|
fearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Loc:
|
religion does not cause problems?
#5584695 - 05/03/06 07:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I'd like to start up another debate over the positive and negative things religion has done for societies throughout history. Lets try to keep away from the morality debate here. An example of a good thing would be peace and hope for an enslaved people.
Here are some examples of the bad things I've found. I'm mainly sticking to christianity because that is what I'm most familiar with, but feel free to use whatever you like!
The old testament God constantly punished (re: murdered) people for fornication such as sodom and gomorrah, then turned Lot's wife to salt for turning around.
God led his 'chosen' people out of egypt to the land of milk and honey, and destroyed Jericoh, a city that was already inhabited, in order to give it to 'his people'.
In american culture, homosexuals are being denied civil rights, with no better explanation then "the bible says two men can't be married".
In american culture one or two hundred years ago blacks were being denied civil rights in the same way.
The native american tribes at the dawn of the "discovery" of america were tortured and murdered as heathens. There were major catholic church debates as to whether the natives were even human, and whether to convert or kill them.
FREAKING ISRAEL AND PALESTINE!
The crusades!
I'm actually getting tired of naming all of these rather then running out of ideas so I'm going to end my list here.
I've seen someone use the analogy "guns dont kill people, people kill people" as "religion doesnt kill people, people kill people". This analogy is bad, but works on a couple levels. First off, religion (god) did(does?) in fact kill people. Lots of people according to the bible anyway. However, a gun has no influence over what a person should think, it can claim no responsibility for what it's user does with it. Religion has a HUGE influence on people. Not just HUGE but ENORMOUS! In fact, there is probably nothing that controls people more strongly than religion. True religion may not have killed people, but it sure as hell convinced the people doing the killing that they were doing the right thing and to continue.
You can't use the argument that the murderous religion following people were not following the religion the "right way", or that their religion was flawed. For one this is entirely relative. And second of all, their religion was/is a religion too, no matter how much yours may have evolved away from it!
I can think of no religion that offers absolutely zero threat of oppression.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: fearfect]
#5584761 - 05/03/06 08:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
religion does not cause problems
Yes, true!
People cause the problems and if they are of bad intent or want to manipulate or control or harm others they find religion a useful tool for these ends. If there was not religion they would find another way to reach the same ends. And of course the sheep will still find a way to be sheep.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/03/06 08:21 AM)
|
a_h_w
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 236
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: fearfect]
#5584775 - 05/03/06 08:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
what if you make freedom your religious call? what if you understand that you can't give up nor can you resist for ultimately life & death always catch up with you (those damned twins...) what if you try to think for yourself and simultaneously accept others ideas as an experience to be tried and only afterwards proven right or wrong. what if you carefully try to think each step with great care because you understand you're walking in the wind with a fragile candle in your hand? what if you fall and still cling to your wounds to get up and try again, one time and another until you succeed? who said freedom was easy to achieve? maybe we really need a new religion that can be of no one at all.
|
fearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Loc:
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: Icelander]
#5584805 - 05/03/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
ok.. thanks for the input guys.
What I'm talking about is organized religion. I ask that you guys read the whole post before commenting.
If it weren't for religion, what motive would people have to condemn gays? My point is that nonsensical beliefs similar to this have been inbred in people. If their religion had not planted this in their minds, I believe it wouldn't be an issue at all.
Laws such as don't eat pigs were in place to protect the health of civilizations from themselves. Perhaps anti-sodomy laws were put in place to promote procreation in a relatively small civilization.
Both of these are totally irrelevant now
|
fearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Loc:
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: Icelander]
#5584819 - 05/03/06 08:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
another example would be muslim extremists committing suicide in the name of Allah. Do you honestly think that they would find some other reason to commit suicide? Are they all depressed and use Allah's will as an excuse to kill themselves?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: fearfect]
#5585134 - 05/03/06 10:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Something like that. If your life sucks and you are full of fear, anger and rage, for whatever reason. You will find a way to act on this. Politics works just as well as religion IMO.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: fearfect]
#5585162 - 05/03/06 10:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I think that religion appeals to a need within all of us to have hope for the future. The problem is that this is easily taken advantage of by people seeking power. And so they will create dogmas that reinforce their power, and keep people from finding their own spiritual truths.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: Silversoul]
#5585198 - 05/03/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Akamatsu
Seeker

Registered: 01/29/06 
Posts: 285
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: Silversoul]
#5585221 - 05/03/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I think this is more of a statement then a discussion. It's pretty obvious religious extremists are the root of a lot of the worlds past and present problems. However, abolishing religion won't solve those problems either. It is up to the individual to break free from ignorance and gain independence.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: Akamatsu]
#5585235 - 05/03/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Lovely,
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: fearfect]
#5585254 - 05/03/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fearfect said: another example would be muslim extremists committing suicide in the name of Allah. Do you honestly think that they would find some other reason to commit suicide? Are they all depressed and use Allah's will as an excuse to kill themselves?
i don't know if they would suicide bomb but they would still fight....
because when you live in a war ravaged society you're going to believe that violence is okay, no matter what.
heck America is a peaceful society (sort of) but we still believe violence is okay and awesome.... we just can't get up off our couches to go and mess with people we don't like, because we're lazy and let our armies and politicians do all the work. but we still cheer them on from the couch, waving that red white and blue saying NUKE THEM ALL!!! spewing slanders and slurs for those that we are conditioned to fear and hate.
very untrue generalization.... it's not that extreme..... but it's an illustration.
you have to look at religion as a function of God vs a function of MAN...... Christianity is a function of MAN in this world, where things like drug prohibition are encouraged, when in fact the Bible clearly states we are to use all his creations for our purpose and benefit, and that a plant will heal all the nations (hemp can provide us with some oil can't it?).... and the OT referenced using cannabis now and then.........
So for example let's say Buddhism.... it may have been corrupted here and there but it's a religion of peace. Buddhists don't kill people, generally.... they will just sit down and be peaceful and try to free themselves from this mess of a world. Christians kill people....... sometimes commit terrorism...... Muslims definitely kill people...... Jews kill Muslims.......
The big 3 (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) seem to be religions of control by man...... have been pillaged of their beauty and used to exploit by societies and nations. Political religions.
Part of the problem is the OT God smoted things..... and Mohammed smoted things...... and Jesus even made things a little vague "I cam not to bring peace but a sword" so it's quite a pickle.
Buddha said warriors fighting for God with the desire to deliberately destroy others would end up in hell.... those fighting for God that did not do so out of hate would end up in the animal realms. He was pretty clear about violence not being okay, even as an act of war.
Whereas the other religions say "violence is bad................... unless God has you do it"
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (05/03/06 11:05 AM)
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: fearfect]
#5585904 - 05/03/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Certain individuals appear to be drawn to the sense of belonging and importance religious and nationalist ideologies provide. For various reasons, often as a mechanism of escape, they neglect their individuality in order to attach themselves to something stronger, greater, and seemingly eternal. Since an outside force now defines the individual, s/he can be free of the anxiety or doubt associated with the responsibility of formulating his/her own identity and purpose.
Unfortunately, religion's values seem to usually be otherworldy and unhumanistic. Plus, given the anti-self nature of most religions, thinking for oneself is replaced by dogmas and absolutes. With the highest virtue being obedience to God, burning a person (such as Bruno) at the stake to save him from hell soon becomes a noble and rational duty to perform. (For more information regarding the dangers of self-denying mysticism and improper premises, please see Skorpivo.)
Dogma makes a convenient excuse for murder.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/03/06 01:46 PM)
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
As a side note: not everyone who believes in god is dogmatic and a lack of belief in god doesn't prevent you from also being dogmatic.
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: fearfect]
#5585955 - 05/03/06 02:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fearfect said: I'd like to start up another debate over the positive and negative things religion has done for societies throughout history. Lets try to keep away from the morality debate here. An example of a good thing would be peace and hope for an enslaved people.
Here are some examples of the bad things I've found. I'm mainly sticking to christianity because that is what I'm most familiar with, but feel free to use whatever you like!
The old testament God constantly punished (re: murdered) people for fornication such as sodom and gomorrah, then turned Lot's wife to salt for turning around.
God led his 'chosen' people out of egypt to the land of milk and honey, and destroyed Jericoh, a city that was already inhabited, in order to give it to 'his people'.
In american culture, homosexuals are being denied civil rights, with no better explanation then "the bible says two men can't be married".
In american culture one or two hundred years ago blacks were being denied civil rights in the same way.
The native american tribes at the dawn of the "discovery" of america were tortured and murdered as heathens. There were major catholic church debates as to whether the natives were even human, and whether to convert or kill them.
FREAKING ISRAEL AND PALESTINE!
The crusades!
I'm actually getting tired of naming all of these rather then running out of ideas so I'm going to end my list here.
I've seen someone use the analogy "guns dont kill people, people kill people" as "religion doesnt kill people, people kill people". This analogy is bad, but works on a couple levels. First off, religion (god) did(does?) in fact kill people. Lots of people according to the bible anyway. However, a gun has no influence over what a person should think, it can claim no responsibility for what it's user does with it. Religion has a HUGE influence on people. Not just HUGE but ENORMOUS! In fact, there is probably nothing that controls people more strongly than religion. True religion may not have killed people, but it sure as hell convinced the people doing the killing that they were doing the right thing and to continue.
You can't use the argument that the murderous religion following people were not following the religion the "right way", or that their religion was flawed. For one this is entirely relative. And second of all, their religion was/is a religion too, no matter how much yours may have evolved away from it!
I can think of no religion that offers absolutely zero threat of oppression.
That god made humanity and invented morality for them, so he can do whatever he wants, as much as you are alowed to arrange your computer desktop any way you like
The idea is that killing itself is not either good or bad, it is just forbiden to people, probably because they have no knowledge about who god wants to spread his seed and who he wants to dissapear
and as for opression, well every idea of ethics and morality is a form of opression because it suggests what you should do, and in a way (at least with words) punishes those who don't act like that. Mothers opress their children, teacher opress students, police opresses criminals etc.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/03/06 02:06 PM)
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: fearfect]
#5586928 - 05/03/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
How many drug addicts and alcholics clean themselves up because of religion?
I noticed you put "god" in brackets right beside the word religion. This is a mistake as God is God, not religion. Religions are merely ideas pertaining to an ultimate, pure truth.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: Basilides]
#5587029 - 05/03/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Basilides said: How many drug addicts and alcholics clean themselves up because of religion?
I haven't been following the thread, so I have no context in which to consider this statement (and, as I am baked, I don't have the resources to read the whole thread without losing my train of thought relating to your statement ).
It is entirely possible to interpret religious outreach to alcoholics and drug addicts as a strategy to spread their religion, as people who are suffering major problems in their life will be less resistant to being converted, so to speak.
Does religion prey upon the weak in order to propagate its own existance? I think it does. I see religion as being of the same as a labor union. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5587044 - 05/03/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
What about a drug addict who persues religion on his own, not by missionaries or evangelism?
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5587052 - 05/03/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I see religion as being of the same as a labor union.
You f____ing management types are all alike.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: Icelander]
#5587062 - 05/03/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Power to the Workers
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: religion does not cause problems? [Re: Basilides]
#5587069 - 05/03/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
You mean the sheepies.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
|