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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Scrambled Neurons
    #743423 - 07/13/02 10:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Swami tends to believe that the mushroom experience is nothing more than scrambled neurons.

Swami, do you care to explain this? What do you mean by ?scrambled neurons??
Does this mean that whatever happens during the experience is completely random?


Edited by raytrace (07/14/02 06:18 AM)


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Invisiblephrozendata
Carpal Tunnel

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 5,015
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: raytrace]
    #743669 - 07/13/02 01:53 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No, I think:

- It is your brain creating different perceptions from what is going it. It clues into the disturbances it normally doesnt.

lalalalalallalalala


--------------------
"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving and that's your own self. So you have to begin there, not
outside, not on other people" - Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: raytrace]
    #743679 - 07/13/02 01:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Since your post is seemingly directed only at SWAMI, then why didn't you just send him a PM asking this question if you need to know so badly?


--------------------
Namaste.


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InvisibleSmack31
Stranger

Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 10,680
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #743707 - 07/13/02 02:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

because the response will be in the interest of the general public... duh.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Smack31]
    #743749 - 07/13/02 02:43 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Oh yeah, I forgot...
We all like to follow our characters here on the shroomery as if it were some sort of soap opera. What was I thinking when I made that post....

RS


--------------------
Namaste.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #743793 - 07/13/02 03:04 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Since your post is seemingly directed only at SWAMI, then why didn't you just send him a PM asking this question if you need to know so badly?

Ah, the irony here is thick, as the Rebel get's on raytrace's case, then does the exact same thing.

The old "mote in the eye" Biblical quote comes to mind.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Posts: 15,413
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: raytrace]
    #743823 - 07/13/02 03:24 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Swami tends to believe that the mushroom experience is nothing more than scrambled neurons.
Have seen no evidence to the contrary. What is the "more" part that you think it offers? It is a new and powerful experience that will have major emotional impact, but unless telepathy (or healing or other mystical power) can be clearly demonstrated to a non-tripping observer, or real knowledge can be brought back, what would you say about these states? I think it is somewhat like dreaming while awake.

Here is the problematic part for believers in other dimensions. How can one say it was the most wonderful thing imaginable and another says it was the blackest trip through hell? Because we are experiencing inner states, not accessing a previously unreachable realm.

Imagine if you were an Aborigine who had no knowledge of modern western man. A camera crew arrives and films your tribe, then plays back the footage for you on a television (which is completely unknown to you). You would believe that there were people or spirits inside of the set.

Same thing for the mushroom. We see images and many believe that they are real inhabitants of anothe plane of existence.

Swami, do you care to explain this? What do you mean by scrambled neurons?
It means simply that normal neuronal functioning is disrupted. This is not opinion, but fact.

Does this means that whatever happens during the experience is completely random?
If your trip is not predictable, then by defintion that would make it random. I know that is not what you meant, so rephrase your question.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisiblethePatient
Criminal Bodhisattva
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Registered: 07/07/02
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #744408 - 07/13/02 10:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

How can one say it was the most wonderful thing imaginable and another says it was the blackest trip through hell? Because we are experiencing inner states, not accessing a previously unreachable realm.

This statement does make sense. But why would you conclude that because two people had two different types of trips, that there arent two different types of realms? Ive experienced both horrific and wonderful trips.

Imagine if you were an Aborigine who had no knowledge of modern western man. A camera crew arrives and films your tribe, then plays back the footage for you on a television (which is completely unknown to you). You would believe that there were people or spirits inside of the set.

This is completely different. The Aborigine didnt ingest a mind-altering, natural, drug to see these images. When tripping on mushrooms, its as if you are actually in another world. Not looking at another world, or seeing spirits in a little box.

Same thing for the mushroom. We see images and many believe that they are real inhabitants of anothe plane of existence.

Why not? Why not keep an open mind about this instead of being ignorant and say "this is impossible". Before we discovered the atom, we thought the molecule was the smallest organism in matter. Maybe there is something about the mushroom experience that science hasnt uncovered yet. What if the mushroom experience enheightened our visionary senses so that we could see another frequency, another world. Or maybe the same world, just different settings. Different paths people could have taken, or different events that could have taken place. Atleast, maybe glimpses of it.

Im not saying your wrong, and im not saying im right. But when i see someone so bound to the scientific world, it irritates me. In this Universe there are infinite possibilities. That means the possibilities are endless.
"There are two things that are infinite. The Universe and Human Stupidity. And im not sure about the Universe." - Einstein


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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Offlinedumlovesyou
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Registered: 05/02/01
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: thePatient]
    #744576 - 07/14/02 01:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Dude, Swami is making sense sometimes, and this time makes also. I don't think though that the brain functions not normal. Our brain is just a chemical based stuff that needs "oil" and "gas" . Of course when you put best quality BLUE oil, things change a little bit! You don't know if it works better or worth. FOR ME is better!! SHROOM ON!!


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #744613 - 07/14/02 02:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Hang on Swami, what makes you think our brains are functioning correctly when we are in a so-called "normal" state? Arn't our neurons disrupted to prevent the sensory input from our brains overwhelming us?

Clearly our brains have vastly more potential than they need in everyday life and seeing as nature tends not to waste energy creating things that serve no purpose for survival there is most likely a very good reason why it has created brains with this potential.

As for your Aborigine example, that doesn't hold water. I have a PhD in physics and a very good understanding of how the world is "supposed" to be. I still cannot explain the effect mushrooms have on the human brain and there is certainly no scientific explanation that comes close to explaining their extraordinary effects. I could explain to the aborigine in two minutes how a television works. I certainly couldn't explain why mushrooms affect our brains in the way they do in 2 minutes.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (07/14/02 02:27 AM)


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InvisibleNeiL
member

Registered: 01/21/01
Posts: 151
Loc: Scotland, UK
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #744764 - 07/14/02 05:54 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

...but [all] science at the moment couldn't even explain how events on the material/ quantum/ whatever plane results in the experience of a subjective state of consciousness when the brain is 'functioning normally'. So there's certainly not a scientific explanation that comes close to explaining an unmushroomed brain.

No offence, but your argument really doesn't make any sense. Maybe if we make it to the stage where we do understand the scientific nature of conciousness we *might* have some real evidence as to whether the mushroom state is actually a genuine other place but until then i personally believe that the truly open-minded view (which should in theory be the same as a scientific view ) is that we don't have a clue either way.

I'd just relax and enjoy the infinite possibilities


Edited by NeiL (07/14/02 06:02 AM)


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #744788 - 07/14/02 06:12 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I don?t want to get into the other dimensions/entities stuff for now, I ?ll keep things a bit more simple. On:

normal neuronal functioning is disrupted

yes, it is disrupted, but not in the way that it is disrupted when you have an accident, for example. In the case you are severely hit on the head, what you will experience, will probably be not normal neuronal functioning, but the effects will probably be random. So, the expression ?just scrambled neurons? might be appropriate here. What is maybe ?more?, under the influence of specific substances, is that while they upset the chemical balance of the brain (with one of the effects being the lowering of the threshold at which the neurons fire, thus producing activity that is not there in ordinary circumstances), the results can be meaningful.

In the case of lysergic acid/mescaline/psilocybin, the visual experience following the ingestion of the substance includes geometrical forms from a seemingly endless variety. Now, it seems that there are patterns in the patterns that appear. So, there are these basic motifs that are present in most peoples experiences: spirals, tunnels, honeycombs and cobwebs (the basic groups).

Scientific investigation has revealed that these patterns actually give us hints as to how our brain works. These patterns seem to indicate certain things about the structure and the behaviour of the circuits in our brain. This means that if the wiring (or behaviour) was a bit different, these images would be different. In a way, part (at least) of the visuals reflects the way our brain works. The architecture of the brain is exposed, as Leary had already guessed it.

Spirals and tunnels for example are the mapping of the pattern of neural firing in their cortex (not particularly when you ?re tripping but normally). These patterns emerge from the competing of two opposing forces, in this case inhibition and excitement of neurons. Therefore, psychedelics actually do provide us with insights of how the brain works (maybe even the universe?), but the information has to be somehow decoded.

So, all this visual imagery is not entirely ?random? for one thing. Then I?m guessing that in the rest of the senses, and maybe in feelings/thoughts, probably similar patterns are included. (Thus, you may not be able to predict the trip, but it is not absolutely random either.)

Under the light of these scientific observations, the theory of psilocybin being just a poison to protect the fungus, means you are also poisoned with knowledge.

I think that there are probably a lot more going on, on the more complex forms that appear that have to be carefully examined.



Edited by raytrace (07/14/02 11:53 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #745059 - 07/14/02 10:14 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I could explain to the aborigine in two minutes how a television works. I certainly couldn't explain why mushrooms affect our brains in the way they do in 2 minutes.

Your explaining and their understanding are two different things. What if they just found the television playing with no one around? They would make up myths and hypotheses that would be COMPLETELY wrong.

The mushroom state is so new and powerful to the individual, but he will NOT accept the mystery and hence, makes up myths and hypotheses that are also most likely to be completely wrong.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinellib
journeyman
Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 129
Loc: florida
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: raytrace]
    #745063 - 07/14/02 10:16 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Let me try to add to your post. I believe that the psilocybin affect, effect is not so much the brain functioning in a random, "sick neuron" sense. Psilocibin acts as a general serotonin reuptake inhibitor. There are various medications on the market called SSRI, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Monamine oxidase inhibitors act also to prevent the breakdown of serontonin thereby , possibly increasing the psilocybin effect. prozac and other antidepressants, some are similar in that they prevent the reuptake of serotonin. I am not a pharmacist but do know that there are many different subtypes of serotonin. Additionally, there are many different receptors in the body, opiate receptor, insulin ect. Serotonin acts on serotonin receptors , these receptors are found on other receptors and in many part sof the brain.

different parts of the brain regulate different functions, the cortex namely motor function, limbic system, namely feelings, emotions and sexual desires, parts of the lower brain have huge numbers of serotonin receptors , serotonin is also responsible for parts of the brain that affect the induction of sleep.

serotonin acts like a traffic cop, it has affects on both inhibitory and excitatory affects depending upon the receptor it is interacting with.(other type of receptors)
so if it serves to down regulate and inhibitory and upregulate another, it serves a dual function. our "normal" chemical balance is set in a way that we do filter out much of the unecessary stimuli. If serotonin is increased in the synapse and the affect has the upregulation of a ceratin receptor that affects our vision, our hearing, our emotions our feeelings, our sense of touch, numerous outcomes could be expected.

What sets the regulation as is foun din evryday life, i dont know, what the effects of psilocybin are simply that we can experience thing sthat are enhanced because of altering teh regulatory system. This may be how some people can have altered senses of reality without psilocybin. It is posisble that their neurochemistry is altered from day one. hope this adds to the discussion.


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Anonymous

Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: llib]
    #745086 - 07/14/02 10:30 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You type very fast.

Gratuitous non sequitur. No need to thank me.


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #745407 - 07/14/02 02:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

What if they just found the television playing with no one around? They would make up myths and hypotheses that would be COMPLETELY wrong.

Do you KNOW that?

The mushroom state is so new and powerful to the individual, but he will NOT accept the mystery and hence, makes up myths and hypotheses that are also most likely to be completely wrong.

You make a very good point. However, I am not sure I totally agree. We are not talking about people just making up stories out of thin air to explain amazing experiences, I think. Many people, including some very fine authors with some very interesting books, have spent a lifetime of research both scientifically and spiritually to come up with their questions, answers and explanations for the phenomon known as a trip. Now, that doesn't mean that they are right but, IMO, it does mean that their opinion can't be easily disregarded.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: llib]
    #745702 - 07/14/02 05:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

llib-
Man... you are way off on your neurochemistry.
Psiloc(yb)in is NOT an SSRI. You're sooooo wrong.

from MAPS, link here:
http://www.maps.org/research/psilo/azproto.html
first paragraph- "serotonin (5-HT)-2A/2C receptor agonist"
There are many more links, but posting them all would just be a waste of my time.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Swami]
    #746493 - 07/14/02 09:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The trouble with the theories that "it's just your brain making up things, it's dreaming while awake" is that I've had vivid dreams all my life but have never had the slightest alien contact dream ever.

So the idea that "It's all because you've read UFO reports" rings a little hollow. If that was the case I would be dreaming about meeting aliens, which i never do. However, when i take mushrooms i encounter aliens on a regular basis.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: Xlea321]
    #746904 - 07/15/02 01:30 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

Hang on Swami, what makes you think our brains are functioning correctly when we are in a so-called "normal" state?




Exactly, the so-called "normal" state is subjective and inherent to the meanning society gives to this word. What if the "normal" state is while you're on shrooms ? What if the scrambled neurons exist in the "normal" state and are organized by psilocybin ? What if "normal" is having all the pathways open inside your brain instead of having only the "normal" pathway ? What the hell is "normal" anyway ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Scrambled Neurons [Re: MAIA]
    #747048 - 07/15/02 04:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Your nonsensical post is contrarian just to be contrarian.

It is self-evident that people on moderate to high dosages of mushrooms have highly reduced function to interact with society-at-large and consensus reality, shooting your "theory" in the foot.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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