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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3192725 - 09/28/04 08:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"The shaman realizes that the world consists of a Tonal (everything we have learned to fit into our perceptual schema and describe with language) and a nagual"

Ive explained again and again that these words are simply borrowed to explain the world of the waking conciousness and the worlds that the shaman enters in the shamanic states of conciousness. If they bother you so much ignore them it does nothing to change the message i was trying to convey. I simply knew that many people here have read those books and therefore used his terms and example as a way of getting the idea across

I still stand by my assertion that a key (if not THE) key aspect of shamanism is being able to enter ecstatic states, defined as 'stepping outside of normal waking conciousness'

I was simply using tonal and nagual , if you prefer you can use michael harners OSC (ordinary state of conciousness) and ssc (shamanic state of conciouness)

What i am saying is that although i borrowed castanedas words, the concept is represented in all true shamanism and is sound.

You might note that harner himself considers castaneda a valid source of shamanic knowledge.

He mentions it in his introduction and throughout way of the shaman.


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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (09/28/04 08:37 PM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3192749 - 09/28/04 08:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"When you hit the point that you have to agree with someone in order to prevent damage to their self image or ego then that is an indication that something erroneous is occuring. "

And what does this mean? "

and if we can briefly get back to the topic

I agree totally with this "I certainly have never lost touch with the sacredness of life. Nor have I killed for a few dollars. Nor do I know anyone who has.
Living inside houses and among technology does not cause crime and immorality"

i dont think the cause for human violence or evil or badness is large scale urbanized society any more than it is primitive tribal society. The cause for evil is somethin within all people living in every lifestyle. I dont claim to know exactly what that cause is.

In terms of simple violence we have some reason to believe the cause is genetic/biological because many of our interspecies-agressive behaviours are matched very closely by our nearest genetic cousins, the chimps.



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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (09/28/04 08:55 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Asante]
    #3193017 - 09/28/04 09:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with much of what you say, but the part about leaving books out of the equation would hinder any modern exploration of shamanism. The practice of shamanism presents the individual with a set of time honored and proven tools for the purpose. To ignore these tools and their traditional uses is like using an axe to rake your garden, or using a broom to cut down a tree. It is self defeating and innefficient. To JUST form a connection with nature is required for shamanism, but it is not shamanism, but there is no doubt that any human will benefit from forming this relationship regardless of their religious preference.

"Shamanism is of all times, whether it is in a circle of stones or a circle cast with spraypaint on an empty parkinglot under the sodium lights, it is a merging, reforging of the ties with Nature.
What is asphalt but the remains of ancient microbes and pebbles, and what is concrete but sand and rock?
The time always has been the NOW. We must adhere to traditions we truely grasp but also create traditions of our own."

That was well said and true, but we need a foundation to build these traditions on; what better building materials than the ancient flagstones of shamanic practice. Is this a sufficient comment?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha *DELETED* [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3193032 - 09/28/04 09:25 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by Moonshoe


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3193054 - 09/28/04 09:29 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It was a reply to wiccan seeker :wink:


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3193109 - 09/28/04 09:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

ehhhm Moonshoe.. he was addressing my post :cool:

Quote:


Personally I believe that in the absence of a Teacher you should look within, erase allyou thought of shamanism, get in touch with nature and let the process commence before adding books to the equasion.





I'm sorry I wasn't clear but i meant this as a sequence, with the emptying of the head and turning inward as a cleansing before bonding with Nature, and from the bond with nature study.
It is hard to adhere to traditions you don't fathom, one needs to find one's Self and Nature to reach harmony.

No books would be impractical for the western shaman as your Healer side would have to know which plant does what and how not to freeze to death in a winter forest. So we actually agree on this.

But we're relentlessly jacking this thread offtopic. Would "tribal stone-age shamanistic societies" be spiritually purer by their nature was the question i believe. Shall we go that path again?
We all agree Shamanism is the essence left, right, front and rear, but would a shamanic society tend to be more enlightened?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Asante]
    #3194793 - 09/29/04 10:14 AM (17 years, 30 days ago)

"Would "tribal stone-age shamanistic societies" be spiritually purer by their nature was the question i believe. Shall we go that path again?"

These people had their faults based on their superstitions and prejudices just like we do. Just as we have developed useful and innovative technologies so to did primitive societies, it just happens that they had different materials to work with, and they also had lots of free time for things such as self exploration. Maybe I would say that they were spiritually more pure by being closer to the source of creation by having a seamless connection with nature, but not in any other way. I see shamanic practice as a set of tools not unlike software development tools except instead of using them to modify computer software they are used to program our own internal "software".


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3195212 - 09/29/04 01:02 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

i love this part "What is asphalt but the remains of ancient microbes and pebbles, and what is concrete but sand and rock?"

never thought of it that way  :thumbup:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3197030 - 09/29/04 09:00 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

May I ask what your cultural heritage is? May I assume you aren't South American, and perhaps are a white North American of European ancestry? Correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's majorly problematic (and unintentionally genocidal) of white north american people to try and fit into an aboriginal culture they have no actual tie to. Going to the Amazon and spending a bunch of money to have an "authentic" aboriginal vision quest is exactly the kind of thing ignorant middle class white tourists do and has no real connection to any real culture or any authentic spiritual practice, no matter how strongly we white kids feel we need that kind of thing. I know we are all spiritually lacking to the utmost, and its really shitty but trying to take on the spiritual tradition of a culture that we are not related to is fucked up. Look to your landbase, get out in the woods (if you've got em, or the plains or the desert, or whatever you got thats wild) and connect with your own land. Connect with your own ancestral shamanic heritage, we may all claim roots to animistic, shamanic culture somewhere along the lines, we've just lost hold of it.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3197493 - 09/29/04 10:42 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

"I know we are all spiritually lacking to the utmost, and its really shitty but trying to take on the spiritual tradition of a culture that we are not related to is fucked up"

So your saying black people shouldnt be christians, only the chinese can be buddhist, only indians can be hindu?

Im not even gonna bother explaining why i think thats BullShit.


I think cultural genocide is when stupid white missionaries go to shamanistic/animistic tribes and indoctrinate them with their 'holy truth' thus destroying countless cultures.

What i plan to do is the opposite. I am going to peru one way or the other, for sightseeing and exploration and adventure, While i am there i also hope to meet interesting individuals, and especially individuals with some shamanic knowledge. I will simply aproach them as friends and equals, and politely question them about their spiritual beliefs and practices. I will listen and remember.

That is all. I see nothing damaging in this.

If one of them ends up spending long periods of time with me simply educating me , then i will politely ask if it would be appropriate to a give a gift of money in return for his gift of time and wisdom.

I am not going up to random shamanic practicioners and going "hey you! teach me your secrets and ill give you cash!"

think what you want. I simply wish to learn.

And i do connect with my own land. I practice shamanic practices and study shamanic knowledge here in canada and will continue to do so. But i deeply wish to see the amazon (before its all clearcut) and try to preserve some of the wisdom and memory of vanishing cultures (before they get wiped out by the expansion of oil companies)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3197896 - 09/30/04 12:20 AM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Well said.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3198270 - 09/30/04 01:35 AM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Im not even gonna bother explaining why i think thats BullShit.

Please explain.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3207446 - 10/02/04 07:04 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

There is a major difference between a religion like Christianity, which at this point is completely separated from any bioregion and actually wants to convert the whole world, and a shamanic indigenous form of spiritual practice that is completely connected to and springs from its own landbase and is culturall specific.

The issue here is cultural appropriation. If I, an Irish Canadian person was to start practicing a traditional haida shamanic methodology it would be totally disrespectful of the aboriginal people of this land. I am not a part of the culture which that specific spiritual practice is connected to so I cannot understand it or relate it to my ancestry or personal history. The only thing that could really come out of my cooption of thier tradition is white poeple stealing even more from them and turning it into something it isn't. I have a deep respect for the shamanic traditions of many indigenous cultures but I'm not indigenous and I have no right to steal thier traditions and make them my own.

However, since I am deeply drawn to shamanic practice, I certainly can seek out my own cultural heritage, I can learn directly from the land, learn to listen to the plants and animals, and ocean and wind and my own spirit and connect in that way. After all that is what shamanism is about. Direct communion with the earth and the spirit world. Placing myself in the realm of a tradition I have no connection to is disrespectful, false and genocidal and defeats the purpose of shamanic spirituality in the first place.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3207911 - 10/02/04 09:42 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

True, while studying other cultures to gain insite is good, utilizing culture specific practices is not only disrespectful, it is useless because the practice is specific to only that culture and not your own.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3208975 - 10/03/04 04:02 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Again, i fail to see what is disrespectfull or genocidal about seeking to learn the ideas and beliefs of a particular group. I still disagree that it is somehow impossible or inapropriate to learn and benefit from the wisdom of a person or group of people simply because they have a different skin colour, evolved in a different location or climate or wear different clothes.

Unlike you, i dont define myself by my ethnicity or location. I Dont say 'im a white canadian, so i must seek out the truth of other white canadians' every human culture in every place has made its own efforts to explain and explore the grand mystery of the human condition, and that effort is universal. The idea that the whites cannot learn from the blacks or the north americans cannot learn from the south americans, that the people of the plains cannot learn from the people of the forests... to me this idea is false, and it has no place in my life.

The shamanic experience is essentially universal, it is a process of percieving and interacting with the world beyond the physical, a way of touching the spiritual side of life. This process is accesible to all people. Some of their practices, relating to native flora or fauna or other things, such as specificities of ritual or ceremony, will not be applicable to my own life.

However, i do believe the underlieing concepts and truths are things that i can learn from regardless of how far away i was born.

"I have no right to steal thier traditions and make them my own."

Im not planning to 'steal' anything, im planning to ask those who know to share their version of truth with me. If THEY find that disrepectfull, they will refuse, and that is fine with me. Knowledge is not some possession to be jealously hoarded, and you dont lose it when you share it with another.

There is nothing genocidal about open mindedly and respectfully seeking to learn from the knowledge and wisdom of a culture thousands of years old.

What IS genocidal is clear cutting massive swathes of the rainforests that these people call home to expand agriculture and oil drilling. This is the process that will soon lead to the extinction of this cultures knowledge and way of life, and the only way any of that wisdom will be preserved for the benefit of humanity is if some of the first world starts to take an interest in the oral traditions of those cultures before they are gone forever.


"utilizing cultural specific pracitce is not only disrepectfull, it is also useless"

Im not sure if i understand what you mean by cultural specific practice. Give me some examples and maybe i can respond.

"think it's majorly problematic of white north american people to try and fit into an aboriginal culture they have no actual tie to"

Im not trying to 'fit in' to them im simply trying to learn from them.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (10/03/04 04:31 AM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3210010 - 10/03/04 04:30 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Moonshoe, I just wanna make sure its clear that I really do respect where you're coming from. You've got a lot more good ideas surrounding this stuff than a lot of people do and thats awesome. I also really understand and respect your quest for learning shamanic spirituality from the source. I should clarify, I don't think its genocidal or disrespectful to learn about a cultures form of spirituality for the sake of broadening ones perspective and exploring how different cultures explain the spiritual concepts we all instinctually share. The genocidal and problematic part comes in when I, a white girl of european ancestry, raised in a european way, imbued (whether I like it or not, and i don't) with european values and psychology comes along and claims to be a *part of* the culture I've been learning about. I can learn tons and tons about haida spirituality and thats totally cool, in fact probably a good idea. The problem is when I claim to be a haida shaman because I know a bunch about thier methodologies.

We all can be, and should be, informed by the spiritual paths of many other peoples. It's fascinating and beautiful stuff, especially considering the coercive, guilt trippy garbage thats come out of our own cultures for a damn long time... however, its not my place (or the place of any non-indigenous person) to claim to be a *part of* indigenous culture. We can be spiritual comrades with said people, in our own ways, on our own paths that perhaps lie parallel to thiers....

Am I clear? I believe that us whiteys really need to search out and reconnect with our shamanic roots and recognize the sacred nature of the earth... learn to listen to the plants and animals and microorganisms, the wind and the waves and the stars... we need to learn how to communicate on that level and reclaim our essential, instinctual, animistic spiritual heritage.... we simply need to be aware and careful not to coopt someone elses set of mythologies in the process. Not to take culturally specific principles for our own use, because we can never really understand them, and taking them for ourselves has the effect of taking the away, taking thier authenticity away, from the already slaughtered and oppressed peoples they came from.

Explore to your heart's content, explore other cultures for sure, directly learn from the land.... we just need to avoid coopting stuff that isn't our own.


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