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Anonymous

Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1054210 - 11/15/02 12:59 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Give it a rest Swami. The guy asked for theories about why mushrooms contain psilocybin not to hear your ego flapping every other post.

You think it's all meaningless and everyone who says it isn't is mad. Fine. Now fuck off and leave the rest of us to it.




I try not to moderate too heavily but this kind of flaming is unwanted and unnecessary. In the future try to limit your criticisms to the non-obscene langauge type.

Thanks,


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1054316 - 11/15/02 01:42 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So my point is that the mutation known as "psilocybin" has been hanging around doing nothing for the mushroom until about 30 years ago,

Except that it is very rare for an organism to devote 15% of it's energy to producing something that is of no value to it. Nature doesn't really work that way.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblepsyphon
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1054398 - 11/15/02 02:26 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

A few random thoughts / points:

There is a new theory of evolution which essentially eliminates the idea that random mutations produce new species and replaces it with the idea that genetic material is exchanged through symbiosis which creates new species. It keeps the idea of natural selection. This suggests that some kind of symbiosis could be responsible.

Most psilocybian mushrooms grow in temporary habitats. Dung, decomposing wood, etc. Often near animal disturbance. Interesting also is that Canabis seems to "follow" animal activity.

We cannot say that mushrooms don't have a brain just because we can't identify something that looks like our brains in them. The way that mushroom mycelium grows, passes chemicals between cells, and even between species, reminds me of neural activity. Mycorrhizal connections exist between two or more species of trees with the mycelium acting as a middlething exchanging nutrients between them.

Crazy theory here, but perhaps psilocybin acts as a neurotransmitter for the mushroom, after all it is very similar to our neurotransmitters and the fungi kingdom is said to be closer to animal than plant. Or perhaps it is like others have said; that it is meant to communicate to us.

To throw quantum theory into the mix: it has been shown that particles that have existed together (such as within the same atom) share a quantum link. These particles can be (seeminly) any distance apart and when the state of one changes the state of the other also changes instantaneously (truely instantaneously; no passage of time). So this molecule with many particles is in a fungus, many of these molecules are eaten by an animal, a quantum link exists now between a chemical that is like a neurotransmitter, in the brain of this animal, and the fungus. A route of communication.

Thank you for reading this.


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"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: nermski]
    #1054424 - 11/15/02 02:44 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"In fact, mushrooms are a gift from God himself"

I think you've got it backwards....

In fact, God is a gift from the mushroom itself.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1054441 - 11/15/02 02:53 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"Psilocybin may have easily been a "poison". It could have made animals less likely to eat it."

I think its fun to think of it as the opposite! The mushroom knows that advanced intelligences use and appreciate psychoactive substances, and will gladly assist reproduction of the mushroom (as many of us do in our own homes!) in exchange for this psychoactivity :smile:

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
but I really have no clue...


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1054445 - 11/15/02 02:55 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"In fact, God is a gift from the mushroom itself."

Good call, Strumpling!!!  :grin: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (11/15/02 03:21 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1054866 - 11/15/02 06:40 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

That's right. What I mean is that the mushroom mutated and made psilocybin and then FINALLY we found a use for it which means that we grow and spread all kinds of psychedelic mushrooms all over the world thus ensuring psilocybes a place in the future, which is evolutionary success! Here's another example:

Of course, no one knows the true history of the mushroom, but the fact that in the last century, Wasson was ONLY able to find psilocybin usage among one tiny remote Mexican village speaks volumes against this theory. To this date, the only other known usage was in the Aztec and Mayan cultures; hardly a force for worldwide mutation.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: psyphon]
    #1054921 - 11/15/02 07:30 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

perhaps psilocybin acts as a neurotransmitter for the mushroom, after all it is very similar to our neurotransmitters 



perhaps we should inject serotonin into a shroom and see if it wigs out.
nice idea tho, in our brains, i guess, serotonin just sits, sponged up in a lump of meat and juice. :tongue: 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1054928 - 11/15/02 07:39 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So what you are in essence saying, is that serotonin evolved to satisfy the tripping needs of the mushroom...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinebutter_flyfish
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1055094 - 11/15/02 10:09 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting points of view! I had no idea what to expect when I asked my question [being new to the forum] but my curiosity was sincere. The question wasn't really answered, whether because it's not known to science or just not known here, but I enjoyed the exchange of ideas.
Thanks to Dogomush for his nippless man analogy which was both entertaining and displayed the best understanding of natural selection driven evolution.
Also thanks to Strumpling for the mushroom created God comment just because it happens to agree with my own theory of the origin of all metaphysical beliefs [that they come from the imagination of Man, whether or not psychoactives are used to liberate them].
Cool stuff people! Keep thinking!


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1055215 - 11/15/02 11:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)


In reply to:

we found a use for it which means that we grow and spread all kinds of psychedelic mushrooms all over the world thus ensuring psilocybes a place in the future, which is evolutionary success!


In reply to:

Wasson was ONLY able to find psilocybin usage among one tiny remote Mexican village speaks volumes against this theory.




Well, what I mean is that in the past the mushroom HASN'T been enjoying evolutionary success from its psilocybin production. Today, though, things are different. Thanks to the interest in cultivating mushrooms for their psychoactive properties spore companies are taking mushroom spores from, say, Spain (psilocybe hispanica) and selling them to North Americans who live in similar climates, where the cultivators establish outdoor beds. The Hispanicas grow up, release spores, and if they can they establish themselves in the wild.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: psyphon]
    #1055223 - 11/15/02 11:38 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Psyphon that must be the best post I've seen on this board in years. Thanks.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Metasyn]
    #1055224 - 11/15/02 11:38 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

So what is the latent evolutionary value of psilocybin? The main question is still not answered.


yes it is. The evolutionary value is our interest in it. We like it, and so people establish sites like the shroomery. I think this website is an evolutionary catalyst.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1055249 - 11/15/02 11:52 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Wasson was ONLY able to find psilocybin usage among one tiny remote Mexican village speaks volumes against this theory. To this date, the only other known usage was in the Aztec and Mayan cultures; hardly a force for worldwide mutation.

Utter nonsense. Mushroom use was widespread throughout south america as evidenced by the hundreds of religious mushrooms stones found. Their use was curtailed by brutal suppression by the spanish. If you were caught taking mushrooms you were tortured and killed.

Mushroom cave paintings have been found in Africa and there is evidence that suggests they were in use throughout India and the far east.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: psyphon]
    #1055251 - 11/15/02 11:54 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Most psilocybian mushrooms grow in temporary habitats. Dung, decomposing wood, etc. Often near animal disturbance. Interesting also is that Canabis seems to "follow" animal activity.


Yeah, but so does crab grass, and lots of other plants. Do mushrooms grow around human settlements because we use it or do we use it because it grows near our settlements? The size of the human population leaves a huge footprint wherever it goes. With every step comes a destruction and then regeneration. Lots of plants are designed to get a strong grip right after a disturbance. Lodgepole pine cones are designed to open and germinate at 50C, a temperature which occurs with a forest fire or with direct sunlight cooking the dirt around the cone but never under the shady canopy of a healthy forest. Morel mushrooms, fire weed, thimbleberry bushes, and certain deciduous trees like alder flourish after fires as well. Fire weed jumps up in all the clearcuts I've seen in BC, so it's another organism that follows the human race.

I'm satisfied with the theory of evolution through random mutations, and so I don't want to complicate things by throwing in conciousness-driven theories and all the rest. The mainstream accepted theory is the most simple and fills any gaps I can find. What's that theory called where the simplest answer is probably the right one? I think it applies here. I'd be interested to check out the new theory psyphon is talking about, though. Where can I read about it?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1055274 - 11/15/02 12:09 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Their use was curtailed by brutal suppression by the spanish. If you were caught taking mushrooms you were tortured and killed.

So in essence, the mushrooms "seeing" the future, actually evolved to punish the Indians using the Spaniards as their intrument of death. Those clever fungi!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1055312 - 11/15/02 12:31 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So in essence, the mushrooms "seeing" the future, actually evolved to punish the Indians using the Spaniards as their intrument of death. Those clever fungi!

Am i really supposed to answer this rubbish swami?  :laugh:



 


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1055454 - 11/15/02 01:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Please try to be open-minded there Alex. The mushrooms are more powerful than you know.


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (11/15/02 02:29 PM)


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: Swami]
    #1055633 - 11/15/02 02:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Swami, you are missing a major point, nobody is saying that psilocybin is responsible for everything that it causes. The Spaniards used their own free will to persecute the indians. Dogomush, your rejection of modern science, and your contentment at not knowing enough has been a major obstacle in the history of science, religion, and philosophy.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Evolutionary value of psilocybin? [Re: butter_flyfish]
    #1055755 - 11/15/02 02:43 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Here's a theory guaranteed to send swami into apoplexy...

http://imprint.uwaterloo.ca/issues/090100/4Human/features01.shtml

I mentioned that this life transforming experience is about communication, it turns out that it could be with extra-terrestrial life.

It?s possible that mushrooms are in fact from outer space.

Mushroom spores are a deep deep purple - the colour they would have to be to absorb the ultraviolet radiation that comes with any inter-planetary or inter-galactic space travel.

The spore casing is one of the hardest organic substances known, and it?s electron density borders is almost that of a metal.

If that were all, you might not be convinced. Consider this - there is no fossil record of the species older than 40,000,000 years.

Similar soft-bodied organisms, worms and other benthic marine invertebrates, can be found that date back over 1,000,000,000 years, so the explanation that this particular species does not fossilize well can be brought into question.

Over periods of time, mushroom spores could travel on global air currents up into the upper reaches of a planet?s atmosphere, and every once in a while a couple could make the jump into space.

Genetically engineered for space travel, the spores would float along until they happened upon another planet.

Granted, it is not space travel as we know it - there is no hyper-drive or warp speed - but the universe has been around long enough for this type of travel to make a lot of sense. In fact, it?s based upon the same principle that many life forms of this planet use to get around.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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