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meatcakeman
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: Noteworthy]
#11343660 - 10/29/09 06:26 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Noteworthy said: yes It really does seem like these 'mirror neurons' are just like any other neuron - the only reason they are considered any different is because...?
They are triggered by a third-party, non-endogenous visual/conceptual stimulus, so to speak. It's not like pain where it comes from physical stimuli.
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Noteworthy
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: meatcakeman]
#11343668 - 10/29/09 06:30 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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since when did this have to do with extra-sensory perception?
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: Noteworthy]
#11343678 - 10/29/09 06:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Noteworthy said: since when did this have to do with extra-sensory perception?
Firstly, it very much has to do with sensory perception, rather than extra-sensory perception.
Where do you get the idea that I think otherwise.
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A mirror neuron is a neuron that fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another.
Does an animal not observe with a sensory perception?
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Noteworthy
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: meatcakeman]
#11343962 - 10/29/09 08:20 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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you said that it was 'not like pain, which sense physical stimuli'
But, all senses work off physical stimuli, so I cant see how mirror neurons can differ from pain neurons in the way you describe, without appealing to 'extra sensory' perception.
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kydelic
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redgreenvines said: I think the whole theory is a construct to miminize our respect of "lower" animals.
the whole brain is the mirror system the whole brain operates as an associative processor simmilarity in events causes recall, and recall causes reactions I am not surprised at all that amimals have much or our cognitive ability especially the basics of associative processing.
I seriously doubt that any mirror neuron will be discovered.
association is the domain/function of the whole brain.
Have you ever taken any courses or anything in neurobiology?
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yes It really does seem like these 'mirror neurons' are just like any other neuron - the only reason they are considered any different is because...?
Their function.
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But, all senses work off physical stimuli, so I cant see how mirror neurons can differ from pain neurons in the way you describe, without appealing to 'extra sensory' perception.
Not all neurons work with physical stimuli, and not all are for sense. There are motor neurons (control motor function), interneurons (processing information, sometimes physical stimuli, not always), and more. Neurons are all affected by chemicals, hence our drugs.
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Noteworthy
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: kydelic]
#11344242 - 10/29/09 09:51 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't disagree?
What is so special about mirror neuron function?
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dstark
Manifesting Minds
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: Poid]
#11344309 - 10/29/09 10:07 AM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Poid said: From: Mirror neuron - Wikipedia
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The function of the mirror system is a subject of much speculation. Many researchers in cognitive neuroscience and cognitive psychology consider that this system provides the physiological mechanism for the perception action coupling (see the common coding theory). These mirror neurons may be important for understanding the actions of other people, and for learning new skills by imitation. Some researchers also speculate that mirror systems may simulate observed actions, and thus contribute to theory of mind skills, while others relate mirror neurons to language abilities. It has also been proposed that problems with the mirror system may underlie cognitive disorders, particularly autism. However the connection between mirror neuron dysfunction and autism remains speculative and it is unlikely that mirror neurons are related to many of the important characteristics of autism.
Pretty interesting. thanks.
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laserpig
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: Noteworthy]
#11344866 - 10/29/09 12:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Noteworthy said: I don't disagree?
What is so special about mirror neuron function?
this has already been said multiple times
here goes again: mirror neurons are a subset of the neurons which fire when any given action is performed, that also have the unique property of firing identically when the given action is observed get it?
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Noteworthy
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: laserpig]
#11345002 - 10/29/09 12:38 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I get it.. but you havn't shown why this is special? Of all the neurons that fire when an action is performed, some also fire when the action is seen? I mean I agree that they are likely to be implicated in autism.. in certain ways.. along with heaps of other neuron 'types'
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laserpig
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: Noteworthy]
#11345055 - 10/29/09 12:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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one minute you're admitting you have no idea what mirror neurons are, and the next you're saying this?
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Noteworthy said: I mean I agree that they are likely to be implicated in autism.. in certain ways.. along with heaps of other neuron 'types'
two facepalms in a row is too much but i think you see where i'm going with this
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Noteworthy
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: laserpig]
#11345661 - 10/29/09 02:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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this thread is a discussion, I can ask questions in order to get answers, not just to inform myself.
Have you looked at the mirror neuron research?
I express skepticism about the significance of these findings, other than as a casual finding of a type of neuronal response that we ought to expect. And it happens to be something that is related to autism. But how can it be used to help autistic people?
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kydelic
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: Noteworthy]
#11348128 - 10/29/09 08:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I express skepticism about the significance of these findings, other than as a casual finding of a type of neuronal response that we ought to expect.
Why should we expect it? These aren't neurons firing to process or take in visual perception.
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And it happens to be something that is related to autism. But how can it be used to help autistic people?
At this early stage I believe the autism link is tenuous, at best. More basic research needs to be done to effectively address various behavioral disorders.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: Noteworthy]
#11348297 - 10/29/09 08:57 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Noteworthy said: you said that it was 'not like pain, which sense physical stimuli'
But, all senses work off physical stimuli, so I cant see how mirror neurons can differ from pain neurons in the way you describe, without appealing to 'extra sensory' perception.
I meant physical as in material, not sensory. Sexual stimuli could be from visual perception and physical touch. Thus, it transcends the boundary of physical, and into sensory. Just an example of what I'm trying to say.
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Noteworthy
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: kydelic]
#11348320 - 10/29/09 09:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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they are firing to take in visual perception - particular abstract information in a visual scene. Just like, some information is simple, eg detecting lines and shapes and stuff. And other information is more abstract such as reading a poem that is written in a strange style. Other information is even more abstract - translating into actions that one could take themself. Imitation is one of the most fundamental aspects of human behavior... and people don't think about it much. Thus we should expect there to be a system in place for quickly translating visual information into 'imitation potential' Tis likely the same sort of thing as empathy, too
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kydelic
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: Noteworthy]
#11348413 - 10/29/09 09:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Other information is even more abstract - translating into actions that one could take themself. Imitation is one of the most fundamental aspects of human behavior... and people don't think about it much. Thus we should expect there to be a system in place for quickly translating visual information into 'imitation potential'
Reading information starts with sensory neurons, your eyes see the words, however the presence of recognizable words causes more and more neurons to fire, especially in various areas, allowing us to 'read.' Just because this could be expected doesn't make the discovery any less momentous.
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Noteworthy
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: kydelic]
#11348510 - 10/29/09 09:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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honestly, psychology is still like alchemy once was... there is no coherent model of the mind/brain. We should set out sights higher.. maybe I expect too much
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: Noteworthy]
#11348762 - 10/29/09 09:46 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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No expanding subject can truly suffice for the sheer magnitude of human life; or even Life for that matter. Biology doesn't suffice. Psychology doesn't suffice. Philosophy doesn't suffice. Physics doesn't suffice.
Sometimes you have to mix these subjects up a bit to conjure what you're seeking. For example, neuroscience with a dash of philosophy will have you attempting to define consciousness.
Don't overlook psychology. It has its purpose. Although it is an ever-expanding subject, it holds value concurrently with our contemporary times for it is an ingredient, itself, and not the main course.
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kydelic
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: Noteworthy]
#11349066 - 10/29/09 10:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Noteworthy said: honestly, psychology is still like alchemy once was... there is no coherent model of the mind/brain. We should set out sights higher.. maybe I expect too much
I'm a psychology student. I'm sticking on the neurobiology (ie real science) side, and plan on going to grad school for my PhD when I'm done (very very soon!). We have a fairly good model of the brain, but just like with any young science, it needs touching up. We've made great strides since the beginning of the century, and computers, discoveries of DNA and RNA, and molecular biology have expanded our knowledge in the field exponentially. Psychology is a fairly young subject for the hard scientist and biologist, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be studied, in fact it means it should be studied with more vigor and more force.
We don't have computers that can even near the computational complexity of the human brain, and it's quite a bitch to do any observational research on living brains, for both ethical, technological, and methodical reasons. Brain science is a pretty difficult research area, but also one of the most important. Our models work better than they ever did and they are constantly improving.
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Sometimes you have to mix these subjects up a bit to conjure what you're seeking. For example, neuroscience with a dash of philosophy will have you attempting to define consciousness.
Most definitely. This is one of the many things that makes brain study so fascinating. This is what makes us who we are, and simple explanation of 'how' isn't sufficient without the 'why,' which we get from philosophy, ethics, and all that. Much of psychology is focused on correcting 'disorders,' but disorders (look at the history of schizophrenia and about controversies with the DSM) are also based more on cultural mores, religion, politics, and many other things that are not science so it is difficult to accurately study them. We get help when we go from the ground up, however, because if we can find the underlying biological causes of symptoms that are lumped into a disorder, we can not only more accurately define the disorders, but we can more effectively treat them.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: kydelic]
#11349227 - 10/29/09 10:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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kydelic said:
Quote:
Sometimes you have to mix these subjects up a bit to conjure what you're seeking. For example, neuroscience with a dash of philosophy will have you attempting to define consciousness.
Most definitely. This is one of the many things that makes brain study so fascinating. This is what makes us who we are, and simple explanation of 'how' isn't sufficient without the 'why,' which we get from philosophy, ethics, and all that. Much of psychology is focused on correcting 'disorders,' but disorders (look at the history of schizophrenia and about controversies with the DSM) are also based more on cultural mores, religion, politics, and many other things that are not science so it is difficult to accurately study them. We get help when we go from the ground up, however, because if we can find the underlying biological causes of symptoms that are lumped into a disorder, we can not only more accurately define the disorders, but we can more effectively treat them.
I concur. That's why I'm a neurology major, myself. The brain is fascinating. To think that a simple collective mass of lobes is responsible for consciousness, perception, thought, etc. is absolutely incredible. The brain coincides with everything we do, and that's why I love it.
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Noteworthy
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Re: The 'Mirror Neuron' Theory [Re: meatcakeman]
#11349379 - 10/29/09 11:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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well, I study psychology too... my favourite area is perception... and 'human factors'.
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