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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Scrambled Neurons
    #743423 - 07/13/02 08:34 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Swami tends to believe that the mushroom experience is nothing more than scrambled neurons.

Swami, do you care to explain this? What do you mean by ?scrambled neurons??
Does this mean that whatever happens during the experience is completely random?


Edited by raytrace (07/14/02 04:18 AM)


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Invisiblephrozendata
Carpal Tunnel

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 5,015
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: raytrace]
    #743669 - 07/13/02 11:53 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

No, I think:

- It is your brain creating different perceptions from what is going it. It clues into the disturbances it normally doesnt.

lalalalalallalalala


--------------------
"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving and that's your own self. So you have to begin there, not
outside, not on other people" - Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: raytrace]
    #743679 - 07/13/02 11:58 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Since your post is seemingly directed only at SWAMI, then why didn't you just send him a PM asking this question if you need to know so badly?


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Namaste.


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InvisibleSmack31
Stranger

Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 10,681
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #743707 - 07/13/02 12:22 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

because the response will be in the interest of the general public... duh.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Smack31]
    #743749 - 07/13/02 12:43 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Oh yeah, I forgot...
We all like to follow our characters here on the shroomery as if it were some sort of soap opera. What was I thinking when I made that post....

RS


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Namaste.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #743793 - 07/13/02 01:04 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Since your post is seemingly directed only at SWAMI, then why didn't you just send him a PM asking this question if you need to know so badly?

Ah, the irony here is thick, as the Rebel get's on raytrace's case, then does the exact same thing.

The old "mote in the eye" Biblical quote comes to mind.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: raytrace]
    #743823 - 07/13/02 01:24 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Swami tends to believe that the mushroom experience is nothing more than scrambled neurons.
Have seen no evidence to the contrary. What is the "more" part that you think it offers? It is a new and powerful experience that will have major emotional impact, but unless telepathy (or healing or other mystical power) can be clearly demonstrated to a non-tripping observer, or real knowledge can be brought back, what would you say about these states? I think it is somewhat like dreaming while awake.

Here is the problematic part for believers in other dimensions. How can one say it was the most wonderful thing imaginable and another says it was the blackest trip through hell? Because we are experiencing inner states, not accessing a previously unreachable realm.

Imagine if you were an Aborigine who had no knowledge of modern western man. A camera crew arrives and films your tribe, then plays back the footage for you on a television (which is completely unknown to you). You would believe that there were people or spirits inside of the set.

Same thing for the mushroom. We see images and many believe that they are real inhabitants of anothe plane of existence.

Swami, do you care to explain this? What do you mean by scrambled neurons?
It means simply that normal neuronal functioning is disrupted. This is not opinion, but fact.

Does this means that whatever happens during the experience is completely random?
If your trip is not predictable, then by defintion that would make it random. I know that is not what you meant, so rephrase your question.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisiblethePatient
Criminal Bodhisattva
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Registered: 07/07/02
Posts: 3,289
Loc: Indiana
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #744408 - 07/13/02 08:18 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

How can one say it was the most wonderful thing imaginable and another says it was the blackest trip through hell? Because we are experiencing inner states, not accessing a previously unreachable realm.

This statement does make sense. But why would you conclude that because two people had two different types of trips, that there arent two different types of realms? Ive experienced both horrific and wonderful trips.

Imagine if you were an Aborigine who had no knowledge of modern western man. A camera crew arrives and films your tribe, then plays back the footage for you on a television (which is completely unknown to you). You would believe that there were people or spirits inside of the set.

This is completely different. The Aborigine didnt ingest a mind-altering, natural, drug to see these images. When tripping on mushrooms, its as if you are actually in another world. Not looking at another world, or seeing spirits in a little box.

Same thing for the mushroom. We see images and many believe that they are real inhabitants of anothe plane of existence.

Why not? Why not keep an open mind about this instead of being ignorant and say "this is impossible". Before we discovered the atom, we thought the molecule was the smallest organism in matter. Maybe there is something about the mushroom experience that science hasnt uncovered yet. What if the mushroom experience enheightened our visionary senses so that we could see another frequency, another world. Or maybe the same world, just different settings. Different paths people could have taken, or different events that could have taken place. Atleast, maybe glimpses of it.

Im not saying your wrong, and im not saying im right. But when i see someone so bound to the scientific world, it irritates me. In this Universe there are infinite possibilities. That means the possibilities are endless.
"There are two things that are infinite. The Universe and Human Stupidity. And im not sure about the Universe." - Einstein


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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Offlinedumlovesyou
retired shroomer
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Registered: 05/02/01
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: thePatient]
    #744576 - 07/13/02 11:03 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Dude, Swami is making sense sometimes, and this time makes also. I don't think though that the brain functions not normal. Our brain is just a chemical based stuff that needs "oil" and "gas" . Of course when you put best quality BLUE oil, things change a little bit! You don't know if it works better or worth. FOR ME is better!! SHROOM ON!!


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #744613 - 07/14/02 12:06 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Hang on Swami, what makes you think our brains are functioning correctly when we are in a so-called "normal" state? Arn't our neurons disrupted to prevent the sensory input from our brains overwhelming us?

Clearly our brains have vastly more potential than they need in everyday life and seeing as nature tends not to waste energy creating things that serve no purpose for survival there is most likely a very good reason why it has created brains with this potential.

As for your Aborigine example, that doesn't hold water. I have a PhD in physics and a very good understanding of how the world is "supposed" to be. I still cannot explain the effect mushrooms have on the human brain and there is certainly no scientific explanation that comes close to explaining their extraordinary effects. I could explain to the aborigine in two minutes how a television works. I certainly couldn't explain why mushrooms affect our brains in the way they do in 2 minutes.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (07/14/02 12:27 AM)


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InvisibleNeiL
member

Registered: 01/20/01
Posts: 151
Loc: Scotland, UK
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #744764 - 07/14/02 03:54 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

...but [all] science at the moment couldn't even explain how events on the material/ quantum/ whatever plane results in the experience of a subjective state of consciousness when the brain is 'functioning normally'. So there's certainly not a scientific explanation that comes close to explaining an unmushroomed brain.

No offence, but your argument really doesn't make any sense. Maybe if we make it to the stage where we do understand the scientific nature of conciousness we *might* have some real evidence as to whether the mushroom state is actually a genuine other place but until then i personally believe that the truly open-minded view (which should in theory be the same as a scientific view ) is that we don't have a clue either way.

I'd just relax and enjoy the infinite possibilities


Edited by NeiL (07/14/02 04:02 AM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #744788 - 07/14/02 04:12 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I don?t want to get into the other dimensions/entities stuff for now, I ?ll keep things a bit more simple. On:

normal neuronal functioning is disrupted

yes, it is disrupted, but not in the way that it is disrupted when you have an accident, for example. In the case you are severely hit on the head, what you will experience, will probably be not normal neuronal functioning, but the effects will probably be random. So, the expression ?just scrambled neurons? might be appropriate here. What is maybe ?more?, under the influence of specific substances, is that while they upset the chemical balance of the brain (with one of the effects being the lowering of the threshold at which the neurons fire, thus producing activity that is not there in ordinary circumstances), the results can be meaningful.

In the case of lysergic acid/mescaline/psilocybin, the visual experience following the ingestion of the substance includes geometrical forms from a seemingly endless variety. Now, it seems that there are patterns in the patterns that appear. So, there are these basic motifs that are present in most peoples experiences: spirals, tunnels, honeycombs and cobwebs (the basic groups).

Scientific investigation has revealed that these patterns actually give us hints as to how our brain works. These patterns seem to indicate certain things about the structure and the behaviour of the circuits in our brain. This means that if the wiring (or behaviour) was a bit different, these images would be different. In a way, part (at least) of the visuals reflects the way our brain works. The architecture of the brain is exposed, as Leary had already guessed it.

Spirals and tunnels for example are the mapping of the pattern of neural firing in their cortex (not particularly when you ?re tripping but normally). These patterns emerge from the competing of two opposing forces, in this case inhibition and excitement of neurons. Therefore, psychedelics actually do provide us with insights of how the brain works (maybe even the universe?), but the information has to be somehow decoded.

So, all this visual imagery is not entirely ?random? for one thing. Then I?m guessing that in the rest of the senses, and maybe in feelings/thoughts, probably similar patterns are included. (Thus, you may not be able to predict the trip, but it is not absolutely random either.)

Under the light of these scientific observations, the theory of psilocybin being just a poison to protect the fungus, means you are also poisoned with knowledge.

I think that there are probably a lot more going on, on the more complex forms that appear that have to be carefully examined.



Edited by raytrace (07/14/02 09:53 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #745059 - 07/14/02 08:14 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I could explain to the aborigine in two minutes how a television works. I certainly couldn't explain why mushrooms affect our brains in the way they do in 2 minutes.

Your explaining and their understanding are two different things. What if they just found the television playing with no one around? They would make up myths and hypotheses that would be COMPLETELY wrong.

The mushroom state is so new and powerful to the individual, but he will NOT accept the mystery and hence, makes up myths and hypotheses that are also most likely to be completely wrong.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinellib
journeyman
Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 129
Loc: florida
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: raytrace]
    #745063 - 07/14/02 08:16 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Let me try to add to your post. I believe that the psilocybin affect, effect is not so much the brain functioning in a random, "sick neuron" sense. Psilocibin acts as a general serotonin reuptake inhibitor. There are various medications on the market called SSRI, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Monamine oxidase inhibitors act also to prevent the breakdown of serontonin thereby , possibly increasing the psilocybin effect. prozac and other antidepressants, some are similar in that they prevent the reuptake of serotonin. I am not a pharmacist but do know that there are many different subtypes of serotonin. Additionally, there are many different receptors in the body, opiate receptor, insulin ect. Serotonin acts on serotonin receptors , these receptors are found on other receptors and in many part sof the brain.

different parts of the brain regulate different functions, the cortex namely motor function, limbic system, namely feelings, emotions and sexual desires, parts of the lower brain have huge numbers of serotonin receptors , serotonin is also responsible for parts of the brain that affect the induction of sleep.

serotonin acts like a traffic cop, it has affects on both inhibitory and excitatory affects depending upon the receptor it is interacting with.(other type of receptors)
so if it serves to down regulate and inhibitory and upregulate another, it serves a dual function. our "normal" chemical balance is set in a way that we do filter out much of the unecessary stimuli. If serotonin is increased in the synapse and the affect has the upregulation of a ceratin receptor that affects our vision, our hearing, our emotions our feeelings, our sense of touch, numerous outcomes could be expected.

What sets the regulation as is foun din evryday life, i dont know, what the effects of psilocybin are simply that we can experience thing sthat are enhanced because of altering teh regulatory system. This may be how some people can have altered senses of reality without psilocybin. It is posisble that their neurochemistry is altered from day one. hope this adds to the discussion.


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Anonymous

Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: llib]
    #745086 - 07/14/02 08:30 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

You type very fast.

Gratuitous non sequitur. No need to thank me.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #745407 - 07/14/02 12:12 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

What if they just found the television playing with no one around? They would make up myths and hypotheses that would be COMPLETELY wrong.

Do you KNOW that?

The mushroom state is so new and powerful to the individual, but he will NOT accept the mystery and hence, makes up myths and hypotheses that are also most likely to be completely wrong.

You make a very good point. However, I am not sure I totally agree. We are not talking about people just making up stories out of thin air to explain amazing experiences, I think. Many people, including some very fine authors with some very interesting books, have spent a lifetime of research both scientifically and spiritually to come up with their questions, answers and explanations for the phenomon known as a trip. Now, that doesn't mean that they are right but, IMO, it does mean that their opinion can't be easily disregarded.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Posts: 4,805
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: llib]
    #745702 - 07/14/02 03:01 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

llib-
Man... you are way off on your neurochemistry.
Psiloc(yb)in is NOT an SSRI. You're sooooo wrong.

from MAPS, link here:
http://www.maps.org/research/psilo/azproto.html
first paragraph- "serotonin (5-HT)-2A/2C receptor agonist"
There are many more links, but posting them all would just be a waste of my time.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #746493 - 07/14/02 07:49 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The trouble with the theories that "it's just your brain making up things, it's dreaming while awake" is that I've had vivid dreams all my life but have never had the slightest alien contact dream ever.

So the idea that "It's all because you've read UFO reports" rings a little hollow. If that was the case I would be dreaming about meeting aliens, which i never do. However, when i take mushrooms i encounter aliens on a regular basis.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #746904 - 07/14/02 11:30 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Hang on Swami, what makes you think our brains are functioning correctly when we are in a so-called "normal" state?




Exactly, the so-called "normal" state is subjective and inherent to the meanning society gives to this word. What if the "normal" state is while you're on shrooms ? What if the scrambled neurons exist in the "normal" state and are organized by psilocybin ? What if "normal" is having all the pathways open inside your brain instead of having only the "normal" pathway ? What the hell is "normal" anyway ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: MAIA]
    #747048 - 07/15/02 02:56 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Your nonsensical post is contrarian just to be contrarian.

It is self-evident that people on moderate to high dosages of mushrooms have highly reduced function to interact with society-at-large and consensus reality, shooting your "theory" in the foot.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #747060 - 07/15/02 03:04 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

So the idea that "It's all because you've read UFO reports" rings a little hollow. If that was the case I would be dreaming about meeting aliens, which i never do. However, when i take mushrooms i encounter aliens on a regular basis.

Does it ring hollow that the early (re)explorers of psilocybin, of the last century such as Hoffman, Leary, Wasson and others who were NOT subject to a barrage of UFO/Alien pop culture NEVER mentioned alien visions?

Does it ring hollow that I nore nay of my tripping friends have ever seen/reported alien motifs?

Why do "skeptics" rarely if ever, report these same things? Perhaps because they are not so focused on a fantasy life?

And finally, the question that I have asked a dozen times and have NEVER gotten an answer to: "Why do you hold alien visions to be more important than cartoon (or other dream-like) apparitions?

What makes you think they have more substance or reality than other mushroom-induced imagery?





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinellib
journeyman
Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 129
Loc: florida
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Sclorch]
    #747104 - 07/15/02 03:49 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Tio,
effect is the same, more of the active stuff in the synapse
read for the theme of the paragraph
nor did i say it was a SSRI, it is not a selective reuptake inhibitor,
but an agonist will dump, thereby depleting the precursors
a reuptake, general inhibitor will keep the same stuff in the synapse.

the paper, which is on obssessive compulsive disorders does suggest that the psilocybin works as an agonist through those two subreceptors, thank you for pointing that out.

however, it is irrelevant to th epoint that i was making, again a reuptake inhibitor will do th esame thing, may just take a bit longer, and not a sleective reuptake inhibitor, a generalized one


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #747248 - 07/15/02 05:41 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Does it ring hollow that the early (re)explorers of psilocybin, of the last century such as Hoffman, Leary, Wasson and others who were NOT subject to a barrage of UFO/Alien pop culture NEVER mentioned alien visions?

But we've been through this Swami. Have you read Maria Sabina - Saint mother of the mushrooms? She talks about meeting wierd and strange entities on every other page. Lilly talked about meeting aliens back in '73 with "Center of the cyclone", and it forms the basis of his 1978 autobiography "The Scientist". Mckenna wrote the mushrooms were aliens in '75. There's plenty of evidence man, read around and you'll find it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
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Posts: 4,805
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: llib]
    #747298 - 07/15/02 06:19 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

llib: nor did i say it was a SSRI, it is not a selective reuptake inhibitor,
Really?
What was THIS then?:
Psilocibin acts as a general serotonin reuptake inhibitor.

If you're trying to fool someone into thinking that you were somehow "mistaken" and not OUTRIGHT WRONG, then please continue in this manner. You were wrong. No big deal.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #747439 - 07/15/02 07:26 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Does it ring hollow that the early (re)explorers of psilocybin, of the last century such as Hoffman, Leary, Wasson and others who were NOT subject to a barrage of UFO/Alien pop culture NEVER mentioned alien visions?
Have you ever considered that maybe the aliens didn't choose to start making contact with humans until only 50 years or so ago? Maybe they thought that since we had evolved to a point technologically that we could destroy ourselves as a species, that they would step in and help us.
This isn't my belief, only a return to your narrow sighted questions.


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


Edited by Adamist (07/15/02 09:12 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Adamist]
    #747449 - 07/15/02 07:32 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Have you ever considered that the aliens didn't choose to start making contact with humans until only 50 years or so ago?

So then the 'Virgin' Mary was not actually a virgin artificially inseminated by the greys, but instead had secret carnal relations with one of the Pharisies?


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #747638 - 07/15/02 08:53 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

That is if you take the example of mushrooms, they have pros and cons like any other drug, if you take 20 beers instead of 5 you get drunk, it's all a question of balance between your body and the quantity and quality of the drug, if i want to disconnect from planet earth i would take 10g but if i want to still comunicate and interact i take 3g.
What i want to say is humans can benefit from hallucinogens to understand how alternative consciousness can affect our "personal universe" or how we see reality.
To explain myself i take the words of J.R. Backer.
"
"Normal" and "Altered" States of Consciousness
The theses that one of the brain's primary functions is reality construction and that the mind is an emergent property of the brain involved at least in part in the same task leads to the question of what is the "normal" nature of the relationship between the two. Evolutionary considerations suggest an answer to this question.
Reality construction is essentially an outward-directed process, i.e., it is primarily involved with developing hypotheses about the meaning of the data being fed to the brain by afferent fibers originating in the exteroceptors. To be sure, from time to time unusual or relevant data (such as pain signals) from the interoceptors will attract the attention of the mind, but most of the data the mind is made aware of concerns the world which begins at the outer surface of the skin. This is not surprising, for, as we have seen, an animal must continually monitor the world around it, make hypotheses about what it is experiencing, and check on the "correctness" of these hypotheses.
Following TART (1980), we may refer to this normal pattern of brain-mind functioning as the "baseline" state of consciousness. In humans, one of the chief attributes of this state—and one of the characteristics which distinguishes it from other states of consciousness—is that it is built upon consensus. In the words of BERGER & LUCKMANN (1967:23):

The reality of everyday life... [is] an intersubjective world, a world that I share with others. This intersubjectivity sharply differentiates everyday life from other realities.... I am alone in the world of my dreams, but I know that the world of everyday life is as real to others as it is to myself. Indeed, I cannot exist in everyday life without continually interacting and communicating with others. "

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #748416 - 07/15/02 01:55 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Our brains function using concentrations of neurotransmitters. Like any chemical system, the neurotransmitters establish an equilibrium. What we call a "state" of conciousness is determined by the relative concentrations of these chemicals. These states are altered by the food we eat, the amount of rest we get, general thought processes (more noticable in traumatic events), and chemicals that we put in our bodies. Psilocybin does not "disrupt" normal brain functioning any more than an antidepressent which supposedly helps to "normalize" brain functioning. "Disruption" implies derogitory or chaotic action and at low levels, both drugs can improve mental ability. At high levels they can be disruptive but the designation is arbitrary.

Although psilocybin has not been studied as much as LSD, mescaline, and other psychoactive, nitrogen containing organics, there is enough evidence to gain insight into its action in the brain. Like most biogenic amines , psilocybin may effect the metabolism within the post synaptic cell by binding to serotonin and dopamine receptors much like an SSRI. This would result in a cascade of signal transduction pathways, ultimately resulting in a temporary change in the "balance" or equilibrium of neurotransmitter concentration. The duration of which is entirely dependent on the binding strength or affinity of the molecule to the receptor.


--------------------
:egyptian:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #748577 - 07/15/02 03:35 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

But we've been through this Swami.
Maybe if you had responded the first 3 times when I asked for references...

Have you read Maria Sabina - Saint mother of the mushrooms? She talks about meeting wierd and strange entities on every other page.
So now any "weird entitiy" is an alien? Post a paragraph please where she states that she encountered beings from another solar system.

Lilly talked about meeting aliens back in '73 with "Center of the cyclone", and it forms the basis of his 1978 autobiography "The Scientist".
He talked about a thousand unverifiable things. He was a ketamine junky which make his conclusions somewhat suspect.

Mckenna wrote the mushrooms were aliens in '75.
This is a pathetic sidetrack. He postulated that they might be from space-faring spores with no evidence whatsoever.

This is a FAR cry from experiencing aliens while tripping, which in all his books, he never mentions such a personal encounter.

There's plenty of evidence man, read around and you'll find it.
Books are not evidence.




--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (07/16/02 07:01 AM)


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #748614 - 07/15/02 03:45 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"He talked about a thousand unverifiable things. He was a ketamine junky which make his conclusions somewhat suspect." Centre of the Cyclone was published in 1971, many years before Lilly's involvement with Ketamine


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #749008 - 07/15/02 05:56 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)


Mckenna wrote the mushrooms were aliens in '75.
This is a pathetic sidetrack. He postulated that they might be from space-faring spores with no evidence whatsoever.

And why do you think he said this? Because he'd met fucking aliens on mushrooms you arsehole!

He was a ketamine junky which make his conclusions somewhat suspect.

He was also a man with an intellect so far ahead of yours they are not even comparable. An absolute genius in many fields and a respected lecturer world-wide. Who are you? Some guy who writes on a messageboard who isn't even taken seriously there. And you cast aspersions on John Lilly's intellect?

Books are not evidence.

You argument was because you and none of your mates had ever met entities on mushrooms that meant no-one else had. Or that it all comes from someone watching Communion....LOL...I've pointed out there is vast body of reports going back thousands of years. Including works like the Tibetan book of the dead and near death experiences reported in Plato's works. All report encounters with beatific entities.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: raytrace]
    #749662 - 07/16/02 12:04 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Aliens? they're everywhere, man...EVERYWHERE...(under any discussion topic )


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #750287 - 07/16/02 07:09 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

He was a ketamine junky which make his conclusions somewhat suspect.

And you cast aspersions on John Lilly's intellect?

Like many here, you have a severe reading disorder. I made ZERO mention of his intellect. Just like you see aliens where I don't, you also see words where there aren't any.

There likewise was no casting of aspersions, Lilly himself admitted that he had a problem.

My intelligence or lack thereof, is also totally irrelevant to the thread. Try digesting the words before you go off on an emotional rant.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #750288 - 07/16/02 07:09 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Fair enough - you got me there.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #750586 - 07/16/02 09:08 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

yawn...

yes swami, that would be good except he wrote "The Scientist" long after he was off Ketamine. Therefore his intellect wasn't compromised in any way. You follow?

Your intelligence is central to this thread, if you had any you wouldn't make the moronic points you're making.

Cheers!


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #750847 - 07/16/02 10:58 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"Like many here, you have a severe reading disorder."

Swami 1
The rest 0

" you also see words where there aren't any."

Sure, where's that ketamine stuff you wrote about J. Lilly ?

"Try digesting the words before you go off on an emotional rant."

That's what i sometimes call eating shit without complaining. You make people rant, ever wonder why Swami ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: raytrace]
    #750877 - 07/16/02 11:09 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

tunnels, spirals, honeycombs, cobwebs (familiar to anyone??)



the 4 basic groups of patterns as categorized by Kluver (1920)

mirroring functions of the brain, according to Jack Cowan (mathematician & neuroscientist, University of Chicago)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: MAIA]
    #751017 - 07/16/02 12:30 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

That's what i sometimes call eating shit without complaining. You make people rant, ever wonder why Swami ?

I can make no one do anything. If one is uncentered and has their precious beliefs questioned, then they quickly reveal their true nature.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #751830 - 07/16/02 06:25 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

You arn't questioning anyones beliefs. You are making a series of profoundly ignorant statements that I have refuted every time with simple knowledge and logic.

Lilly wrote Center of the Cyclone before he even tried Ketamine and reported encounters with aliens in that. Your "argument" is destroyed...so what else is new...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #752318 - 07/16/02 11:10 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"I can make no one do anything"
Sure, afterall this is the internet and all we do is use the keyboard. Words are power budy, they can arise all kind of feelings and thoughts, anyway i think you make people write, at least.

"If one is uncentered and has their precious beliefs questioned, then they quickly reveal their true nature."

Why the rhetorical speech ? Anyway, i have no problem revealing my nature, if somebody question my beliefs then it's a good excuse to start a dialog or conversation, people can learn this way you know, if that has to do with my nature then excuse me for listening, accepting and learning others points of view. On the contrary, your blind rationalist beliefs give you a scientific prove wich you consider as unquestionable, that way, debate my ass, others differences will never make any difference to you.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #752405 - 07/17/02 02:15 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

...so what else is new...

5 requests later, and still no Maria Sabina quote to back up your hypothesis. Surprising? NO! That would do more to back-up your case, than all of the empty blathering.

...so what else is new...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: MAIA]
    #752409 - 07/17/02 02:22 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Words are power budy, they can arise all kind of feelings and thoughts,
True enough, but only if those thoughts and feelings already exist inside the writer. The anger someone displays is not created by my words, but revealed. The ad hominem is always a sign of frustration and emotional immaturity.

Why the rhetorical speech ?
Why the rhetorical question?

On the contrary, your blind rationalist beliefs ...
Someone's inability to back up their claim with their own references, has nothing to do with my beliefs.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #752500 - 07/17/02 04:15 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"The anger someone displays is not created by my words, but revealed. The ad hominem is always a sign of frustration and emotional immaturity"

No, it's a fallacy, it's related to the nature of the argument itself, it has nothing to do with frustration or immaturity. The reason why an Ad Hominem is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. On the other hand, you should regard at Ad Hominem Tu Quoque, the fact that a person's claims are not consistent with his actions might indicate that the person is a hypocrite but this does not prove his claims are false.
I must confess (due to your systematic use of scientific proves) you have strong deductive arguments but that doesn't make others arguments false, they can be discussed and be very true also, although they incur into more inductive fallacies.

"Why the rhetorical question?"
Rhetorical ? Wich way ? Now i'm being rhetorical.

"has nothing to do with my beliefs."
You're right, change the word "beliefs" to "conclusions".

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #752514 - 07/17/02 04:30 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry Swami but I told you to read Saint mother of the mushrooms about 3 weeks ago. Have you done so? Or are you happy to stay ignorant?

Try Center of the cyclone while you're at it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #752521 - 07/17/02 04:37 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Gee, which is easier, for me to purchase yet another book, or for you to post ONE paragraph from it to whet my appetite?

WHERE, OH WHERE are my beloved aliens?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #753069 - 07/17/02 08:44 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Swami-

Boy are you patient. I would've thrown out one of those forever-functional conversation stoppers a few posts back.
My current favorite: Fuck you, shut up.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: MAIA]
    #753101 - 07/17/02 08:55 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"No, it's a fallacy, it's related to the nature of the argument itself, it has nothing to do with frustration or immaturity. The reason why an Ad Hominem is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. On the other hand, you should regard at Ad Hominem Tu Quoque, the fact that a person's claims are not consistent with his actions might indicate that the person is a hypocrite but this does not prove his claims are false."

I am very impressed! I think Swami was referring to name-calling in an argument which is a kind of ad hom at times. "You are wrong because you're fat and ugly."

De gustibus non disputantum est.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #753351 - 07/17/02 10:41 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I'm trying to educate you Swami. I'm tired of spoon-feeding you because you don't seem to learn anything.

Search the net and see what you find if you are too ignorant to read the book.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #754493 - 07/17/02 07:03 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Now it's Swami who's being spoon-fed?

This is confusing... sounds like ruffled feathers and bunched panties.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #754524 - 07/17/02 07:08 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

if you are too ignorant to read the book

That doesn't even make sense.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #755283 - 07/18/02 04:39 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

you are too ignorant to read the book. The knowledge is waiting for you and you refuse to educate yourself.

It's called ignorance.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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