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Invisible0toxic0
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Anarchist Society *DELETED*
    #1750449 - 07/26/03 10:07 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by 0toxic0

Reason for deletion: No Reason.


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1750595 - 07/26/03 11:47 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Isn't anarchy the way humans have lived for 3 million years up until like 10,000 - 5000 years ago when the hunter/gatherer life style turned into an agricultural society? Agriculture is the root of all modern things, because once you start growing your own stuff you begin to have a surplus for which you can trade and begin acquiring material possessions you normally wouldn't have, you begin dividing up land and claiming terrirtory, you need to guard your surplus and animals, you develop methods and technology to improve your yield... .and that's basically where we are now in a nutshell but with a lot more technology. I don't think it is possible to go back to those anarachistic ways of the past, but I think a lot of people have a nostalgia for the "living off the land with no authority" lifestyle because our present world societies are so fucked up.

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OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1750613 - 07/26/03 11:53 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

well, here's the thing, humans are ruined by greed, this is why anarchy in our world would never work, people always want more, and if there were no rules, then there would be people just taking and taking, no one would be there to stop them, because they wouldn't be doing anything wrong, there would be no rules to break, and since there would be no rules, there would also be no consequence either.

but maybe you don't mean true anarchy, maybe you mean a society where people agree not to harm each other and where everyone works in harmony in the absence of rules, well this is a utopia, which I believe is impossible for humans to achieve, just due to our very nature, greed, malice, there will always be people who will want to take something from you or harm you, and so unless you're ready to kill everyone who wants to take all of your food or whatever, you better be happy that the rules are in place and (kinda) working




I'm not gonna read over this, so I'm sorry if it makes no sense

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: chodamunky]
    #1750623 - 07/26/03 11:58 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I hate "me too" postings, but I'm doing it anyway: :thumbup: to chodamunky for those insightful words.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750655 - 07/26/03 12:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

anarchy is physically impossible, but it is an ethereal concept that is very real and very dear to me :smile:

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Anonymous

Re: Anarchist Society [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750659 - 07/26/03 12:07 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

ditto.

very good point chodamonkey.

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750699 - 07/26/03 12:35 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I try to make consensual anarchy real wherever I see a chance of it working. In my household (which currently only consists of one person who loves me very much, but it's still a challenge sometimes), among my friends, my workmates, and everyone I associate with. But I think it's going to take a very long time to make this happen on a larger scale. And it can't be forced, because that destroys the entire concept...

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750953 - 07/26/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

but maybe you don't mean true anarchy, maybe you mean a society where people agree not to harm each other and where everyone works in harmony in the absence of rules




People often confuse the word anarchy for anarchism, anarchy is reigning chaos, anarchism is an archetype, an idealistic notion of a perfect society. The philosophical meaning of the word anarchism has changed as people mind have also changed, first modern anarchist idealists like Peter Kropotkin and Bakunin made their message valid even for today, their crude and nude analysis of the capitalistic system and all it destroys is an accurate vision and deserves a well spent reading, others more interventionists made their message be heard by the sound of bombs and terrorism which i find a bad approach of the meaning of anarchism.
The quote at the top, there always seem difficult to people to solve the problem of freedom and rules. Basically an anarchist society can only held people with the same values and that's the answer to the non existence of laws, the draw the line like this "my freedom ends where yours begin".
There is a functional problem, people do not have the same values, so there is something we must do, educate the young to share those values and grow a new generation of freethinkers, people with freedom but with the burden of responsibility.
If we must loose imposed social and cultural values to achieve such mentality, then we must do so no mater how much we'll suffer.
Anarchism, isn't for tomorrow or maybe it isn't a reality possible in 200 years but if we really want a free society or if we have to idealize one, it sure isn't this actual crap we call freedom that is going to change things for the better, neither this global capitalist system which exausts every resource on earth that is going to build a brilliant future. It's people and their minds that have to change first, when we do that we can really say something objective about how to build a better future, till then people must use their imagination as a primary engine to start things going. Defining something like anarchism is very noble approach, maybe some of the ideas can be use when we need to build a more free society.

Quote:

I try to make consensual anarchy real wherever I see a chance of it working. In my household (which currently only consists of one person who loves me very much, but it's still a challenge sometimes), among my friends, my workmates, and everyone I associate with. But I think it's going to take a very long time to make this happen on a larger scale. And it can't be forced, because that destroys the entire concept...




I totally agree with you. Sometimes people need to be motivated to do things, i often use constructive criticism to wake up some people, giving new ideas to people and making them thing by their selves also helps. But before we do that, we must be our biggest critics.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflineGrav
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: MAIA]
    #1751196 - 07/26/03 05:27 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

dependency on luxuries seems to be an obstacle.

imo, i think that's what freedom is to many people... the right to luxury that ended up in their possession for one reason or another. an objective view of things is all just philosophy... those toys are real and they want 'em.

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Anonymous

Re: Anarchist Society [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1751209 - 07/26/03 05:35 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

anarchy is good until it breaks down (30 seconds to 5 minutes tops).

the way i see it... if people didn't initiate force against eachother, we wouldn't need government. they do, so we do need government, but this should be its only concern.

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OfflineGrav
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: ]
    #1751222 - 07/26/03 05:39 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

we need more balanced spread out leadership. there is too much of a communication break down between the average citizen and the decision making in the government. its no good.

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Anonymous

Re: Anarchist Society [Re: ]
    #1751303 - 07/26/03 06:18 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

MAIA, great post!

the way i see it... if people didn't initiate force against eachother, we wouldn't need government. they do, so we do need government, but this should be its only concern.

force can only be initiated when there is power behind it. this power stems from the hierachy of structure in our daily lives, mainly established by government. if this structure did not exist, and there was no way to impose power and force upon another individual, then its impossible for it to happen.

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Anonymous

Re: Anarchist Society [Re: ]
    #1751315 - 07/26/03 06:22 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

it is completely possible to impose force without the backing of an organized hierarchy. it happens any time there is an assault, murder, robbery, burglary, arson, rape, etc, etc, etc.

what do you think should happen when one person murders another person?

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Anonymous

Re: Anarchist Society [Re: ]
    #1751349 - 07/26/03 06:41 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

it is completely possible to impose force without the backing of an organized hierarchy. it happens any time there is an assault, murder, robbery, burglary, arson, rape, etc, etc, etc.

our laws which are established by government, are the moral code for the individual. these moral codes are easily broken because they are not attached to any thinking/reasoning of individuals thought process. an anarchist society will allow an individual to think out his own moral path, and absolute freedom will only progress towards good intentions.

those coercions towards others would not be present in anarchy because the will to do them would not exist, the means would not exist, the personnal benefit would not exist, and the good of human nature would prevent it from happening.

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Anonymous

Re: Anarchist Society [Re: ]
    #1751365 - 07/26/03 06:54 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

first... individuals have moral codes that are completely independent of what the government tells them they can and cannot do.

people do not lose their free will because laws are imposed upon them, and laws against murder and the like to not drive people to murder.

what you seem to be arguing is that imposing laws turns people into amoral zombies who cannot distinguish right and wrong, and who are doomed to do wrong to one another. abolishing government, and thereby law, will get rid of this, and we'll all live happily ever after...

please. that's the biggest load of shit i've heard all day, and i've been up since 6.

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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: ]
    #1751376 - 07/26/03 06:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

All it takes is one sinner to crush that house of cards.


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1751513 - 07/26/03 08:08 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

.... Judas PRIEST, maybe.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1755250 - 07/28/03 06:10 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I've always wondered how an anarchist society would build a highway. Would a group of people just stand up and say let's do it. And what about the people who don't want a highway in their backyard? We will just bend around their house. Hmm, what a nice highway that would be.
This goes for all infrastructure.


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futuretribe.space

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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1755298 - 07/28/03 06:39 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I like the idea of the partnership model discussed in Food of the Gods by McKenna, one inspired by use of the mushroom, dissolving ego boundaries and serving to maintain an equlibrium among members of the community. Unfortunately, I think it's almost inconceivable for the monotheistic/capitalist/dominator system of Western man to be overthrown now; it needed to be nipped in the bud a long time ago. The few rule the many, and the few have the means to maintain the status quo they've established for themselves, and keep at bay a more equitable/free/environmentally sustainable world through the brainwashing mechanism of TV, and the presence of force (cops and soldiers). If only eveyone could be enlightened through the use of mushrooms...

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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1755316 - 07/28/03 06:46 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not saying democracy is really good. In my opinion it's just the lesser evil. I think anarchism is totally naive. Communism sounds good but real communism is also an unattainable goal and so is real democracy.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1755988 - 07/28/03 11:44 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

anarchy is impossible with the population we have right now, well...it is possible...but itwould be complete mayhem and destruction. Why does communism sound good cybrbeast? why should every moment of our lives be under government control?


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1756091 - 07/28/03 12:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

The idea of communism wasn't that we were totally controlled. The main idea was to share wealth equally. But because communism always gets corrupted things turned our like they did in the Sovjet Union.


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InvisibleTomJoad
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1756428 - 07/28/03 02:04 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

an anarchist society could at some point happen, but the people who are trying to bring it about must do so in creative ways, not by way of violence or coercion, which are in my opinion authoritarian and therefore non-anarchist. I personally think that an anarchist society would be largely made up by regional federations, that is groups of people bound together by geographic ties, sharing resources and knowledge to help each other. These federations would form working groups to do what needed to be done for the good of the community (build highways, fight fires, whatever). Fourier and Reclus are some good names to look up for ideas such as these. These federations would be in contact w/ each other and work together in such a way as to ensure equal opportunities for all individuals. Of course, being an anarchist society, it would be free form and people would be able to see what works best for them, and society would evolve as time went by. A lot of old-school anarchists were into the idea of the commune, or anarcho-communalism. These communes function in a similar way to the federations I just described, they grow their own food and trade with other communes, etc. Unfortunately many anarchists are in love with the idea of being anarchists and wearing the symbols but not necessarily living it. Drama and power struggles can pull people apart, even "anarchists". Since we have been imprinted from birth with societal rules, it is hard for many people to grasp the possibility of an anarchist society. Many anarchists promote the reform of the workplace as the main necessity on the road to anarchism, but I disagree, i think that the neighborhoods, where the children are raised, are the most important unit of society, because this is where new people learn the way the world works. If they do not learn that the world is a place where people take advantage of each other and that is the way it works, but rather that the world is a place where people can live in harmony and help each other, we will have more people in the world who will be able to learn to get by w/o fucking others over. The most important step to such a society is to teach by example and live your ideals. One must come to terms with the fact that their goal cannot be achieved by throwing molotov cocktails or breaking windows, in my opinion violent revolutions will always regress back to oppression. What is needed for true change is an ideological revolution, which is much harder to achieve, but would have more lasting benifits. A goal such as an anarchist society must be understood as a distant possibility, and accepted as such. One must understand that they will most likely not see it in their own lifetime.

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Invisibleiglou
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1756474 - 07/28/03 02:17 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

here it is: the anarchist FAQ - probably the best resource on the internet regarding anarchist theory.

Also check out: www.mutualist.net (my personal favorite - I am more aligned with the mutualists in thought/practice).

Mutualists belong to a non-collectivist segment of anarchists. Although we favor democratic control when collective action is required by the nature of production and other cooperative endeavors, we do not favor collectivism as an ideal in itself. We are not opposed to money or exchange. We believe in private property, so long as it is based on personal occupancy and use. We favor a society in which all relationships and transactions are non-coercive, and based on voluntary cooperation, free exchange, or mutual aid. The "market," in the sense of exchanges of labor between producers, is a profoundly humanizing and liberating concept. What we oppose is the conventional understanding of markets, as the idea has been coopted and corrupted by state capitalism.

Our ultimate vision is of a society in which the economy is organized around free market exchange between producers, and production is carried out mainly by self-employed artisans and farmers, small producers' cooperatives, worker-controlled large enterprises, and consumers' cooperatives. To the extent that wage labor still exists (which is likely, if we do not coercively suppress it), the removal of statist privileges will result in the worker's natural wage, as Benjamin Tucker put it, being his full product.


Another favorite is: THE IRON FIST BEHIND THE INVISIBLE HAND - Corporate Capitalism As a State-Guaranteed System of Privilege by Kevin A. Carson.

peace.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: iglou]
    #1757217 - 07/28/03 07:10 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Anarchy

latin- an - "without"
archy "rule" or "method of goverment"

there can be no such thing as an "anarchist society" as "society" implies government or at aleast some kind of consensual system comprised of rules.

An individual who does not personally adhere to a code or government is entirely possible, all though this is highly debateable when it comes to the laws of physics.

oh yeah, and people need to stop confusing communism with socialism. Communism implies extreme government regulation of resources and socialism is more of an idealistically impossible scenario where no one owns anything.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1757390 - 07/28/03 08:08 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
socialism is more of an idealistically impossible scenario where no one owns anything.




Socialism is the government model of choice for Canada and most of Europe... It seems to work quite well, in fact.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1757445 - 07/28/03 08:23 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

no, the canadian and european governments are not socialist, they are primarily capitalist with socialist elements.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1757451 - 07/28/03 08:25 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

oh yeah, and people need to stop confusing communism with socialism.




That's what I've been saying.People tend to use the two words interchangebly 'round these here parts.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: monoamine]
    #1757457 - 07/28/03 08:26 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, because socialism is cool and communism sucks.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1757497 - 07/28/03 08:38 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Sarcasm? Seriously,they are not the same thing.

BTW,I stumbled into the wrong place.I thought this was the political forum.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: monoamine]
    #1757509 - 07/28/03 08:41 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

of course they arent the same thing....thats why i said socialism is cool and communism sucks, because socialism can be balanced with capitalism which results in a healthy, free society, while communism will always result in disaster.

ALWAYS! same goes for pure capitalism, you commie capitalist pigs!


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1757553 - 07/28/03 08:52 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry,I've been spending too much time over in the political forum. Usually after I post something, some "righty" chimes in with a sarcastic comment. I call this the "Luvdemshrooms effect".


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: monoamine]
    #1757560 - 07/28/03 08:54 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

yes, ive suffered through that effect many times, stay vigilant, and ignorance shall evaporate as you burn the torch of intelligence my friend.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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InvisibleTomJoad
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1757641 - 07/28/03 09:21 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Anarchy

latin- an - "without"
archy "rule" or "method of goverment"

there can be no such thing as an "anarchist society" as "society" implies government or at aleast some kind of consensual system comprised of rules.






The "arkhos" root in the case of the "political" form of anarchy or anarchism, as opposed to the "chaos" definition commonly applied, refers not to rules as in social commands or barriers, but rule as in authority. The prefix of an "-archy" word, in the sense of a political or social structure, tells where this authority lies, as in "patriarchy", in which the authority lies in "fathers", or the elder males of the society, for example. In the case of "anarchy" or "anarchism", no group is exercising authority over any other. "An" can be translated to mean "without" or "against", both of which are appropriate in this case. "Rules," if consensual, can exist in an anarchist society, as social guidelines, rather than social commands, and if someone strays from these guidelines, no other person is required to interact with them, which, in a closely related anarchist community would be a grave lesson learned. Anthropologically, this is known as "shunning", a commonly used technique in many tribal cultures. It is not an active punishment or show of authority, but rather a group of individuals enacting their right to choose who to associate with based on what they know of each other. In a community where one depends on one's peers rather than just money, people can learn the ramifications of negative actions and will not get far without cooperating and working together. In conclusion, anarchists are not against rules, but against the concept of rulers. And one can theoretically exist without the other. In a game of chess, for example, there are rules, but they are not enforced with an iron fist. If someone consistently breaks the rules of the game, the other person will not want to play with them, and the rule breaker will be on his own again. I realize this is quite an oversimplification, but I feel like i'm being too wordy. That's all I've got at the moment.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Anarchist Society [Re: TomJoad]
    #1757677 - 07/28/03 09:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

That's all I've got at the moment.




And that's all you needed. VERY good points indeed.
I think that you pretty much summed up the definition of the word anarchy. I think it would work this way, but it would be harder to get started with this many people. Something would have to happen to reduce the population, or a conscious decison to divide into smaller groups. I don't know, though, I really think that this would have to start with a termination of 3/4ths of the people here, and that the last 1/4th would be basically on the same page (maybe that is why some anarchists are so miliant, to wipe everybody off that will undermine their plans).
The problem with that, of course, is how far back we would be set, in terms of technology, etc. 3/4ths of the world gone takes away a lot of the knowledge bank.
Rather, I think we'd all have to get an "upgrade" on our ways of thinking, and all have to agree to coexist. I think, right now, this is when the major change will happen. Things have to get really bad before we can learn from the mistakes that got us this far, to be able to move on from those mistakes. Prepare to have your faith tested...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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