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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1052938 - 11/14/02 05:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I was trying to define what the "it" (purpose) was as it was never stated.

Now fuck off and leave the rest of us to it.
(us? - Yet another shroomery spokesman, just how many are there?)
This statement comes directly from "ego flapping" and, of course violates the spirit and rules of this forum. But then, the idea of emotional control and centering is entirely "alien" to you.





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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFood
---Beast---

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 390
Loc: Siberia
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1053008 - 11/14/02 05:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Swami - Hehhe - he he funny .
You balance out this forum perfectly .

You know there may be a myriad of reasons for psylocybin occurring in shrooms not just one .


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--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-


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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
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Registered: 08/05/02
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1053013 - 11/14/02 05:43 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Psilocybin may have easily been a "poison". It could have made animals less likely to eat it. This seems like the more likely explanation.

From the present standpoint, it has an evolutionary advantage with us!  :grin: :grin: :grin: 


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focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1053024 - 11/14/02 05:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

us? - Yet another shroomery spokesman, just how many are there?)

No, Us = people interested in talking about the question posted in the thread. As simple as that.

Rather than parading their ego.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1053035 - 11/14/02 05:48 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Psilocybin may have easily been a "poison". It could have made animals less likely to eat it.

Perhaps. It isn't a very effective poison tho. And many animals seek out psilocybin mushrooms to the exclusion of all other food sources (sheep in scotland do this every year).

With other mushrooms containing poisons that can kill with one bite you'd think the psilocybin mushroom would have died out utilising something as non-toxic as psilocybin.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1053072 - 11/14/02 05:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

It's a mystery.  :crazy:


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineFood
---Beast---

Registered: 12/10/01
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Food]
    #1053082 - 11/14/02 05:58 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Condensed version of personal reasoning on the subject :

Many Shrooms have poisons - I think that shrooms made psylocybin by chance whilst evloviong alongside beings whose brains were constantly changing evolutionarily - then branched out into many strains of magic shrooms .

So its a poison gone wrong(very low toxicity in humans) .

Even if this IS so, there are probably still more reasons aswell .


--------------------
--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1053097 - 11/14/02 06:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

And many animals seek out psilocybin mushrooms to the exclusion of all other food sources (sheep in scotland do this every year)

These sheep eat shrooms to the exclusion of all other food sources? That's intresting! Don't they experience the so-called "staggers" I hear about?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1053115 - 11/14/02 06:06 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah they get a bit wild running around. Seem to enjoy it tho - they keep eating the mushrooms  :laugh: 


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OfflineRemy
Bitches Brew
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Registered: 06/04/02
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Food]
    #1053271 - 11/14/02 07:00 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Many Shrooms have poisons - I think that shrooms made psylocybin by chance whilst evloviong alongside beings whose brains were constantly changing evolutionarily - then branched out into many strains of magic shrooms .





There really is no such thing as chance. If evolution was nothing but a bunch of chance occurances that happened slowly over time, very little would have been accomplished and there would be no explanation for the links between different organims. If you add the idea that there is in fact some concouis force acting upon evolution, then everything starts to fit into place. You are left with one main question: What is the force? Now, most will either say it is something celestial/divine, or non-exsistant. Then came along some very important discoveries in the 20th century about how the universe actually works. The discovery that no true physical laws exsist (gravity, for instance is essentially non-exsistant), and sub-particles act in a concious, unpredictable manner. Jung did some very interesting studies on how things like this are interrelated, based on his knowledge of quantum physics. He called his theory on coincedences Synchronicity. With the possibility of supparticles acting and interacting with each other, things begin to truly fit together. Its no coincidence that certain potent species of Psilocybes are becomming common in resedential neighborhoods.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1053286 - 11/14/02 07:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

No, Us = people interested in talking about the question posted in the thread. As simple as that.

I am part of "us" as I am interested in it's purpose as well. So you are speaking for me and against me. Sounds somewhat schizophrenic.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1053332 - 11/14/02 07:20 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Why do carrots contain nutritional value? Because God created them specifically for us to eat? Evolution doesn't happen with a result in mind, it's based on random mutations. There are bound to be tons of pointless alterations out there until finally one of those creatures with a longer beak or an extra finger manages to find a use for its mutation, and on that day the extra finger stops being just another mutation and becomes an important adaptation.

Let's look at an example:

One fine prehistoric day a UV ray penetrated inside the cell nucleus of Mother Mycelium (MM). It scrambled the DNA a little bit, and MM's mushrooms from that day onward produced mushrooms containing psilocybin. This mutation was inert, and did nothing to aid MM in producing more of itself. The eons passed, and MM evolved into many different species in many different genera. Some retained psilocybin and some lost it. Then one day a new species, a human, ate this mushroom, and found that the chemical psilocybin mimicked his own neurotransmitters, and caused a pleasurable effect. Thousands of years later the human race learned to cultivate mushrooms. People on the shroomery website formed an obsession with psilocybin and went to great lengths to propagate a variety of species containing the chemical. This lead to a widespread proliferation of psilocybes, and guaranteed them reproductive success.

So my point is that the mutation known as "psilocybin" has been hanging around doing nothing for the mushroom until about 30 years ago, when it finally found its niche and thusly became its latest evolutionart adaptation.


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InvisibleMetasyn
one

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 239
Loc: PNW
Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Food]
    #1053458 - 11/14/02 08:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The animal body is a pretty resiliant creature, and good poisons are hard to make. Psilocybin, a poison that is only moderately effective as a deterrant, is however, quite easy to make. It is based off an very common amino acid (tryptophan) and doesn't require a lot of fancy biochemistry, so is it synthesized. Some plants go for making a lethal amount of a tough chemical, some mushrooms make a sublethal dose of an easy chemical. It seems to make evolutionary sense. That is produces such profound psychological effects in humans is most likely an accident of our neurochemistry, but evolutionary arguments like this one can only be taken so far because they can never be validated with any degree of certainty other than "it sounds about right."


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1053472 - 11/14/02 08:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I like this theory more than Remy's, cause I too believe (i hate using that word) that evolution is a bunch of "mistakes" in nature that eventually become a necessity for the creature. I don't see how evolution could not happen by chance, it wouldn't be called evolution then cause that means things happened for a definite reason as a means to an end. and here's where God and destiny come in if yer into that belief system....


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InvisibleMetasyn
one

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 239
Loc: PNW
Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: chodamunky]
    #1053487 - 11/14/02 08:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

But any one of these chance mutations had to have been beneficial for the organism or else it wouldn't be there. Evolution doesn't have a direction per se, but where it goes is somewhat dictated by which traits will make a fit organism. Plants don't just produce large quantities of useless chemicals. They wouldn't be able to compete with others who spent that energy toward reproduction.


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OfflineRemy
Bitches Brew
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Registered: 06/04/02
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Metasyn]
    #1053512 - 11/14/02 08:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Your views are the result of hundreds of years of flawed science. Quantum physics was just taking off in the Einsteinian era of science. The fact that physical laws do not exsist, is quite incredible. To this date, there is no real argument against quantum physics, even religion fits in the picture it paints.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Metasyn]
    #1053606 - 11/14/02 09:06 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

But any one of these chance mutations had to have been beneficial for the organism or else it wouldn't be there.




That's right. What I mean is that the mushroom mutated and made psilocybin and then FINALLY we found a use for it which means that we grow and spread all kinds of psychedelic mushrooms all over the world thus ensuring psilocybes a place in the future, which is evolutionary success! Here's another example:

Let's pretend that there is a kind of ant living in the woods who has a mouth designed for slurping up blood from fresh owl-killed mouse carrion. A queen starts producing offspring with a 1 in 10 chance of having some extra tooth-like pieces of exoskeleton around their mouths. Luckily this mutation does not hamper their ability to suck up mouse blood, and so the colony flourishes equally with its neighbouring colonies of the same ant species. Then one day, the species of owl who kills all the mice for these ants is struck by a new virus and is made extinct. No owls means no dead mice which means no food for the mandibleless ant species, and so they all die with the one exception of the colony who produced mutated toothed offspring. These ants are able to tear open the thin flesh of baby mice and get at the staple mouse blood. The colony produces queens and more colonies are born. As the toothless ants die off the new ones replace them and continue to flourish.
In reply to:

Plants don't just produce large quantities of useless chemicals. They wouldn't be able to compete with others who spent that energy toward reproduction.



But there could be plenty of small changes which wouldn't impact the organism's ability to reproduce. What if a man was born with no nipples? It wouldn't really matter. He'd reproduce and his no-man-nipple gene would reside within his offspring every now and then causing the existence of a nippleless man. Then one day, when the planet is plagued with the fatal male nipple rotting disease (FMNRD), the men without the nipples are the only survivors and so the planet becomes re-stocked with nippleless men, and the dance of evolution continues.

See what I mean? Genetic diversity means that a speceis will be able to continue while being hampered by diverse opponents.


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1053815 - 11/14/02 10:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I am in agreement that the ability to flourish is an evolutionary trait and forms a sort of symbiosis, if you will. However, I am in disagreement the evolution is made up of semi-random mutations.


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InvisibleMetasyn
one

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 239
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1054173 - 11/15/02 12:44 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So what is the latent evolutionary value of psilocybin? The main question is still not answered.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Metasyn]
    #1054178 - 11/15/02 12:46 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Catalyst for evolution of human consciousness.


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