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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
#9819808 - 02/18/09 12:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Zanthius said:
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Icelander said: Some drugs are more addictive and prone to abuse but that is all. I know some who use heroin as a tool for physiological discovery and it seems to have gotten them good results. I know of people who took lots of hallucinogens and completely melted down. It's not the tool but the user.
Yes, there are ALWAYS exceptions to the norm, but like I said - there is a much higher percentage of the people using heroin that destroys themselves, compared to magic mushrooms.
You can always find exceptions, but the main focus should be upon the statistics, not upon the exceptions.
But you are claiming that these substances cause some type of enlightenment. From posting here for years and listening to all the shroomers talk and knowing those who used them for over thirty five years and having done them myself I would easily conclude that shrooms do not enlighten to any great degree and that those who do not use can attain the same levels of awareness without said use. Many who used to use shrooms and claimed to have become enlightened from said use often become neocons or conservative or against drugs for their kids, by the age of forty. I lived through the 60s and 70s and I witnessed this first hand.
To conclude shrooms in the right persons hands can help as a psychological tool but for the majority it is a simple distraction from the life they are about to adopt full time.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Zanthius
Mean Alien
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Icelander]
#9819892 - 02/18/09 12:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: But you are claiming that these substances cause some type of enlightenment. From posting here for years and listening to all the shroomers talk and knowing those who used them for over thirty five years and having done them myself I would easily conclude that shrooms do not enlighten to any great degree and that those who do not use can attain the same levels of awareness without said use. Many who used to use shrooms and claimed to have become enlightened from said use often become neocons or conservative or against drugs for their kids, by the age of forty. I lived through the 60s and 70s and I witnessed this first hand.
To conclude shrooms in the right persons hands can help as a psychological tool but for the majority it is a simple distraction from the life they are about to adopt full time.
Those parents who are afraid of giving magic mushrooms to their children, while feeding them with ethanol and nicotine cigarettes, probably don't know much about the health risks from ethanol and nicotine cigarettes compared to magic mushrooms. But of course, most parents want their children to "fit into society", and when our society is such that most people are poisoning themselves with ethanol instead of using magic mushrooms, then you better tell your children to drink ethanol while keeping them away from magic mushrooms. Yes indeed, magic mushrooms are a distraction for people who want to fit into the society we have today.
There is a lot more to enlightenment than magic mushrooms, but compared to ethanol, magic mushrooms definitely enlighten people. I want to change our civilization, so that people can use magic mushrooms, and still fit into society. If a larger percentage of the population uses magic mushrooms, then of course it is more easy for individuals using magic mushrooms to fit into society.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
#9819929 - 02/18/09 01:05 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well I think all drugs should be legal. But that would not IMO insure the "evolution" of culture. It would however be an interesting experiment.
You seem to have a prejudice against alcohol. But do you really think that alcohol makes people act negatively?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Zanthius
Mean Alien
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Icelander]
#9820003 - 02/18/09 01:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Well I think all drugs should be legal. But that would not IMO insure the "evolution" of culture. It would however be an interesting experiment.
You seem to have a prejudice against alcohol. But do you really think that alcohol makes people act negatively?
Not necessarily. I drink red wine myself in moderation, but ethanol is a completely different drug than psilocybin. Ethanol is a good social drug, because when it numbs the superego, people usually speak more directly from their egos. People are released from many of the social restrains of the superego when they are under the influence of ethanol.
Of course, those people who have a harmonious integration between the superego, and the ego, don't need ethanol in order to say what is on their minds. But a lot of people have a disharmonious relationship between the ego and the superego, and then ethanol helps to release them from the restrains of the superego.
Psilocybin doesn't numb the superego, but rather numbs the ego. So when people are under the influence of psilocybin, they are released from many of the restrains of their egos. I consider the superego to be the higher self, while I consider the ego to be the lower self.
I certainly think it would be better for our civilization, if we stimulated our higher selves with psilocybin, just as much as we are stimulating our lower selves with ethanol.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Icelander]
#9820403 - 02/18/09 02:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: From posting here for years and listening to all the shroomers talk and knowing those who used them for over thirty five years and having done them myself I would easily conclude that shrooms do not enlighten to any great degree and that those who do not use can attain the same levels of awareness without said use. Many who used to use shrooms and claimed to have become enlightened from said use often become neocons or conservative or against drugs for their kids, by the age of forty. I lived through the 60s and 70s and I witnessed this first hand.
To conclude shrooms in the right persons hands can help as a psychological tool but for the majority it is a simple distraction from the life they are about to adopt full time.
I totally agree.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
#9820513 - 02/18/09 03:06 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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But a lot of people have a disharmonious relationship between the ego and the superego
But not you and I of course.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: mushroomstudy]
#9823323 - 02/18/09 10:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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mushroomstudy said: Ever taken Psychedelic Mushrooms? You are needed for a study exploring psychedelic mushrooms and spirituality. It involves only one questionnaire (approximately 15-20 minutes) and participation is VOLUNTARY AND ANONYMOUS If interested please go to www.mushroomstudy.com -or contact Kevin Bunch, M.A. at mushroomstudy@gmail.com.
Look at his username!
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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mushroomstudy
Researcher
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Poid]
#9823713 - 02/18/09 11:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just because my username has to do with the study that I am conducting does not make it spam. Thanks to all that have responded so far!
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: zouden]
#9823812 - 02/19/09 12:03 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hell-o, zouden. Did you read this study? (Psychopharmacology 2006 187:268-283) The study should be a blueprint on how not to run an investigation. First of all anyone with experience was excluded. All of the test subjects were active in religious activities. It was clinical and structured for a particular result. The men who ran this investigation have no qualifications to investigate psychoactive phenomenon, they are experts in brain chemistry. It was bankrolled by the "Council on Spiritual Practices", and I could go on and on. It's like I said before, the wrong people asking the wrong questions.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: mushroomstudy]
#9823829 - 02/19/09 12:07 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
mushroomstudy said: Just because my username has to do with the study that I am conducting does not make it spam. Thanks to all that have responded so far!
I'm going to be a part of this study, too.
You just seem like a spammer to me, can you blame me?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (02/19/09 12:12 AM)
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Icelander]
#9823952 - 02/19/09 12:32 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have a little bit of experience also, and I would agree with you. Many complain that they have never had a spiritual experience, and feel left out. However, I think that LSD,shrooms, and cactus..., have the ability to open a door, but few recognize the opportunity. Proper use of substances such as LSD could be a powerful tool, but current restrictions and prejudices have resulted in premature conclusions.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: C.M. Mann]
#9824142 - 02/19/09 01:11 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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C.M. Mann said: Hell-o, zouden. Did you read this study?
I've read it before, when it first came out.
Quote:
(Psychopharmacology 2006 187:268-283) The study should be a blueprint on how not to run an investigation. First of all anyone with experience was excluded. All of the test subjects were active in religious activities.
That's right. They wanted to know if people think mushrooms are spiritual. So they set out to find what kind of things people report about their first mushroom experience. A controlled double-blind trial is a good way to do this. And if religious people describe their first experience as being religious/spiritual, then that's quite interesting, don't you think?
Quote:
It was clinical and structured for a particular result. The men who ran this investigation have no qualifications to investigate psychoactive phenomenon, they are experts in brain chemistry.
You mean scientists from the Johns Hopkins University Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences? They aren't qualified? Who is, then?
Quote:
It was bankrolled by the "Council on Spiritual Practices", and I could go on and on. It's like I said before, the wrong people asking the wrong questions.
It was funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse as well as the Council on Spiritual Practices (with whom it was performed in collaboration). The latter group is associated with Alexander Shulgin.
That study found that, indeed, psilocybin does cause people to have a 'spiritual' experience to an extent which is not attributable to chance. This is something that a lot of us know, but to actually see it measured in a double-blind trial and published in a peer-reviewed journal is pretty signficant. Quote:
"At 2 months, the volunteers rated the psilocybin experience as having substantial personal meaning and spiritual significance and attributed to the experience sustained positive changes in attitudes and behavior consistent with changes rated by community observers."
Now, please, tell me what is wrong with the science in this paper, and why you disagree with its findings. I think practically everyone on this forum will agree that a scientific paper funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse that finds psilocybin causes "sustained positive changes in attitudes and behavior" is a Very Good Thing.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Zanthius
Mean Alien
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Icelander]
#9824627 - 02/19/09 04:20 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: But a lot of people have a disharmonious relationship between the ego and the superego
But not you and I of course.
Why not? It is not of any relevance anyhow. People that have a disharmonious relationship between the ego and the superego, often have a highly developed superego that suppresses the ego. These people are often highly intelligent.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Poid]
#9824630 - 02/19/09 04:29 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Poid said: Look at his username!
The dude is posting about mushroom studies, on a MUSHROOM WEBSITE, and he's a spammer? If his name was different, then everything would have been great, I suspect.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9824647 - 02/19/09 04:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah there's a pretty big difference between spamming and simply trying to find volunteers for a free survey about the very thing that this website is about.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: zouden]
#9824673 - 02/19/09 05:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I just found him slightly suspicious, and my judgment was made only in defense of this community.
Sue me.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Poid]
#9824680 - 02/19/09 05:23 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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You're defending the community against what, spread of knowledge? It seems so
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9824755 - 02/19/09 06:23 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, I just thought he might have been a spammer, and I just wanted everyone to think twice before taking him seriously.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Poid]
#9825000 - 02/19/09 07:46 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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And did you actually make an improvement to the website or users, by posting he's a spammer? Smells like bull shit to me.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9825021 - 02/19/09 07:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Apparently not, but I tried.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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