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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9818631 - 02/18/09 07:25 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Also, not ALL the people using psychedelics have the same experiences. There are people who experience bliss and people who experience terror, there are people who don't change their behavior a bit as a result of a psychedelic experience, there are people who choose to improve their personalities, ans there are people who even choose to harm others or themselves, after tripping. How do yoy explain all these variations?




It is very easy for me to explain these variations, because I said that some of what these substances are doing to people, might be to bring to surface aspects of their personality. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it is all they are doing.


Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Experiencing primitive aspects of one's personality doesn't have to be a bad experience and it doesn't implicitly mean that the result of experiencing these primitive states will have any negative effects. I think that a human being needs to be completely aware of the entirety of their being, completely accepting to every detail no matter how inconvenient it might feel, and aware of the fact that none of these aspects are fully defining who they are. There has to be a balance between the primitive and the "higher" aspects of oneself, and in my opinion it is detrimental to the psychological health to ignore certain traits that we possess.




I agree, but our civilization is drinking way too much ethanol, and using way too little psilocybin, in order to have balance between the higher influences and the primitive influence. If we are going to have a balance between the higher influences and the primitive influences, then we should use as much magic mushrooms as we are drinking alcohol in our civilization.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
    #9818751 - 02/18/09 08:24 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It is very easy for me to explain these variations, because I said that some of what these substances are doing to people, might be to bring to surface aspects of their personality. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it is all they are doing.




What else do they bring to the surface?

Quote:

I agree, but our civilization is drinking way too much ethanol, and using way too little psilocybin, in order to have balance between the higher influences and the primitive influence. If we are going to have a balance between the higher influences and the primitive influences, then we should use as much magic mushrooms as we are drinking alcohol in our civilization.




In the same way mushrooms can effect people in so many different ways, the same thing goes for ethanol. The imbalance doesn't necessarily come from how much of a substance compared to the other one consumes, but exactly from not accepting parts of our personality. Some people aren't even aware of their most frequent thoughts and the manner in which these are producing different emotions and attitudes, so I think that this goes to say a lot about lack of balance.
Mushrooms don't possess any special power, even though the effects can be so overwhelming, and thinking that they might be what "saves" human kind is naive. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9819361 - 02/18/09 11:10 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
What else do they bring to the surface?




They alter the way you are. Psilocybin alters your consciousness to perceive things you don't perceive in your sober state of mind, while ethanol alters your consciousness to perceive less than you do in your sober state of mind.


Quote:


In the same way mushrooms can effect people in so many different ways, the same thing goes for ethanol. The imbalance doesn't necessarily come from how much of a substance compared to the other one consumes, but exactly from not accepting parts of our personality. Some people aren't even aware of their most frequent thoughts and the manner in which these are producing different emotions and attitudes, so I think that this goes to say a lot about lack of balance.
Mushrooms don't possess any special power, even though the effects can be so overwhelming, and thinking that they might be what "saves" human kind is naive. :shrug:




Who said anything about mushrooms saving humanity? I said that our civilization is consuming too much ethanol and too little psilocybin. Even if it isn't necessary to consume a completely equal amount of magic mushrooms and ethanol in order to have some balance, our civilization now consumes a thousandfold more ethanol than magic mushrooms, and it definitely wouldn't hurt our civilization to consume a little less ethanol and a little more magic mushrooms.

And yes, you should have balance in all other aspects of your life as well. Regarding how much you are eating, regarding how much you are getting of all the different vitamins, and regarding how much you are exercising. It is not good to get too much of anything, and it is not good to get too little of something you need.

Edited by Zanthius (02/18/09 11:22 AM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
    #9819384 - 02/18/09 11:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

They alter the way you are.




So does ethanol

Quote:

Psilocybin alters your consciousness to perceive things you don't perceive in your sober state of mind, while ethanol alters your consciousness to perceive less than you do in your sober state of mind.




Ethanol alters one's consciousness to perceive things you don't perceive in your sober state, too. I really don't understand how you determined, for each and every individual, that ethanol makes one perceive "less". :confuesd:

Quote:

Who said anything about mushrooms saving humanity? I said that our civilization is consuming too much ethanol and too little psilocybin.




Says you. Obviously, this opinion isn't shared by those who consume ethanol. :shrug:

Quote:

Even if it isn't necessary to consume a completely equal amount of magic mushrooms and ethanol in order to have some balance, our civilization now consumes a thousandfold more ethanol than magic mushrooms, and it definitely wouldn't hurt our civilization to consume a little less ethanol and a little more magic mushrooms.




You can't be sure of the outcome of something that never happened.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineDiaboleros
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
    #9819388 - 02/18/09 11:16 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Indeed, imagine all alcohol replaced by shrooms. Drugging the whole of society with shrooms instead of retarding alcholo would definately turn the world into a better place. It will atleast decrease traffic accidents :P I think the power of the mushroom is hugely underestimated. The strength of the drug is that it forces us to see the social matrix we created, weather we like it or not.

And in my experience, in relation to the discussion above, alcohol mutes all your senses, and mushrooms do the exact opposite.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9819402 - 02/18/09 11:19 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The world would definately turn into a better place.




You know this how?

Quote:

It's the drug that forces us to see the social matrix we created, weather we like it or not.




Nope, it doesn't "force" us to do anything - if someone does it, it is because they wanted to. There are lots of people which are perfectly fine in this social matirx, and trip at the same time.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9819441 - 02/18/09 11:27 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Ethanol alters one's consciousness to perceive things you don't perceive in your sober state, too. I really don't understand how you determined, for each and every individual, that ethanol makes one perceive "less". :confuesd:




Well, I only perceive less when I am under the influence of ethanol, and never ever do I perceive things I don't perceive in my sober state of mind, while I am under the influence of ethanol.

When I am under the influence of psilocybin, I always perceive things I don't perceive in my sober state of mind, just like most of the other people that have consumed magic mushrooms.

Quote:


Says you. Obviously, this opinion isn't shared by those who consume ethanol. :shrug:




Obviously not, but most of these people have no experience with magic mushrooms.

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InvisibleZanthius
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9819460 - 02/18/09 11:31 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Nope, it doesn't "force" us to do anything - if someone does it, it is because they wanted to. There are lots of people which are perfectly fine in this social matirx, and trip at the same time.




Okay. Prove to us that it doesn't "force" us to do anything. You always claim proof from everybody else, so give us some proof yourself.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
    #9819474 - 02/18/09 11:33 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Obviously not, but most of these people have no experience with magic mushrooms.

Take a trip to the Pub and other forums here.

And I've certainly known very many to take shrooms and learn nothing along the lines you mention. In fact I would say the majority from what it looks like here.

The person who is going to know something is going to know it because it's there nature to follow that path. Shrooms may or not be a helpful tool and the same goes with alcohol, heroin, speed, peyote, XTC, and Vegetarianism and Guru worship IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleZanthius
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Registered: 02/05/09
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Icelander]
    #9819511 - 02/18/09 11:42 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The person who is going to know something is going to know it because it's there nature to follow that path. Shrooms may or not be a helpful tool and the same goes with alcohol, heroin, speed, peyote, XTC, and Vegetarianism and Guru worship IMO.




You seem to imply that "all drugs" have the same value as tools, and this isn't statistically true. There is a much higher percentage of the people using heroin that destroys themselves, compared to the people using magic mushrooms.  Some drugs are much more addictive and harmful to the body, than what other drugs are.

It is possible to measure statistically what happens to people using different drugs, and I would say there is a lot more positive influence from the psychedelics, than from the other types of drugs.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
    #9819518 - 02/18/09 11:46 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Some drugs are more addictive and prone to abuse but that is all. I know some who use heroin as a tool for physiological discovery and it seems to have gotten them good results. I know of people who took lots of hallucinogens and completely melted down. It's not the tool but the user.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Icelander]
    #9819550 - 02/18/09 11:52 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Some drugs are more addictive and prone to abuse but that is all. I know some who use heroin as a tool for physiological discovery and it seems to have gotten them good results. I know of people who took lots of hallucinogens and completely melted down. It's not the tool but the user.




Yes, there are ALWAYS exceptions to the norm, but like I said - there is a much higher percentage of the people using heroin that destroys themselves, compared to magic mushrooms.

You can always find exceptions, but the main focus should be upon the statistics, not upon the exceptions.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
    #9819593 - 02/18/09 12:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Well, I only perceive less when I am under the influence of ethanol, and never ever do I perceive things I don't perceive in my sober state of mind, while I am under the influence of ethanol.

When I am under the influence of psilocybin, I always perceive things I don't perceive in my sober state of mind, just like most of the other people that have consumed magic mushrooms.




Good, now we established that you were talking about yourself, which in extent means that you really don't know how this stuff works for others. :laugh:

Quote:

Obviously not, but most of these people have no experience with magic mushrooms.




Because they don't want to. It doesn't mean that they'll be better with using mushrooms.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
    #9819607 - 02/18/09 12:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Okay. Prove to us that it doesn't "force" us to do anything. You always claim proof from everybody else, so give us some proof yourself.




How many times do I have to repeat it, until you understand? I don't have to prove that mushrooms don't "force" one to do things, Diableros was the one who claimed that mushrooms make people give up social boundaries, the burden of proof is on his back.

Edit: just for the sake of argument, mushrooms, psilocybin, a substance can't "make" you do anything. Stating otherwise doesn't have any trace of evidence, and is equal with stating that water forces us to do certain things.
I don't know why this wishful fairy land thinking is having so much success with some people, so they end up thinking that their will is independent from themselves, and that there actually things or beings (imaginary and non-imaginary) that can change their minds and modify their behavior and decisions. Maybe because they don't feel in control over their mind, or maybe because they don't want to assume responsibility that comes with it. I am not saying that this is the case with you, so don't take this a personalism. I am merely trying to understand better why some people choose to find other authors for their lives. :confused2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
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Registered: 02/05/09
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9819618 - 02/18/09 12:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
How many times do I have to repeat it, until you understand? I don't have to prove that mushrooms don't "force" one to do things, Diableros was the one who claimed that mushrooms make people give up social boundaries, the burden of proof is on his back.




Seems to me like you always require proof from other people, while you never ever give proof of your own claims.

Even if his claim isn't proved, nor is your claim.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
    #9819640 - 02/18/09 12:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Yes, there are ALWAYS exceptions to the norm, but like I said - there is a much higher percentage of the people using heroin that destroys themselves, compared to magic mushrooms.

You can always find exceptions, but the main focus should be upon the statistics, not upon the exceptions.




Do you accurately know these statistics? Can you post a source?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
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Registered: 02/05/09
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9819646 - 02/18/09 12:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Yes, there are ALWAYS exceptions to the norm, but like I said - there is a much higher percentage of the people using heroin that destroys themselves, compared to magic mushrooms.

You can always find exceptions, but the main focus should be upon the statistics, not upon the exceptions.




Do you accurately know these statistics? Can you post a source?




Well, the person who started this thread is obviously working on statistics for magic mushrooms.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
    #9819654 - 02/18/09 12:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

This says nothing about the other drugs. Also, this says nothing regarding the entire population of Earth and how they react to psychedelics. The study is on a limited number of people, which have the intention of using mushrooms, used them before, and probably had a good result with them. Can you get more arbitrary than this?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
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Registered: 02/05/09
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9819680 - 02/18/09 12:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
This says nothing about the other drugs.




This is from the British medical journal The Lancet:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Psilocybin Mushroom Study 2009 [Re: Zanthius]
    #9819795 - 02/18/09 12:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I thought we were talking about psychological changes, not potential physical harm for those who are stupid and start abusing those substances. Nice try though. :wink:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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