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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: native american indians [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #509544 - 01/03/02 10:25 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

>Indians would rape, scalp and then loot their victims...

Which, if nothing else, atleast proves they were fast learners...

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OfflineArchDruid
addict
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 268
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 22 years, 3 months
Re: native american indians [Re: Pynchon]
    #509548 - 01/03/02 10:30 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

HELL YEAH Pynchon!!!!!


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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Offlinedrunkgoat
addict

Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 406
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: native american indians [Re: ArchDruid]
    #509578 - 01/03/02 11:03 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

"you think it wasn't by design that they introduced us to alcohol."

Hmm..so lets analyze this, you are saying that because Alcohol was made available to Indians, that it was somehow part of a great scheme by the white man to destroy the Indians right? you are a joker, your feeble bow and arrows are no match for white engineered guns and armor. Just because your pathetic Indian race did not have the cranial capacity to develop and create new technologies, by law of Darwin, they deserved to die.

"we stole guns to make the playing field even"

War is war. Strong conquer weak. Is it the white mans fault that the total Indian population spawned from about 10 Indians that came to north America? Please do not say anything about white inbreeding because all Indians are FAR more inbred than any white person (excluding persons of the state of Alabama). Your rampant inbreeding caused a stigma in the Indian gene pool, common traits such as: laziness, ugliness, and even low IQ were subsequently passed through many generations of inbred Indians. Your genes came from a small portion of the total human gene pool, and if you compare the human gene pool to an actual swimming pool, the Indian gene pool would be the shallow end where little kids piss a lot. Indians couldn't compete, and we once again go back to Darwin, since your race offered nothing to support the advancement of humanity, you deserved to be killed off and crammed into reserves. You should be happy that the white man even let you keep any of his proudly conquered land. You ingrate full bastard.

"And by the way horses were originally native to the continent, they just went extinct."

Well who's fault is it that the horses in North America were brought to extinction? Certainly not the white mans. What's all this bullshit you Indians talk about being close with nature and shit, you killed off all the horses, yeah that's really respecting nature.

Indians are good for nothing in today's society, actually I shouldn't say that, it sounds too negative, Indians are good for: causing trouble, as lab rats to test experimental drugs on, as lab rats to test new bio and chemical weapons on, as scientific Guinea pigs for radiation experiments. Hmm I can't think of anything else Indians are good for.

In short, it would have been better if the white mans diseases killed all you stinky, ugly, very un-intelligent, small cranial capacity, lazy, unproductive, wastes of bio matter.


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Give a man a match and he will be warm for an hour. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Edited by drunkgoat (01/03/02 11:13 PM)

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OfflineCOZMKSTRCHLD
member
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 113
Loc: sn-sky-mun-strz
Last seen: 21 years, 5 months
Re: native american indians [Re: ArchDruid]
    #509594 - 01/03/02 11:16 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

damn, some people are showin their true colors. it's pretty sad. i hope that all the millions of dollars that the reservation casinos bring in will someday buy back the vast expanse of prime sacred land that was swindled from the indian nations. they respect the earth. they belong to the earth. we think the earth belongs to us. something just aint right.

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Offlinedrunkgoat
addict

Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 406
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: native american indians [Re: COZMKSTRCHLD]
    #509609 - 01/03/02 11:25 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

i swear to god, i want to kill all the fucking indians left. They have the audacity to take over the land we (white man) rightfully conquerd from them and expect us to give it back to them because they claim that they are "ancient indian buriel grounds" bullshit. if anything dig up the bones, stick em in garbage bags and throw them in an incinerator then hand the indians the bill for that operation then open a wal-mart on top off the place.


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Give a man a match and he will be warm for an hour. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: native american indians [Re: COZMKSTRCHLD]
    #509612 - 01/03/02 11:28 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

COZMKSTRCHLD, the indians never owned any land before the white men gave them land. The indian societies never had any private land ownership. They had a communistic communal view of land ownership. They thought the land belonged to everyone. In reality their land ownership philosophy caused no one to own land. This is why the whites never stole the 'indians land'. Because they never owned the land it wasnen't stolen from them. The whites just sort of appropriated the land that no one had previously claimed for themselves.

Take care


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Offlinedrunkgoat
addict

Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 406
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: native american indians [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #509619 - 01/03/02 11:32 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

the indians were just asking to be fucked up the ass, and the white man kindly obliged.


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Give a man a match and he will be warm for an hour. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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OfflineArchDruid
addict
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 268
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 22 years, 3 months
Re: native american indians [Re: drunkgoat]
    #509651 - 01/04/02 12:07 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

If there is any justice, I will meet you two someday. And then may whatever god you choose to believe in be paying attention that day, you had better hope to blue hell he is anyway.

Interesting side note, they estimate by the year 2009, most major Indian sovereign nations will be self sufficient. And unless you guys decide to rape and pillage like your ancestors, we shall see who outlast who.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: native american indians [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #509693 - 01/04/02 12:43 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

They didn't need land "ownership". There was -- and still is -- plenty for everyone. The concept of ownership has little meaning if no one has ever tried to steal anything from you, as was the case for the first 40,000 or so years of American indian existence. To try and reduce this to a property dispute is an expert attempt at missing the point, particularly after dragging out the old (and irrelevant) "indians weren't no angels" rubbish.

Incidentally, you might want to read some of drunkgoats posts in this thread...because, like it or not, you two appear to be on the same side...

Sleep well.

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OfflineArchDruid
addict
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 268
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 22 years, 3 months
Re: native american indians [Re: Pynchon]
    #509704 - 01/04/02 12:54 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I along with any rational human being cannot see any resemblence(sp?), and I take a heavy offence to that statement.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: native american indians [Re: Pynchon]
    #509714 - 01/04/02 01:03 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I'de like to point out that I in no way condone Drunkgoats cruel and hateful statements. I don't agree with his view of indians as anything less than human. I'm not on his 'side' or anyone elses 'side'.

I think the ponts I made are valid. After all I learned it in high school history class. It's recorded history, not my opinion. And indians weren't angels, they were uncivilized stone age people. We made better use of the land then they would have anyways. We have roads and houses. They had dirt paths and mud huts. I think the indians in America are much better off now then they would otherwise be if the white man haden't been around north america. It's called quality of life...


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: native american indians [Re: ArchDruid]
    #509729 - 01/04/02 01:33 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

ArchDruid --

I'm not sure which statement of mine you take heavy offence to. Sorry anyway, I guess...

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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: native american indians [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #509735 - 01/04/02 01:46 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Rail_Gun --

I probably shouldn't have judged your points by the company they keep. Your argument is still flawed tho', because by your reasoning if a hypothetical society existed in which homicide was unknown (along with laws prohibiting it), and somebody from "outside" came in and killed someone, no crime would have been committed. This line of reasoning becomes even more ridiculous if the afore-mentioned "outsider" happens to come from somewhere with very clear laws against murder. IMHO, occupation of land for tens of thousands of years constitutes ownership.

I'd like to get into that "quality of life" bit too, but I'm about to head out...no prizes for guessing what it is I want to say, tho'...;)

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OfflineArchDruid
addict
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 268
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 22 years, 3 months
Re: native american indians [Re: Pynchon]
    #509753 - 01/04/02 02:15 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Rail_Gun - your right and Im sorry for my statments, you were stating opinion not bigotism. Although I still very much disagree with your statements. But hey thats the point in conversation though huh.
but seriously "uncivilized", by whos standards, most concider the Indian nations MORE civilized by most standards. No murder, no crimes, no greed, no hording of resources, no pilaging of the earth, no wealth, actually they lack alot of the properties that we see as "evil" in todays society.
"better use of the land", again by whos standards. It was fine for us, and it was not your land to make better use out of. We did no permenant damage to the earth, we didnt plunder resources for delusions of wealth and power, we didnt cut down trees to "clear out" for our places of dwelling, the earth was the same by and large from the time we came here from asia to the time when you people came except for natural phenomina(sp?).
"better off""quality of life", jesus who are you people to judge. Your god damn missionaries spreading deseases were the most catastrophic thing to happen to indengenous people. Were better off, I hope you ask forgiveness for that statement before you meet your maker, I truely do. As for the quality of life, thats a joke. The society that replaced my peoples uses more than 80% of the worlds resources and contributes almost nill. We supported ourselfs, fed our people, and took care of the land. Are we doing the same today? 90% of the american population holds 1% of the wealth. In my culture there were no rich and poor, what we had we shared for the good of all. Most americans are below the poverty level, children are starving, people are killing other people, people are commiting ever sinful act imagineable, these things did not exist in this land before the whites came. Better off, better quality of life? For who, definetly not me, nor most of the other people in this country except for about the top 5%, and Im not one of them, neither are most of my people.
Pynchon - I took offence to you comparing me to that bigot asshole DrunkGoat. What the hell else would have upset me?


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: native american indians [Re: ArchDruid]
    #509781 - 01/04/02 02:51 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't read everything that has been said here, I trailed off when it all fell into a bitching match. I just wanted to clarify some things...

"Indians" is a very broad statement. What you don't realize is that there were many different tribes (well, yes you probably all realize that) and each tribe had different practices. I'm not an expert on this anymore, I knew a lot more at one time, and a friend of mine knows pretty much all you can learn about it without a University prof at your disposal. (He kept me informed.)
While some tribes did have very savage practices, such as torturing and wreaking general havoc, that was definately not the case with all tribes. The majority was in fact your regular Thanksgiving story... No tribe attempted genocide without provocation, and I'm sure that few of them attempted it with plenty of provocation. On the other hand, the white man attempted genocide after great hospitality. You want to talk about savage? It was perfectly acceptable for a white man to skin two indians. One to make a pair of leggings for himself, and the other to make a pair for his wife, or commander. Look at some of the massacres, Wounded Knee being the only one that I can name right now. When the natives started a new practice, a new dance and ceremony, the white man freaked out and began slaughtering every native he came across. Do you know what this dance was? It was a dance of peace and acceptance, even of the white man who had already taken their homes, put them on the early reserves, and begun annhialating the buffalo. The natives had to be given food from the white man just to live, because there was no way they could feed themselves anymore. When the natives were supplied with rotten meat one day, some of them protested. This resulted in massacre. Children weren't good enough to be shot, they were stomped to death by boot heels to save ammo. This is fact. This is your heritage. Look it up, it's well documented in National Geographic... at least in Canada. (Where we learned some of this in Elementary school, and found the rest in the library. In fact I have some good books on just these issues, one of them made by National Geographic.)
Some of these events may have run together, and I apologize for that, but I'm not an encycolpedia... this is the best I can remember to put down in words.

Some of you obviously got your educations from John Wayne movies... cause you certainly haven't been educated on the American Indians.


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OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
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Re: native american indians [Re: ArchDruid]
    #509802 - 01/04/02 03:21 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Arch Druid, it's true that our civilization isn't really better than the indians stone age civilazation. Better is a truely subjective word. And subjective things are by their nature somewhat intangible so I won't argue the point.

If the indians had no murders or crime, I'de agree that they were a more socially advanced civilazation. But I find it a bit of a stretch to say there was no murder or crime because human nature is to some extent criminal and murderous. I'm aware of assinations in the 'cherokee nation' which occured for political reasons. I'm sure there was more crime than that though, every civilization has had crime and has had to deal with it. Afterall the first recorded laws are ancient, the code of Hammarabbi... And I'm sure that there were laws which predate that by a long shot.

Now I'de say that I think I would prefer to live in todays society than in the pre-columbian American society. I think my quality of life is greater now than it would have been then. Now I have indoor plumbing, electricity, a fine education including literacy, technologically advanced health care and medicine, a low infant mortality rate, a computer I'm writing this on, comfortable and adaquate clothing, a nice home, rubber soled shoes, and countless other things which I take for granted and you probably do as well. Certainly you may argue that if I was a pre-columbian native american I would be just as content as I am now and you may be right. But I surely wouldn't be as comfortable and likely neither would you.

BTW, you mentioned that indians lacked greed. Indians had their own forms of currency pre-dating white demons stepping foot on north america. Wampum were beads used as currency... The pre-columbian american indian tribes also had frequent wars with one another. Pre-columbian north america was by no means a utopian society. But neither is ours. Nor is any other.

Our current civilazation is more technologically advanced and we have our problems. Indian societys had theirs as well. I think I'de prefer my modern problems to the indians problem of surviving the elements and nature on a daily basis.

Take care


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: native american indians [Re: ArchDruid]
    #509892 - 01/04/02 06:37 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Don't give in to hate like those other idiots if not you will become like them.
I feel for your people and admiere there culture and philosopy.
White people where like them at one point but there lost there way, they separated them self from nature they lost tuch with God.
But now the earth is dying for our miss use of her and all will pay the price.
I belive that there is an earth conciousness growing from all races now and a longing to go back to the earth.
But I fell it may be to late, especialy the way things are going.


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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: native american indians [Re: ArchDruid]
    #509953 - 01/04/02 09:18 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Am far too wrecked to be sensible, but:

ArchDruid: at no point did I compare you to drunkgoat. The post that I suspect you are whining about was directed at Rail_Gun. A possible tip-off might have been that the post was addressed to him/her.

Edited by Pynchon (01/04/02 10:36 AM)

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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: native american indians [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #509985 - 01/04/02 10:15 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

>I think I'd prefer my problems to the indians problems of surviving the elements and nature on a daily basis...

The average working day for a hunter-gatherer has been established as being a little over five hours per day (don't ask me for references until tomorrow...late tomorrow). How long do you work just to earn money you can exchange for food?

...erm, you don't occupy land for 40,000 years if your just "surviving"...

To say that you would prefer to live in "todays society" (what's that, exactly?) has little bearing on whether or not ameri-indians feel the same way. Whoever it was in this thread that used the phrase "showing your true colours"...I would put it to you that, in your case, you're displaying a paler shade of white, perhaps? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that American Indians are over-represented in higher infant mortality rates, higher rates of alcoholism, ditto rates of imprisonment (ie, higher rates of getting caught), obesity, preventable illness blah blah blah commie pinko this, commie pinko that...

BTW, why shouldn't the indigenous population take advantage of the "white man's" "advances" -- your examples being "plumbing, electricity, a fine educatation including literacy (it's good to be fluent in a language you would never have encountered were it not for war, I guess? Just out of curiosity, do you speak German?) technologically advanced health care and medicine (what's the going rate for that shit, anyway?), a low infant mortality rate (ho ho ho), a computer I'm writing this on (implying technology should be denied to the poor? Pontificate on...), comfortable and adequate clothing, a nice home (almost by definition, no society has ever lacked these last two), rubber-soled shoes (whoopeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee)"....what were the countless other things?

Could probably offer a better argument during sobriety...let me know if I need one...............................................................

Edited by Pynchon (01/04/02 10:19 AM)

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Offlinerhiggatwat
Stranger

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 8
Loc: an acid drenched wonderla...
Last seen: 22 years, 5 months
Re: native american indians [Re: Pynchon]
    #510096 - 01/04/02 01:07 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

the greedy fucks that wiped out the native american are the same ones who are killing this earth. period.


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any colour you like....

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