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Evolutionary value of psilocybin?
    #1048793 -

Has anyone ever seen or heard of a theory about why the mushrooms contain these interesting chemicals? Usually when a plant contains a potent chemical it's assumed it's meant to deter preditors or otherwise help it cope with some environmental hardship. Is it concievable that the psychopharmacological effects are unpleasant to mushroom eating critters and "normal" humans, and Nature/God/Whatever didn't take into account that some of us would actually seek out the shrooms and consume them for the effects? For what it's worth, I don't believe anything in nature exists without a reason.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1049633 -

First of all, animals eat psilocybin mushrooms all the time. How could God, the creator of Earth, not take into mind people would eat this mushroom. In fact, mushrooms are a gift from God himself. I resent the fact that you refer to the enlightened mushroom eaters as not "normal."


--------------------
It's better to overdose than to underdose.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: nermski]
    #1049656 -

In fact, mushrooms are a gift from God himself.

this is a fact? shit, i must of missed that meeting.


Edited by chodamunky (11/13/02 02:54 PM)

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1050344 -

I puzzled over this for awhile, eventually I came to the conclusion that certain chemicals exsisted in a plant to further the species. For instance marijuana will get you high, cocaine will get you lit, soybeans will provide protein, etc. What I began pondering how this was possible. How could these plants understand how they would affect other creatures. Lately I've been reading about Quantum Theory, and Im beginning to realize, that there is no such thing as a coincidence, but there is such thing as free will. These organisms/chemicals, even make them look like something one would want to study and consume. Psilocybe tryptamines don't bruise blue by accident.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Remy]
    #1050359 -

Check out the psilocybins producers guide, and the mushroom cultivator, the azure's mushroom is forcing its way in to the human world. The azure's mushroom can only be found around human dewellings! The mushroom is here to save us!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1050488 -

>The mushroom is here to save us!

that's one of those statements that is best started with "at the risk of sounding crazy" :wink:
 

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Smack31]
    #1050574 -

LOL


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Smack31]
    #1050781 -

Maybe it sounds crazy now, but if you think about while your tripping on mushrooms, i'm sure it can be profound. Don't forget what you feel during your trip, because there lies the beauty, not what you think about it afterwards.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: ]
    #1050815 -

don't get me wrong... i took his point, i was just thinking about what other people would think.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Smack31]
    #1050832 -

I agree with it  :smile:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1050833 -

Climbing the amino acids
I peer out from the void
Erupting neurotransmitters
Screaming to be free
Awaken, in a silver pool
Energy aglow
Twisting through the double helix
Twice, but now sixteen
Catalyst of time and space
Potentials unlimited
Envoking spirit, mind and will
Manifesting thoughts and dreams
A twist of fate, a spark within
That grows into a blaze
Like stars of old, ancient light
Once born then death now free


--------------------

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1050992 -

Being of the NA Shaman persuasion, I think an old Cherokee story is relevant here:
When the First People arrived on Mother Earth, they began to hunt the animals of the land for their food, clothing, and other needs. These hairless preadators were different from others; smarter, sometimes fiercer, and they took great numbers to feed their clans.
The animals were disturbed by these First People, and formed a council. They agreed that something must be done. They made Medicine (as in magic), and released disease upon the First People. The people began to suffer with fevers and all manner of illness, and they did not know how to stop it.
The plants of the Earth saw the plight of the First People, and decided to make their own Council. After much deliberation, they decided that they, too, would make Medicine of their own. Each plant then agreed to cure at least ONE ailment that had been unleashed upon the First People. This is how plants came to be able to cure humans.
I suppose that in keeping with this story, the will of a living thing can often define its evolution. In the simplest case, it is the will to survive that drives evolution. But the will to become more than what one is, or to fill a higher purpose can also drive the Evolutionary machine. Shrooms may play into this by allowing humans to cure the diseases of ignorance and negativity that they create inside themselves. Remember: each of the Plant Council cures AT LEAST ONE disease. That includes emotional ones, too.
So in a way, I suppose the Sacred Shrooms may allow us to access an idealized frame of mind, which we will then will ourselves to evolve into. Teonanacatl (and other Shaman allies) comes to us, takes our hand, and shows us the Door. But we as a species have to take the hint, muster our will, and open it.
Hope this is insightful.

Walk in Beauty,
The Green Earth Shaman



--------------------
Walk in Beauty,
The Green Earth Shaman

"Whatever you take from Mother Earth, replace it, because nothing is for nothing."
-Native American Proverb

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1051930 -

Ok, so I've got spiritual and philosophical answers, anybody care to address the scientific? There must be some biology trained shroomers who can shed some light. I'm not college educated so I'm blinded by the glare of my ignorence.

If we accept the mainstream scientific theory that man came on the scene reletively late in the geological time frame [which I do], it can be assumed that mushrooms evolved mostly before human spirituality entered the picture. If anything, it seems more logical to assume that humans tailored their spiritual beliefs to what they found existing in nature [ie psychoactive plants etc], than it does to believe the plants somehow changed to suit man's spiritual needs.

Of course all this flies in the face of all anthrocentric belief systems, christian or shamanistic. If everyone here [but me] thinks the earth and all it contains was designed solely for the use and enjoyment of Man, I've come to the wrong place to ask my question. If however, some of you believe that man is just another animal [albiet a sentient animal], and that man came on the scene late in evolutionary history, it must stand to reason that there is another explantation to the question "why are mushrooms psychoactive?".

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1052051 -

Schultes the biologist who studied psychoactive plants/fungi said that psilocybin served no purpose at all in the lifecycle of the mushroom yet it devotes 15% of it's energy to producing it. No-one knows why.

Daniel Pinchbeck suggests in his latest book that psilocybin may be a method plants evolved for communicating plant consciousness with animals.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1052237 -

Thanks Alex123, I'm not familiar with any scientific studies of psychoactive mushroom. Most of my reasearch has been over the web and the info is heavily slanted toward either the recreational drug culture [the majority] or the more serious spiritual [as opposed to druggies desguised as psuedo-spiritual shaman types].
I just can't accept that anything that an organism devotes 15% of it's energy into producing has no value to its survival.
It's not even possible for me to concieve of an organism without a brain taking active steps toward promoting anybody's conscienseness, let alone taking an active role in its own evolution.
There's got to be a reason, even if we never discover it.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1052304 -

There are millions of plant compounds of which we know nothing. So what?

Pinchbeck can suggest whatever he likes. His opinions are no more meaningful than anyone else's. Being published does not give one special knowledge.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (11/14/02 04:49 PM)

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1052341 -

I am convinced that things such as Quantum Physics and Sychronicity hold the answer to all of these problems. I am completely convinced that Psilocybin exsists solely for the purpose that it is used for today.

Edited by Remy (11/14/02 03:16 PM)

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Remy]
    #1052736 -

I am completely convinced that Psilocybin exsists solely for the purpose that it should be used for today.

You are convinced that psilocybin exists for the purpose of making someone call 911 and shouting "Dear God make them stop! They are crawling out of my eyes. Oh, please in the name of heaven, help me!"

Hmmm...



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1052824 -

Give it a rest Swami. The guy asked for theories about why mushrooms contain psilocybin not to hear your ego flapping every other post.

You think it's all meaningless and everyone who says it isn't is mad. Fine. Now fuck off and leave the rest of us to it.






--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1052923 -

In reply to:
I am completely convinced that Psilocybin exsists solely for the purpose that it should be used for today.

You are convinced that psilocybin exists for the purpose of making someone call 911 and shouting "Dear God make them stop! They are crawling out of my eyes. Oh, please in the name of heaven, help me!"

Hmmm...



Essentially, Yes.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1052938 -

I was trying to define what the "it" (purpose) was as it was never stated.

Now fuck off and leave the rest of us to it.
(us? - Yet another shroomery spokesman, just how many are there?)
This statement comes directly from "ego flapping" and, of course violates the spirit and rules of this forum. But then, the idea of emotional control and centering is entirely "alien" to you.





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1053008 -

Swami - Hehhe - he he funny .
You balance out this forum perfectly .

You know there may be a myriad of reasons for psylocybin occurring in shrooms not just one .


--------------------
--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1053013 -

Psilocybin may have easily been a "poison". It could have made animals less likely to eat it. This seems like the more likely explanation.

From the present standpoint, it has an evolutionary advantage with us!  :grin: :grin: :grin: 


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1053024 -

us? - Yet another shroomery spokesman, just how many are there?)

No, Us = people interested in talking about the question posted in the thread. As simple as that.

Rather than parading their ego.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1053035 -

Psilocybin may have easily been a "poison". It could have made animals less likely to eat it.

Perhaps. It isn't a very effective poison tho. And many animals seek out psilocybin mushrooms to the exclusion of all other food sources (sheep in scotland do this every year).

With other mushrooms containing poisons that can kill with one bite you'd think the psilocybin mushroom would have died out utilising something as non-toxic as psilocybin.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1053072 -

It's a mystery.  :crazy:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Food]
    #1053082 -

Condensed version of personal reasoning on the subject :

Many Shrooms have poisons - I think that shrooms made psylocybin by chance whilst evloviong alongside beings whose brains were constantly changing evolutionarily - then branched out into many strains of magic shrooms .

So its a poison gone wrong(very low toxicity in humans) .

Even if this IS so, there are probably still more reasons aswell .


--------------------
--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1053097 -

And many animals seek out psilocybin mushrooms to the exclusion of all other food sources (sheep in scotland do this every year)

These sheep eat shrooms to the exclusion of all other food sources? That's intresting! Don't they experience the so-called "staggers" I hear about?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1053115 -

Yeah they get a bit wild running around. Seem to enjoy it tho - they keep eating the mushrooms  :laugh: 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Food]
    #1053271 -

In reply to:
Many Shrooms have poisons - I think that shrooms made psylocybin by chance whilst evloviong alongside beings whose brains were constantly changing evolutionarily - then branched out into many strains of magic shrooms .




There really is no such thing as chance. If evolution was nothing but a bunch of chance occurances that happened slowly over time, very little would have been accomplished and there would be no explanation for the links between different organims. If you add the idea that there is in fact some concouis force acting upon evolution, then everything starts to fit into place. You are left with one main question: What is the force? Now, most will either say it is something celestial/divine, or non-exsistant. Then came along some very important discoveries in the 20th century about how the universe actually works. The discovery that no true physical laws exsist (gravity, for instance is essentially non-exsistant), and sub-particles act in a concious, unpredictable manner. Jung did some very interesting studies on how things like this are interrelated, based on his knowledge of quantum physics. He called his theory on coincedences Synchronicity. With the possibility of supparticles acting and interacting with each other, things begin to truly fit together. Its no coincidence that certain potent species of Psilocybes are becomming common in resedential neighborhoods.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1053286 -

No, Us = people interested in talking about the question posted in the thread. As simple as that.

I am part of "us" as I am interested in it's purpose as well. So you are speaking for me and against me. Sounds somewhat schizophrenic.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1053332 -

Why do carrots contain nutritional value? Because God created them specifically for us to eat? Evolution doesn't happen with a result in mind, it's based on random mutations. There are bound to be tons of pointless alterations out there until finally one of those creatures with a longer beak or an extra finger manages to find a use for its mutation, and on that day the extra finger stops being just another mutation and becomes an important adaptation.

Let's look at an example:

One fine prehistoric day a UV ray penetrated inside the cell nucleus of Mother Mycelium (MM). It scrambled the DNA a little bit, and MM's mushrooms from that day onward produced mushrooms containing psilocybin. This mutation was inert, and did nothing to aid MM in producing more of itself. The eons passed, and MM evolved into many different species in many different genera. Some retained psilocybin and some lost it. Then one day a new species, a human, ate this mushroom, and found that the chemical psilocybin mimicked his own neurotransmitters, and caused a pleasurable effect. Thousands of years later the human race learned to cultivate mushrooms. People on the shroomery website formed an obsession with psilocybin and went to great lengths to propagate a variety of species containing the chemical. This lead to a widespread proliferation of psilocybes, and guaranteed them reproductive success.

So my point is that the mutation known as "psilocybin" has been hanging around doing nothing for the mushroom until about 30 years ago, when it finally found its niche and thusly became its latest evolutionart adaptation.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Food]
    #1053458 -

The animal body is a pretty resiliant creature, and good poisons are hard to make. Psilocybin, a poison that is only moderately effective as a deterrant, is however, quite easy to make. It is based off an very common amino acid (tryptophan) and doesn't require a lot of fancy biochemistry, so is it synthesized. Some plants go for making a lethal amount of a tough chemical, some mushrooms make a sublethal dose of an easy chemical. It seems to make evolutionary sense. That is produces such profound psychological effects in humans is most likely an accident of our neurochemistry, but evolutionary arguments like this one can only be taken so far because they can never be validated with any degree of certainty other than "it sounds about right."

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1053472 -

I like this theory more than Remy's, cause I too believe (i hate using that word) that evolution is a bunch of "mistakes" in nature that eventually become a necessity for the creature. I don't see how evolution could not happen by chance, it wouldn't be called evolution then cause that means things happened for a definite reason as a means to an end. and here's where God and destiny come in if yer into that belief system....

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1053487 -

But any one of these chance mutations had to have been beneficial for the organism or else it wouldn't be there. Evolution doesn't have a direction per se, but where it goes is somewhat dictated by which traits will make a fit organism. Plants don't just produce large quantities of useless chemicals. They wouldn't be able to compete with others who spent that energy toward reproduction.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Metasyn]
    #1053512 -

Your views are the result of hundreds of years of flawed science. Quantum physics was just taking off in the Einsteinian era of science. The fact that physical laws do not exsist, is quite incredible. To this date, there is no real argument against quantum physics, even religion fits in the picture it paints.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Metasyn]
    #1053606 -

In reply to:
But any one of these chance mutations had to have been beneficial for the organism or else it wouldn't be there.



That's right. What I mean is that the mushroom mutated and made psilocybin and then FINALLY we found a use for it which means that we grow and spread all kinds of psychedelic mushrooms all over the world thus ensuring psilocybes a place in the future, which is evolutionary success! Here's another example:

Let's pretend that there is a kind of ant living in the woods who has a mouth designed for slurping up blood from fresh owl-killed mouse carrion. A queen starts producing offspring with a 1 in 10 chance of having some extra tooth-like pieces of exoskeleton around their mouths. Luckily this mutation does not hamper their ability to suck up mouse blood, and so the colony flourishes equally with its neighbouring colonies of the same ant species. Then one day, the species of owl who kills all the mice for these ants is struck by a new virus and is made extinct. No owls means no dead mice which means no food for the mandibleless ant species, and so they all die with the one exception of the colony who produced mutated toothed offspring. These ants are able to tear open the thin flesh of baby mice and get at the staple mouse blood. The colony produces queens and more colonies are born. As the toothless ants die off the new ones replace them and continue to flourish.
In reply to:
Plants don't just produce large quantities of useless chemicals. They wouldn't be able to compete with others who spent that energy toward reproduction.


But there could be plenty of small changes which wouldn't impact the organism's ability to reproduce. What if a man was born with no nipples? It wouldn't really matter. He'd reproduce and his no-man-nipple gene would reside within his offspring every now and then causing the existence of a nippleless man. Then one day, when the planet is plagued with the fatal male nipple rotting disease (FMNRD), the men without the nipples are the only survivors and so the planet becomes re-stocked with nippleless men, and the dance of evolution continues.

See what I mean? Genetic diversity means that a speceis will be able to continue while being hampered by diverse opponents.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1053815 -

I am in agreement that the ability to flourish is an evolutionary trait and forms a sort of symbiosis, if you will. However, I am in disagreement the evolution is made up of semi-random mutations.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1054173 -

So what is the latent evolutionary value of psilocybin? The main question is still not answered.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Metasyn]
    #1054178 -

Catalyst for evolution of human consciousness.


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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1054210 -

In reply to:
Give it a rest Swami. The guy asked for theories about why mushrooms contain psilocybin not to hear your ego flapping every other post.

You think it's all meaningless and everyone who says it isn't is mad. Fine. Now fuck off and leave the rest of us to it.



I try not to moderate too heavily but this kind of flaming is unwanted and unnecessary. In the future try to limit your criticisms to the non-obscene langauge type.

Thanks,

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1054316 -

So my point is that the mutation known as "psilocybin" has been hanging around doing nothing for the mushroom until about 30 years ago,

Except that it is very rare for an organism to devote 15% of it's energy to producing something that is of no value to it. Nature doesn't really work that way.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1054398 -

A few random thoughts / points:

There is a new theory of evolution which essentially eliminates the idea that random mutations produce new species and replaces it with the idea that genetic material is exchanged through symbiosis which creates new species. It keeps the idea of natural selection. This suggests that some kind of symbiosis could be responsible.

Most psilocybian mushrooms grow in temporary habitats. Dung, decomposing wood, etc. Often near animal disturbance. Interesting also is that Canabis seems to "follow" animal activity.

We cannot say that mushrooms don't have a brain just because we can't identify something that looks like our brains in them. The way that mushroom mycelium grows, passes chemicals between cells, and even between species, reminds me of neural activity. Mycorrhizal connections exist between two or more species of trees with the mycelium acting as a middlething exchanging nutrients between them.

Crazy theory here, but perhaps psilocybin acts as a neurotransmitter for the mushroom, after all it is very similar to our neurotransmitters and the fungi kingdom is said to be closer to animal than plant. Or perhaps it is like others have said; that it is meant to communicate to us.

To throw quantum theory into the mix: it has been shown that particles that have existed together (such as within the same atom) share a quantum link. These particles can be (seeminly) any distance apart and when the state of one changes the state of the other also changes instantaneously (truely instantaneously; no passage of time). So this molecule with many particles is in a fungus, many of these molecules are eaten by an animal, a quantum link exists now between a chemical that is like a neurotransmitter, in the brain of this animal, and the fungus. A route of communication.

Thank you for reading this.


--------------------
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: nermski]
    #1054424 -

"In fact, mushrooms are a gift from God himself"

I think you've got it backwards....

In fact, God is a gift from the mushroom itself.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1054441 -

"Psilocybin may have easily been a "poison". It could have made animals less likely to eat it."

I think its fun to think of it as the opposite! The mushroom knows that advanced intelligences use and appreciate psychoactive substances, and will gladly assist reproduction of the mushroom (as many of us do in our own homes!) in exchange for this psychoactivity :smile:

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
but I really have no clue...


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1054445 -

"In fact, God is a gift from the mushroom itself."

Good call, Strumpling!!!  :grin: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (11/15/02 01:21 AM)

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1054866 -

That's right. What I mean is that the mushroom mutated and made psilocybin and then FINALLY we found a use for it which means that we grow and spread all kinds of psychedelic mushrooms all over the world thus ensuring psilocybes a place in the future, which is evolutionary success! Here's another example:

Of course, no one knows the true history of the mushroom, but the fact that in the last century, Wasson was ONLY able to find psilocybin usage among one tiny remote Mexican village speaks volumes against this theory. To this date, the only other known usage was in the Aztec and Mayan cultures; hardly a force for worldwide mutation.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: psyphon]
    #1054921 -

Quote:
perhaps psilocybin acts as a neurotransmitter for the mushroom, after all it is very similar to our neurotransmitters 


perhaps we should inject serotonin into a shroom and see if it wigs out.
nice idea tho, in our brains, i guess, serotonin just sits, sponged up in a lump of meat and juice. :tongue: 

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1054928 -

So what you are in essence saying, is that serotonin evolved to satisfy the tripping needs of the mushroom...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1055094 -

Interesting points of view! I had no idea what to expect when I asked my question [being new to the forum] but my curiosity was sincere. The question wasn't really answered, whether because it's not known to science or just not known here, but I enjoyed the exchange of ideas.
Thanks to Dogomush for his nippless man analogy which was both entertaining and displayed the best understanding of natural selection driven evolution.
Also thanks to Strumpling for the mushroom created God comment just because it happens to agree with my own theory of the origin of all metaphysical beliefs [that they come from the imagination of Man, whether or not psychoactives are used to liberate them].
Cool stuff people! Keep thinking!

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1055215 -


In reply to:
we found a use for it which means that we grow and spread all kinds of psychedelic mushrooms all over the world thus ensuring psilocybes a place in the future, which is evolutionary success!

In reply to:
Wasson was ONLY able to find psilocybin usage among one tiny remote Mexican village speaks volumes against this theory.



Well, what I mean is that in the past the mushroom HASN'T been enjoying evolutionary success from its psilocybin production. Today, though, things are different. Thanks to the interest in cultivating mushrooms for their psychoactive properties spore companies are taking mushroom spores from, say, Spain (psilocybe hispanica) and selling them to North Americans who live in similar climates, where the cultivators establish outdoor beds. The Hispanicas grow up, release spores, and if they can they establish themselves in the wild.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: psyphon]
    #1055223 -

Psyphon that must be the best post I've seen on this board in years. Thanks.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Metasyn]
    #1055224 -

In reply to:
So what is the latent evolutionary value of psilocybin? The main question is still not answered.

yes it is. The evolutionary value is our interest in it. We like it, and so people establish sites like the shroomery. I think this website is an evolutionary catalyst.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1055249 -

Wasson was ONLY able to find psilocybin usage among one tiny remote Mexican village speaks volumes against this theory. To this date, the only other known usage was in the Aztec and Mayan cultures; hardly a force for worldwide mutation.

Utter nonsense. Mushroom use was widespread throughout south america as evidenced by the hundreds of religious mushrooms stones found. Their use was curtailed by brutal suppression by the spanish. If you were caught taking mushrooms you were tortured and killed.

Mushroom cave paintings have been found in Africa and there is evidence that suggests they were in use throughout India and the far east.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: psyphon]
    #1055251 -

In reply to:
Most psilocybian mushrooms grow in temporary habitats. Dung, decomposing wood, etc. Often near animal disturbance. Interesting also is that Canabis seems to "follow" animal activity.

Yeah, but so does crab grass, and lots of other plants. Do mushrooms grow around human settlements because we use it or do we use it because it grows near our settlements? The size of the human population leaves a huge footprint wherever it goes. With every step comes a destruction and then regeneration. Lots of plants are designed to get a strong grip right after a disturbance. Lodgepole pine cones are designed to open and germinate at 50C, a temperature which occurs with a forest fire or with direct sunlight cooking the dirt around the cone but never under the shady canopy of a healthy forest. Morel mushrooms, fire weed, thimbleberry bushes, and certain deciduous trees like alder flourish after fires as well. Fire weed jumps up in all the clearcuts I've seen in BC, so it's another organism that follows the human race.

I'm satisfied with the theory of evolution through random mutations, and so I don't want to complicate things by throwing in conciousness-driven theories and all the rest. The mainstream accepted theory is the most simple and fills any gaps I can find. What's that theory called where the simplest answer is probably the right one? I think it applies here. I'd be interested to check out the new theory psyphon is talking about, though. Where can I read about it?

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1055274 -

Their use was curtailed by brutal suppression by the spanish. If you were caught taking mushrooms you were tortured and killed.

So in essence, the mushrooms "seeing" the future, actually evolved to punish the Indians using the Spaniards as their intrument of death. Those clever fungi!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1055312 -

So in essence, the mushrooms "seeing" the future, actually evolved to punish the Indians using the Spaniards as their intrument of death. Those clever fungi!

Am i really supposed to answer this rubbish swami?  :laugh:



 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1055454 -

Please try to be open-minded there Alex. The mushrooms are more powerful than you know.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (11/15/02 12:29 PM)

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1055633 -

Swami, you are missing a major point, nobody is saying that psilocybin is responsible for everything that it causes. The Spaniards used their own free will to persecute the indians. Dogomush, your rejection of modern science, and your contentment at not knowing enough has been a major obstacle in the history of science, religion, and philosophy.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1055755 -

Here's a theory guaranteed to send swami into apoplexy...

http://imprint.uwaterloo.ca/issues/090100/4Human/features01.shtml

I mentioned that this life transforming experience is about communication, it turns out that it could be with extra-terrestrial life.

It?s possible that mushrooms are in fact from outer space.

Mushroom spores are a deep deep purple - the colour they would have to be to absorb the ultraviolet radiation that comes with any inter-planetary or inter-galactic space travel.

The spore casing is one of the hardest organic substances known, and it?s electron density borders is almost that of a metal.

If that were all, you might not be convinced. Consider this - there is no fossil record of the species older than 40,000,000 years.

Similar soft-bodied organisms, worms and other benthic marine invertebrates, can be found that date back over 1,000,000,000 years, so the explanation that this particular species does not fossilize well can be brought into question.

Over periods of time, mushroom spores could travel on global air currents up into the upper reaches of a planet?s atmosphere, and every once in a while a couple could make the jump into space.

Genetically engineered for space travel, the spores would float along until they happened upon another planet.

Granted, it is not space travel as we know it - there is no hyper-drive or warp speed - but the universe has been around long enough for this type of travel to make a lot of sense. In fact, it?s based upon the same principle that many life forms of this planet use to get around.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1055805 -

Quite an interesting theory. Quantum Theory can't disprove it either.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1056101 -

Apoplexy? Heh - never. I am not the one with out-of-control emotions. *Holds up mirror*

This "theory" was popularized by McKenna. No one knows if spores can survive in space, nor is there one single piece of evidence pointing in the direction of ET shrooms.

Oh, wait. I forgot that anything printed on a website has veracity *doh*.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (11/16/02 12:06 PM)

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1057968 -

Wouldn't the spores be stranded out in space unable to enter a solar system due to the force of the sun?

No, because if they started in another solar system, they would have started at a dead stop. This would give a longer acceleration time than deceleration time while entering the second solar system.

They would have cooled down to 3 kelvins within just a short time, which would make it possible for them to survive for millions of years.

It would be simple enough to examine the genome, and determine if it was terrestrial, or at least if it were as terrestrial as we are, if it is then it would share about half the genes that we do.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Earth Shaman]
    #1078831 -

earth shamans explanation makes good sense to me... i feel that nature has always made a concious effort... peace...




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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1078943 -

I suppose you know nothing about the famous collaboration between the most respected scientists G.Wasson, C.Ruck, A.Hofmann.
In their famous book: LSD: The way to Eleysina (The revelation of the secret of the ceremonies) they describe the ultimate  find: That a holy juice used in the ceremonies, which among others, (prooved after chemical identification by Hofmann) contained PSILOCYBIN.
And that was in ancient Greece. Pretty far from mexico isn't it???  :cool:
I dont want to make this post big, but Terrence Mc Kenna has  revealed it all to me,
The earth as we see it,(me and Terrence :smile:) is a giant living organism, and has to deal with its parasites (humans) so it produces (just like any other living creature)
some substances that will save her immune system.
For a attack of a species that has a spiritual part, it needs a SPIRITUAL ANTISEPTIC. (the psychoactive effects that make you loooove nature)  :smile:
Evolution might be present at random times, as mention above, and that may be the reason for the different colonization times of psychoactive fungi on earth.

The truth is, that ....it works!
For example i am much more sensitive and respective for our planet after entering the mysterious world of psychoactive fungi.


--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind

"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek



Edited by Sterile (11/23/02 07:10 AM)

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Sterile]
    #1079037 -

I suppose you know nothing
Your supposition is all wrong which isn't too surprising.

That a holy juice used in the ceremonies, which among others, (prooved after chemical identification by Hofmann) contained PSILOCYBIN.
I don't know what "prooving is" (and you call me ignorant!). There was no 2000 year-old leftover "juice". It was all a theoretical mind experiment.

For example i am much more sensitive and respective for our planet after entering the mysterious world of psychoactive fungi.
Yes, that is obvious by your opening attacking and erroneous line. Try upping the dosage.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1079108 -

Great thread by the way. Here's my input:

I don't beleive that anything on this earth is here for the benefit of mankind, i find that idea completely ludicrous and egotistical. We are but one species of billions. We are not the most important here, not even more important that any other. We are completely equal in value to trees, grass, cows, bacterium. All life has its place and we all (are supposed to) work together to achieve some sort of equllibrium. Some state of balance, give and take, with the other lifeforms.

Psilocybes most likely evolved on thier own with no thought or consideration to human beings. Everything evolves as it does with the means to have its place in this society (earth.) Nothing is here for human beings alone, we hold claim to none of it, and if we claim that another life form exists for the purpose of our own enlightenment then we really can't be that enlightened. Thinking that psilocybes are here for our purposes is just a little to egotistical to hold any truth for me. It's possible that the mushroom is aware of our relationship with it, and that it wants to share knowledge with others, but to say its whole purpose in existance is for our gain is ridiculous.

I think I've made my point.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1079141 -

Your supposition is all wrong which isn't too surprising.
I am sorry Swami, but you are an ignorant and a liar who claims not being an ignorant as well.
I don't know what "prooving is" (and you call me ignorant!). There was no 2000 year-old leftover "juice". It was all a theoretical mind experiment.
I was actually hoping that you would make me explain this "prooving" part more, but i didnt want to make a huge post, untill you prooved the level of your ignorance

. SO! Here is a more in depth analysis of the G.Wasson,G.Ruck, A.Hoffman's work:

There was information about this "juice" consumed in the "eleysinian mysteries" in ancient Greece, found in many ancient scripts.
All information found wanted the magic 'juice' called "KYKEON"  to contain wheat.
But what was causing all the intense visions that where taking place inside inside the temple? awe!
That was Hofmanns great question but not for long.
A further investigation on wheat showed that sclerotia that grew on it of the fungi Claviceps purpurea contained the exact same alcaloid with the shrooms used in Mexico by many tribes.yes PSILOCYBIN !
I could keep on posting numerous info about why those scientists believe that this Shamanic religion was common in many parts of the world, but then again, you can read the book. :smile:  thats what they explain in it.
Telling ME to not know what prooving means, is one thing, speaking like that for A.Hofmann is absolutely hilarious in my opinion.
Yes, that is obvious by your opening attacking and erroneous line. Try upping the dosage.
Why the heck do you feel attacked when someone tells you "you know nothing"???  It is a simple observation for a simple subject you truly know nothing about.
Our egos really suck.
I will follow your advice tho.Thanx!!!  :smile:



--------------------
The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind

"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek



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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Sterile]
    #1079210 -

untill you prooved the level of your ignorance

Oh you havn't seen nothing yet. Swami's just getting warmed up  :laugh: He can get far more ignorant than he's shown so far. 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Remy]
    #1079423 -

a couple points.

1. hallucinagenic mushrooms aren't poisonous or hallucinagenic to most non human animals, or at least when they did all the tests, the better the brain the animal had the less was needed to produce more severe physical effects. in other words, the lower the inteligence of the animal, the less it was physically affected by psychedelics.

2. my father has the exact same belief as terenence mckenna (about mushrooms being an entitity that sends spores or something similar through space, and although i haven't asked him more about where he got the idea from, i'm pretty sure he has never heard of terence mckenna and that he got that idea somewhere in the early sixties (i'll ask him)

3. i'm curious less in how the fungus has evolved, and more how WE have evoveld .
how have you evolved?

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1079482 -

Mushroom spores are a deep deep purple - the colour they would have to be to absorb the ultraviolet radiation that comes with any inter-planetary or inter-galactic space travel. Psilocybe spores are, but other psychedelic fungi spores aren't: panaeolus are black, conocybes have rusty-brown spores, and gymnopilus mushies have rusty orange to yellow orange spores. So much for that point..

If that were all, you might not be convinced. Consider this - there is no fossil record of the species older than 40,000,000 years. Similar soft-bodied organisms, worms and other benthic marine invertebrates, can be found that date back over 1,000,000,000 years, so the explanation that this particular species does not fossilize well can be brought into question. Yes, it could be brought into question. How long is the lifespan of 'benthic marine invertabrates'? I suspect longer than seven to 14 days, like a mushroom. How do things get fossilized? land slides, falling into peat bogs, blanketing from volcanic ash? The odds of catching a mushroom in a state to be preserved and fossilized are small just because of their short lifespan, and furthermore, Well, mushrooms can't fall into a bog, and most things covering them would crush them into a kind of unidentifiable paste. Also, I believe they are fairly prone to rotting, perhaps even by anaerobic bacteria after being covered by volcanic ash.. why do you think you are supposed to put mushrooms you buy at the grocery store in a paper bag?

Over periods of time, mushroom spores could travel on global air currents up into the upper reaches of a planet?s atmosphere, and every once in a while a couple could make the jump into space. "COULD" prove it happens, buddy

Genetically engineered for space travel opinion.

I've read all mckenna's books, and I love them, but remember it's all pseudoscientific speculation. He doesn't even necessarily believe what he says. He says something like "I treat the mushroom as I would an eccentric friend over to tea" so when the mushroom tells him it comes from outer space he's like "right, yeah ok sure." There's no good reason to think mushrooms come from outer space.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1079537 -

We're going to try and adopt a 'play nice' policy.  Do you think you could help?

:smile:

Cheers, 

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Sterile]
    #1079540 -

^^^^

Thanks! :smile:

Cheers,

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1079545 -

^^^^^^

Thanks! :smile:

Cheers,

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1084836 -

THE FIRST VALUE OF PSILOYIBIN IS MAKING US SHROOMERS!!
Never forget that!! We wouldn't have been here on this forum! We would have been some work junkies! We wouldn't be so kind to each other and help us(shroomerites) whenever it comes to! THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!

MUSHROOMS are the reason of Shroomery!
AS for SWAMI.. he would be a crazy man talking to nobody.. At least here there is someone to listen to him! :smile: :smile: :wink: :tongue:
He is part of us.. We are ONE! ONE BIG ENVOLVING SHROOM! WE ARE THE PSYLOCIBIN THAT RUNS THROUGH SHROOMERY'S VEINS. :smile:
P.S. I am not tripping. As a metter of fact I haven't trip for few months now. Efects come later to me. :smile:
SEE YOU SHROOM!!!! 


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: dumlovesyou]
    #1085069 -

AS for SWAMI.. he would be a crazy man talking to nobody.. At least here there is someone to listen to him!

LOL!  :laugh:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Murex]
    #1086480 -

The following is off-topic but relavent, ignore it if you just want to read the on topic stuff at the bottom of the post.

----------------------------------------------------
You're calling swami crazy because he's thinking logically and using the scientific method?
If all you people that get so offended by swami were to take a moment and take a logical/scientific/skeptical viewpoint on your ideas before posting them, perhaps you wouldn't be so offended, when he questions their validity. This is what learning is about; question everything. Its great that you come up with creative, far-out, fanastic ideas, but realize that they are pretty out-there and that there could be more logical explainations or that you need to really scrutinize FACTS before accepting ANYTHING as truth.

That said, I will totally admit that I post crazy, far-out stuff, but the difference is I make it clear that I'm not speaking this as truth and that I'm willing to discuss and change my ideas. And I don't get offended when I'm criticized because I see it as an opportunity to learn.
-----------------------------------

On topic stuff:
For more information on the theory I posted about read this post. Dogomush: The theory (as far as I know) is not "conciousness-driven ". An example that helps to disprove random mutation is the fruit-fly which has been the most genetically studied organism and had many mutations induced in it; not once has a new species been created.

Alex123: I'm happy that you enjoyed my post and I thank you for your compliment, I must say that I have seen many good posts come from you.

Swami: Keep up the good posting and thinking, your patience is commendable.

Everyone else: Great thread! Keep the creative thoughts flowing. Learn to use the sciencific method as well (I know this doesn't apply to everyone but I don't want to point people out.)


--------------------
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: psyphon]
    #1086828 -

First of all it's not Murex that said swami would have been a crazy man. :smile:(read the above post)
This was by NO MEAN intended to offend Swami. As I said.. he is a shroomer like the rest of us. :smile: You said the rest of it in your post. Though remeber also, that science is not based on something 100% pure. It's an opinion..just an way of thinknig. There is nothing wrong with that nor in finding new ways of understanding. Shroom on! :cool: :cool:


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1086995 -

So what about the people who end up with bad trips, constant paranoid delusions, chemical imbalances and what not? Just because this chemical creates realizations, feelings of enlightenment, and can make your imagination twirl doesn't mean it is anything special. The mushroom has many effects. Let's take them all into consideration.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Droz]
    #1087332 -

It's a two part deal. There's you and there's the mushroom. If you arn't bringing anything worthwhile to the deal then you can expect a "bad trip".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1087525 -

And you take your brain having open-eye halucinations as?


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1087534 -

I ALWAYS bring my mushies some flowers and a bottle of wine...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Droz]
    #1087634 -

And you take your brain having open-eye halucinations as?

I've never had a hallucination with mushrooms.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1087642 -

NEVER HAD HALLUCINATIONS?? It hapens with me while on acid. :smile: DOSE UP!! :smile:


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1087843 -

Hey alex... take 5 dried grams, turn off the lights, and close your eyes in silence. Don't move from that position for at least three hours and tell me you didn't hallucinate wildly :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: dumlovesyou]
    #1089173 -

Sorry, you're right, I didn't read properly and I interpreted it out of context. On my post it says 8:34am but where I am it was about 4 hours earlier. My lack of sleep must have gotten the best of me.
You are right that science is just one view point, but the scientific method has proven very useful and has gotten us much of what we have today.

Murex: Please accept my appologies.

Also, I thought this was interesting.


--------------------
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1089368 -

take 5 dried grams

I've taken 15. A hallucination is a false perception of reality. My perception of reality on mushrooms is "this is my brain under the influence of psilocybin". No hallucinations there. I don't think there's any serious researcher who calls what happens on LSD or mushrooms "hallucinations" since you are perfectly aware that what you are seeing isn't real.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1089502 -

So thats really what the back of your eyelids look like?

oh and by the way: "a hallucination is a false perception of reality."

You're claiming you perceive reality as it "really" is? Objecticely?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (11/27/02 12:31 AM)

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1089600 -

take 5 dried grams

I did 6 hours ago. Thanks for the advise.  :wink:  :grin:  :tongue:

.....and holy shit did I halucinatate!


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (11/27/02 01:00 AM)

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Murex]
    #1089752 -

Yeah I just read your other thread :smile: Sounds like it was pretty good eh?

Glad you enjoyed yourself - now its time to start processing all that stuff that jsut happened to you :-D

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
Re-Integration hehe


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1090639 -

"a hallucination is a false perception of reality"

You're claiming you perceive reality as it "really" is? Objecticely?

Well that's the definition. It's like saying when you look at a TV you are hallucinating that there's a wild lion in your living room. There are different versions of "reality" that our brains can cope with. A hallucination is something your brain is unable to distuingish from "reality". Mushrooms don't produce these.

Incidentally, what is "reality"? Your everyday consciousness?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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