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Offlinedomite
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Re: wake the FUCK up! [Re: Mitchnast]
    #2028973 - 10/21/03 10:59 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"there is no such thing as a person who is not spiritual. "

HA! yea right.

"you become wealthy"

from being apathetic? You want to explain that one? becuse I know plenty of people that are far from spritual, and even farther from wealthy. Now im not gonna make any assumptions here, but hust becuse people who are rich are moraly unscrupulous, it doesnt mean moraly unscrupulous(sp?) people are rich.

"if you dont beleive something, how can you beleive you exist? how can you love? how can you be yourself?"

It depends on what you mean by "belive something". If you mean having faith in something that there is no direct evidence for, then this is completly unrelated, as you can still have beliefs founded in logic (with assumptions that come from what we see/hear) as for the "how can you love" comment, well, shit, I dont know why, it just happens :smile: How can I belive i exsist? Well, I try not to belive anything, but its kinda hard.
(i dont really know what you mean by "be yourself")

well you are yourself, so you DO beleive you exist, and for whatever that reason might be in your mind, it's only one further step of reason before you realize that if what YOU do matters, if YOU matter at all, and if you live once, then die, then the aquisition of possesion is hollow and fleeting, and the greater the gain, the greater the loss, it also stands to reason that there is no redemption in death. so there is no redemption in loss, damage done.

first of all thats one hell of a sentince!  hehe, you are abusing those commas :laugh:. You used the term "matters" for something do matter, it has to matter either in some kind of terms, or to an indiviual. So does what i do matter? To some people, or at least I like to think...

does it matter on a universal sence wheither I drink this glass of orange juce or not? Well, i really dont know, I dont claim to know, or even care to know.




No, most certainly not.

It's not just control.

We do it to ourselves.

It's the way we raise our children.

The way we think about community.

The way we think about Life.

Im not disagreeing at all, I just really have no idea what on earth you are talking about...   

so its not "just" control, wich means that there is something else that is the metaphotical "cage" you keep refering to...


It's the way we raise our children.

The way we think about community.

The way we think about Life.

to me this really just sounds like you
a) feel that repression of our emotions and our "spiritual identity" that we impose on ourself to incite a feeling of order is stifiling and you just generally dont like it
b) are threatened ( i noticed how often you used the idea of "you" existing, your "ego") by the idea of anyone or anything (including your emotions and motivations that dont serve the interests of your ego) in control of any aspect of yourlife your life.
c) Its a spritual belief, in which case i dont care.


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: wake the NICE up! [Re: domite]
    #2029308 - 10/22/03 12:53 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"there is no such thing as a person who is not spiritual. "
and then i continued to clarify, i diddnt mean there is nobody who doesnt feel all invoked by spirits, i mean there is no one who doesnt beleive in something, you for example, beleive in something, if you beleived in nothing, then you are null, you dont beleive you exist, you cease to continue in your own mind, and since your mind is your vessel, it is what you are, without a beleif you exist you dont, but then, you HAVE to beleive you exist in some form, you really have no choice, except nhilism, but that just doesnt work, if it did, you wouldnt exist. its simply a theoretical way of mind that doesnt really exist in practicel. Perhaps maybe my imaginary friend here is a successful nhilist, he doesnt exist and doesnt beleive he exists.
by spiritual i meant, we exist because we beleive we exist, and vice versa, i suppose i really diddnt explain it at all did I? sorry.

Quote:

from being apathetic? You want to explain that one? becuse I know plenty of people that are far from spritual, and even farther from wealthy. Now im not gonna make any assumptions here, but hust becuse people who are rich are moraly unscrupulous, it doesnt mean moraly unscrupulous(sp?) people are rich.





i diddnt say wealth came from apathy, i diddnt even imply it. i wasnt even refering nessisarily to monetary wealth. i was refering to what can be acheived by a makaveillian lifestyle, it is very easy to aquire wealth if you are at least a little smart, and absolutely ruthless. thats all im sayng with that statement

Quote:

first of all thats one hell of a sentince! hehe, you are abusing those commas . You used the term "matters" for something do matter, it has to matter either in some kind of terms, or to an indiviual. So does what i do matter? To some people, or at least I like to think...




the point is you enjoy thinking what you do matters, therefore, it most certainly matters to you, and the ideas of others seem important to you as well, THEREFORE, why not for their sake and your own self image would you not try to conduct yourself respectably (im not saying you don't im just saying, hey, why not?) my argument is that it would be far more respectable to consider and feel some responsibility (although it may be terribly uncomfortable for you) for the injustice and destruction that occurs in the construct of your relitively (in comparison to the majority of the world) comfortable and secure lifestyle.

Quote:

does it matter on a universal sence wheither I drink this glass of orange juce or not? Well, i really dont know, I dont claim to know, or even care to know.




thats too bad, somebody impaled through the ass, sliding down a roughly sharpened wooden pike as it punches through their organs one by one in an afghan market for stealing an orange, would probably think a glass of orange juice was the most important thing in the universe, for better or worse, but then, he doesnt have it nearly as good as you, he doesnt have the luxuries of food, work, comfort, a home, a protective community, alot of time to live, or the will to enjoy it, or even the sanity to decide weather or not a glass of orange juice should or should not be imbibed. his summation of existance got a serious splinter. but you can drink your juice, if i were you i would drink it, but then if you were me, you would probably think about it, even tho its just a stupid glass of juice.

oh, and i never said the cage was a metaphor. a metaphor is an unrelated idea, an allegory, used to describe a generally less tangeble idiom. i think "cage" is a literal enough term.

Quote:

to me this really just sounds like you
a) feel that repression of our emotions and our "spiritual identity" that we impose on ourself to incite a feeling of order is stifiling and you just generally dont like it
b) are threatened ( i noticed how often you used the idea of "you" existing, your "ego") by the idea of anyone or anything (including your emotions and motivations that dont serve the interests of your ego) in control of any aspect of yourlife your life.
c) Its a spritual belief, in which case i dont care.





a, change "order" to control and "generally" to specifically, and "don't" to morrally shouldn't.
b, no, i feel lack of threat, i feel so damn comfortable i should be hanged. did i even say ego? :P hmm, i guess evrybody says it here youed almost take it for granted. i guess i described it.
c, correction, you beleive you dont care.



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Offlinedomite
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Re: wake the NICE up! [Re: Mitchnast]
    #2029482 - 10/22/03 01:43 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)


First of all, forget the sprituality thing, I didnt get what you were saying there. Also, I didnt mean to offend you with anything I said there, Im just saying this becuse I do it by mistake somtimes and you seemed offended in some way.

" ...if you beleived in nothing, then you are null, you dont beleive you exist..."

What I meant when I say that I try not to belive anything is that I try not to bias myself with beliefs, so I can be as open minded as possible.(unfortunatly logic is my only tool to sift though all the ideas) As I said, This is too hard for my consience mind to do, becuse I still "know" a certain amount of things, and my whole world would be shattered if all of the things I thought were conguent turned out not to be.

"you HAVE to beleive you exist in some form, you really have no choice..."

yes, this frusterates me to no end! :crazy:

"i was refering to what can be acheived by a makaveillian lifestyle, it is very easy to aquire wealth if you are at least a little smart, and absolutely ruthless. thats all im sayng with that statement"

eh, I misundersood you again, and its a moot point to the real debate anyway, but i will mention one thing, I have noticed that the individual's determanation plays a bigger part in thier possible achevements that the rest tends to...


my argument is that it would be far more respectable to consider and feel some responsibility (although it may be terribly uncomfortable for you) for the injustice and destruction that occurs in the construct of your relitively (in comparison to the majority of the world) comfortable and secure lifestyle.

this part I agree with, but I still have a little hesatation to do so. Now dont get me wrong, I feel bad for the pain that is enherent in life, and how people's ambition and greed exploits this and create pain and misery for living things. I, however, still see fault in basing morality soley on pity, its just that I havent heard any better suggestions yet.



thats too bad, somebody impaled through the ass, sliding down a roughly sharpened wooden pike as it punches through their organs one by one in an afghan market for stealing an orange, would probably think a glass of orange juice was the most important thing in the universe, for better or worse, but then, he doesnt have it nearly as good as you, he doesnt have the luxuries of food, work, comfort, a home, a protective community, alot of time to live, or the will to enjoy it, or even the sanity to decide weather or not a glass of orange juice should or should not be imbibed. his summation of existance got a serious splinter. but you can drink your juice, if i were you i would drink it, but then if you were me, you would probably think about it, even tho its just a stupid glass of juice.

From what I can tell  you are misunderstanding me and you are trying to show me that people should base morality (meaning a value system) soley on emotions and pity by descrbing a situation wich is meant to make me feel pity. If it was the second one, you dont need to bother, I do base my morality on emotions and pity, I just have a creeping suspition that there is an idea out there that I would like better...
im not sure though. All I meant by saying

"does it matter on a universal sence wheither I drink this glass of orange juce or not? Well, i really dont know, I dont claim to know, or even care to know. "

was to say that the idea of something having signifigance is only applicable to ideas we have.


"a metaphor is an unrelated idea, an allegory, used to describe a generally less tangeble idiom. i think "cage" is a literal enough term."

Metaphor in the way I said it means: "A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another"


the word "cage" origanally designates a series of metal bars intwined to keep something within certain borders

you used the term "cage"(or someone did) to describe the way "we" live, the way our society is run, the way it traps us. This is a metaphor.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to me this really just sounds like you
a) feel that repression of our emotions and our "spiritual identity" that we impose on ourself to incite a feeling of order is stifiling and you just generally dont like it
b) are threatened ( i noticed how often you used the idea of "you" existing, your "ego") by the idea of anyone or anything (including your emotions and motivations that dont serve the interests of your ego) in control of any aspect of yourlife your life.
c) Its a spritual belief, in which case i dont care.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
haha, forgive the mulitiple choice format, I took a three hour long test today. :P


a, change "order" to control and "generally" to specifically, and "don't" to morrally shouldn't.

i think i said that wong, let me try again:
We repress ourselves and our lifestyles to give ourselves the feeling of order. You dont like this, you feel that it is limiting or stifiling, or something along those lines (this is not menat to sound at all condesending.)

b, no, i feel lack of threat, i feel so damn comfortable i should be hanged. did i even say ego? :P hmm, i guess evrybody says it here youed almost take it for granted. i guess i described it.

I see what you are saying, this related back to the morals of pity idea kind of...  arrg, I dont know, it seems like it could go alot deeper than that.

c, correction, you beleive you dont care.

damn you, you got me there!!! :tongue: 


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: wake the NICE up! [Re: domite]
    #2029759 - 10/22/03 03:04 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

i dont want you to feel pity, would YOU want to be pitied?
people suffer enough, they dont need to be dehumanized by pity.
we pity things we fear becomming, fear makes our worlds smaller through hatred. i could explain that till im blue, but im tired.
i was trying to make you feel empathy, it has a clear distinction from pity, empathy is how we survive even oblivion.
even the man, you never new, now you know a little, maybe ive tricked you into knowing something. but I never meant for you to pity.

oh, and a cage doesnt need to have metal entwined bars to be a literal "cage" and even if it can only be called a cage figuratively, it is still not a metaphor. it was a deliberate name for what it is, an immureing construct both physical and mental, an intertwining of bars that are very visable and often even metel.
i do not use the term cage to describe something simmilar to a cage.
its a cage, its a trap, as i said originally. there are different cages, different prisons, different traps. this one you cannot see, because it is its nature that it can only really hold you while you cannot see it. Chances are, if you saw it, you would try to look away, try to forget, make it all seem like it wasn't. The first thing that hits you, is guilt, not that you could have done anything about it unfortuneately.

but im not feeling trapped by some mental block, the cage im refering to it literal. its there, you cant see it, but you surely could if you were allowed to. thats an explaination I won't give you, and I hope you never have to find out what it really means. oure probably better off, spiritual or not, not knowing. and don't start saying im talking some sorta matrix stuff, no, i found this all on my own.


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Offlinef8L
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Re: wake the NICE up! [Re: Mitchnast]
    #2029817 - 10/22/03 03:20 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Great post. This is an issue that is always in my mind, trying to escape the cage of life. But over the years, I have come to the conclusion that instead of fighting, or resigning to a life of ignorance, I could shape the path and my life to the best of my own abilities--and I'm happy with that.

Keeping an open-mind, understanding different cultures and philosophies of thought. Engaging myself every day, traveling--filling my life with meaning. We can all add importance to our lives, not through indulging in our own self-interests, but by allowing ourselves to take charge of what we are truly capable of; as an individual stuck in an unconcious, blind society.

I can move forward, I can progress-- I can fulfil my dreams and destiny-- challenging those objects around me, challenging myself to think differently. We structure our own conciousness, our own 'traps'- the only way to 'escape' is to change your mindset, change your attitudes-- simply live in the moment, every day. That is my true purpose.

Optimism, happiness-- FAITH.

There is no trap.


Edited by f8L (10/22/03 03:22 AM)


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Re: wake the NICE up! [Re: f8L]
    #2030773 - 10/22/03 07:18 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

eh, whatever, I have come to understand what you mean as much as I can from you explaining it to me...

I really have no idea what you are talking about in that second part, but whatever, i might find out one day, huh? :P


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Re: wake the NICE up! [Re: domite]
    #2030777 - 10/22/03 07:18 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

domite said:
eh, whatever, I have come to understand what you mean as much as I can from you explaining it to me...

I'm really not so sure what you are talking about in that second part, but whatever, i might find out one day, huh? :P




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OfflinePhoshaman
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Re: wake the FUCK up! [Re: sirreal]
    #2031046 - 10/22/03 08:25 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I stopped at page 3. Live life for yourselves, and to make others not suffer. It's not being selfish, we are here to enjoy!


--------------------


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OfflinePhoshaman
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Re: wake the FUCK up! [Re: Phoshaman]
    #2031080 - 10/22/03 08:37 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

GIVE US ZE MONEY LEBOWSKI!

WE BELIEVE IN NOTHING!

YZAH WE BELIEVE IN NOTHING, NOW GIVE US ZE MONEY LEBOWSKI!


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: wake the FUCK up! [Re: Phoshaman]
    #2031743 - 10/22/03 04:55 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Heheh be careful, i was the displayed honesty without knowing that that was the greatest sin according to these guys. The truth is that, well, i care about people suffering on this planet but not enough to waste the life that i was blessed with at this moment. And im speaking from a perspective that actually matters because my childhood was everything but easy. I didnt have the oportunity to go to college like im sure many of you did. And i didnt have a choice of wether i wanted to go to jail or school. BUt i prospered and like i said if the oportunity for me to enjoy life is given to me ima take it. Maybe these guys just feel guilty because they had it good all there lives, but i dont. God, Karma or whoever the hell is out there has blessed me for my past pains. So dont condem me bacause im not out in Africa looking for a cure for AIDS.


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Offlineska8ball
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Re: wake the FUCK up! [Re: trendal]
    #2031924 - 10/22/03 06:47 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
i recommend you stop watching/reading the news.

Funny. My doctor told me the same thing  :smirk:
Problems with anxiety...

You're right. There's nowhere to go right now except back to nature. I can't accept that. I don't believe that technological advancement is a bad thing.

So I don't want to do that. My other options are to live here passively, or try and do soemthing about it.

I tried listening to my doc, and giving up on the world. Yeah, it was easier. Yes, I had a lot less stress. But it didn't feel right. Something pulls me back. I don't know why, but I have to help.

There's something I'm waiting for. I'm not sure when it will happen. Until then I'm content to work on the people directly around me. The changes I've encouraged already amaze me  :smile:

I know it's easy to fall in to order. Blissful ignorance. But I would appreciate it if everyone who can see the cage at least tries to get the message out. I'm not asking for anything big. Don't make a spectacle of yourself. Don't draw attention. Don't be a weirdo  :wink:

But you can have an effect on those around you. Take your time. We have time.

All my close friends have woken up. It's taken me years in some. But the more friends I had with me, the more help is around.

Spread the news  :heart: 




I FEEL THE SAME SOME SORT OF CHANGE WILL OCCUR IN OUR TIME THERE ARE ENOUGH OF US 


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