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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1948018 - 09/24/03 03:03 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Hmm..

The thought that you're actually a nice guy must be really comforting to you. I disagree on this because nice guys, even if if they're conviced they are right, tend to post a different kind of reply to the things said than what you just did.

I have had many encounters with disagreeable people. I have seen a lot of opinions on just about anything that I find questionable, especially on the internet where just about anything goes.

Your original post I reacted on was one thing, but your subsequent response and PM have quite frankly amazed me.
But I guess you think that's silly too.

This is not a matter of lacking social skills on your behalf, your response strikes me as structurally unsound.


Please steer clear of any postings and threads I write and I will do likewise. We are truely incompatible.







:smile:

maybe he just needs a hug?


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: chunder]
    #1948524 - 09/24/03 05:55 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

-sigh- okay at this point, I feel compelled to repeat a post I've repeated already quite a few times, regarding the problem of obesity in our society...first of all, If it was really just THAT frickin easy to start eating super-healthy and lose weight and train everyday and take off all that weight, then why arent there lesser fat people? cuz it is NOT easy DUH (and thats an understatement)!...You have to have a very strong, healthy, optimistic, HAPPY, confident MIND..to go do these things succesfully...somebody else already covered this point better than I did;
Quote:

chunder said:
I agree, mind and body are one and the same, they affect each other constantly. I really don't think its as easy to have a healthy mind if one lacks a suitably healthy body. Peace.



Exactly..
And what about those people who were born fat, because of poor genes, etc? I know some skinny ass people who can eat alll the want, whatever they want, and dont gain weight.....and vice versa, some fat people can eat just nothing but fuckin lettuce and cucumbers and they're still fat, because they're genetically obese, they were BORN fat. Obesity is one of the most psychologically isolating disabilities , so of course most obese people don't have tons of frickin confidence that they would need to go out in public and start working out at gyms, and bullshit. So it's natural that alot of them will get that "If you cant beat em, join em" mentality, and simply accept who they are, and be proud of it.

But, I do agree that the society in USA doesnt help much with the nearly-epidemic problem of obesity, with all the fast food junk restaurants being all the rage, and fatty unhealthy lunches in schools and not to mention that most average families arent super health nut freaks to begin with, so they tend to raise their children with unhealthy eating habits, and perpetuates the cycle, over and over and over.......and not to mention that close-minded stereotyping people bash them mindlessly and make it all even worse...
just my two cents

btw, I'm not fat, I'm just defending the weak here


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #1950343 - 09/25/03 05:11 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
cuz it is NOT easy DUH (and thats an understatement)!...You have to have a very strong, healthy, optimistic, HAPPY, confident MIND..to go do these things succesfully...somebody else already covered this point better than I did




That's exactly what this whole post was originally about. Of course losing weight isn't easy, and the benefits of losing weights are plainly obvious, but yet people still don't lose weight.

Which points to some weakness, as you pointed out. Blaming society's pressure or the fact that other people don't need to watch their weight doesn't solve the problem. Blaming the fact that it is hard to lose weight isn't the problem. The problem is not building up the strength to lose weight, and that strength carries over to all other aspects of your life.

I sort of believe that being overweight is the physical manifestation of the mental weakness, as well. Body and mind, mind and body..
Peace.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1950708 - 09/25/03 11:30 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Hmm, Fireworksgod, lets get on-topic again..

""people still don't lose weight.
Which points to some weakness, as you pointed out...""

The word weakness is a morally charged word. The general idea seems to be that if people just got off their ass and did something about it they would not have a given problem. The impression that rubs off on others is that if you have a given problem for a long time you are too lazy to do something about it. People who are judged to be "too lazy" are deemed inferior in most societies.

Therefor your statement bears the charge that obese people are weak-willed and that they themselves are to blame for it. That it is a matter of inferior moral fiber.

There is such a thing as an equilibrium between mind and body there is undeniable. When a Cambodian kid trips a POMZ landmine and has both his legs blown off, the brain centers controlling motion and awareness of the legs may need some time to adjust (phantom limbs, the sensation of feeling the limbs you have in fact lost.) but in the long run these braincenters will shrivel to make way for brain centers that actually are in use. So basically the poor kid not only loses his legs, but in fact after some time the "legs" themselves grow out of his mind/brain.
In this case a change in the body causes a change in the mind.

Now the kid he was playing with at the time has experienced that his buddy ran from the path to catch the ball he threw, suddenly there was this big thunderstrike and the next thing he knew he got smacked and splattered by meat, bone and blood and sees the top half of his buddy lying on the ground screaming and bleeding. He right then and there decides he will never leave his hut and because of the solemness of the vow he never does. His legs atrophy away by lack of exercise and he becomes physically incapable of walking.
In this case a change in the mind leads to a change in the body.

A third kid hears a thud and screaming and the whole village pours out to help the wounded one. Not him: he was born without legs and the braincenters to operate them and so he is incapable to act on it.
In this case genetics have rendered his mind and body impotent.

[please donate to demining charities: these people are TRUE heroes; there are over 6 million mines left in Cambodia alone]

Well this was a pretty rough scene but it represents the three major points of view: Incapability of mind, incapability of body and genetic predisposition. In all three cases there is an equilibrium between body and mind. The one adjusts to the other or both adjust to a pre-existing factor.

Now likening this to severe obesity sounds pretty harsh to most. But is the difference really that large? All three (obesity, lack of limbs or limb atrophy) are clearly visible distortions of a healthy body template. All three lead to disability in the physical sense. All three conditions are predicaments that most who have them rather not endure.

But a lot of Cambodian kids watch their steps and won't trip the POMZ anyway.. So is the first kid to blame for being so careless? Is his predicament his fault, morally?

A lot of kids see their friends blown up over there and yet most do not crawl into a corner and let their legs wither.. So is the second kid to blame for not getting over it and moving on?

Is the kid that was born without legs morally weak for not coming out right?

It is recognised by most that severe obesity has all three factors rolled into one: There are bodily causes (like thyroid/insulin anomalities), there is such a thing as psychological eating (eating for other than nutrititive reasons) and there is a genetic factor involved. It seems reasonably straightforward to think that you should just cut down on foods and you get slim, right?

And yet for some reason over 95% of people who were over 50lbs overweight (severe obesity of the kind that clusters in families) in any time of their life (unrelated to pregnancy) are unable to retain a "normal" (has the subjective word "norm" in it) weight for the major part of their life thereafter.

It quite rare for a truely obese person to "recover". So rare in fact, that it can safely be assumed that being slender is alien to their equilibrium.

You could argue that third world countries have no such problems. And indeed they don't. Most of them are reasonably slender while some die of starvation. Here in the west we have got an abundance of food. Here too most are reasonably slender, while some pop their belts. Put third-worlders in a rich food enviroments and a lot of them will get weight problems. Put first-worlders into a poor food enviroment and a lot of them will die of starvation. (healthy foods or not)

But interestlingly it is the rich-food-obese that is in best shape in the poor food enviroment while the rich-food-slenders die, and it's the poor-food-slenders that pop their belts in the rich food enviroments while the poor-food-starvers are in best shape in the rich food enviroment. So oddly enough tending towards overweight or underweight are both desirable in one place but very bad in the other.

So what do we have?
1...Obesity has physical, mental and genetic factors.
2...95% of family-clustered obese people basically stay obese no matter how hard they try.
3...Tending overweight/underweight is healthy in the opposite food enviroments but almost inevitably spells disaster in the other.

Is there something not right with obese people? True. No denying that. Is there something not right with named Cambodian kids? Ofcourse!

But I think it is wrong to bring morality into it. There is something not right and this manifests itself visually through being either way to light, way to heavy or people with some limbs missing. Who would dare to ridicule and the Cambodian kids and turn them into social outcasts?
Well, way too many Cambodians do. Who would dare to ridicule extremely overweight people and turn them into pariahs? Well, the vast majority of western society.

There is something wrong here. If you truely, TRUELY want to live without limbs or bearing 100 excess pounds (imagine) you should be able to in my opinion. But let us by all means keep morality out of it if that means the crosses people bear are made heavier by it.
Severe obesity, severe underweight problems and the loss of limbs are absolute tragedies. There is a distinct deviation in body, mind and brain present.

But let's stop playing the blame game, the pain game, and start building that dam together side by side, for we will all drown if we fight amongst ourselves and don't stand united, for in this 21th century there are many floods that threaten all of humanity.


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Anonymous

Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1951172 - 09/25/03 03:22 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Damn, some fatties are pretty involved in this stuff

naafa.org, check out the forums - it's hilarious


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: ]
    #1951274 - 09/25/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I wasn't bringing morality into any of this. I was only pointing out who is to blame for people being overweight, that it isn't society, the producers and sellers of food, or anyone else, just the person themselves, and that some sort of weakness is the cause of the obesity.

You have pointed, out, though, that certain bad genetics result in obesity that basically can't be fought agansit. The weakness, in this case, resides in the genetics themselves. I don't know enough about genectics of DNA to say whether or not this weakness can be strengthend within one person (selective breeding and such can produce better genes in future people).

Quote:


But a lot of Cambodian kids watch their steps and won't trip the POMZ anyway.. So is the first kid to blame for being so careless? Is his predicament his fault, morally?

A lot of kids see their friends blown up over there and yet most do not crawl into a corner and let their legs wither.. So is the second kid to blame for not getting over it and moving on?




If the kid knew about the possibility of the landmines and was careless, then he is to blame for his carelessness. I am not saying that his being careless is right or wrong, it is up to him, and only he is to blame for his legs being blown off. If there was no way of knowing about the landmines, there was nothing he could do, and his outcome was not of his doing directly. Life handed him a bad card, it is up to him to make the best of it.

The second kid is to blame for his depression and security issues. While it is his choice and so forth, it is only of his doing. Only we decide how we react to different situations.
Peace.


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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1951582 - 09/25/03 05:40 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1951890 - 09/25/03 07:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I see. But the nit I have to pick nontheless is that I'd like to place iut in another light.

I agree that if you meet an obstacle (mind/body/genetic or combi) you should strive to either get it out of your way or at least try to reduce the harm if clearing it alltogether. I myself would replace "is to blame" for "should assume responsibility for" and if you mean it like this we both agree.

Well, almost all people with major obesity have desperately tried all sorts of diets or, on another level, "miracle drug" like the killer called FenPhen and many other amphetamine nightmares. A lot try to get in the best shape possible. My uncle played high league basketball (amateur) at a full 300 lbs. He had the speed and allthough he ofcourse could not slam-dunk he scored alot. But now his knees have gone to shite. Because of the vigorous exercise.

Did he lose weight molesting his body by over-excersizing? Not one gram. He just lost like 5 lbs of water and he drank that on in no time.

Here's a man that gave everything he could to get in shape. He nearly blew out his heart on amphetamines. He let himself get mocked over and over again by the old weight watchers method of negative reinforcement. Show him a bean and he's like: "Kidneybean, one. weighs approximately o.6 grams: 0.1 calories, eat no more than twenty" he knows all the calories of everything. He slaved and slaved to get in shape and let's face it: he was in shape. When you outrun 150 lbs teammates weighing 300 lbs you are in fucking good shape!
And yet all he got out of it was his full 300lbs and two worn down knees. And to the man in the street he still was the lazy fat pig and it was universally assumed by the people that didn't know him well that he was lazy and lacked all sorts of willpower.

Perhaps you are not meaning this judgemental but as pointed out by others very obese people have got it pretty harsh. Society is quite hostile when you're in the general direction of 250lbs.
This creates low self-esteem and a reasonable degree of unhappiness in most that is detrimental to sustained efforts like keeping off the pounds.

Society is not the cause, but is an obstacle in achieving permanent weight loss because if you have heroically lost 100 pounds and still have some 20 too much on you you're still treated like shit for being a "lardass" with no willpower. And remember that if you really go for it and lose a whole bunch of weight too fast you get loose skin hanging off that really looks a lot less appealing then being rotund.

If you need 2.000 calories to get by and only eat 1.200 like on a lot of diets you in fact eat as much as they do in the third world. And just like in the third world your body adjusts by shedding muscle and other tissues so that you'll get fat if you eat 1.300 kcal. So its 800 for you?

O..K now you can only malnourish yourself or balloon out on less than half the kcal your body was made to digest and needs for vitamin and mineral content. 95% of obese people can not keep off the pounds on a low calorie (= starvation) diet because it is nothing short of destruction of the body.

Getting off the starvation bus isn't lack of willpower: it is a sign of healthy self-regulatory mechanisms. The low-carb diets are strange, but they are the only dietary measures that are both healthier then obesity and the starvation "alternative".

The reason I'm going at length here is because true obesity is a horror beyond most peoples comprehension. I like to shed some light on the matter for clarity as to its personal, social and physical impact.

The cause of obesity lies within the person. But there are a lot of things inside of a body that are not to be influenced by "willpower" except by the most advanced of yogis. For "true" obesity the problem likely ceases to exist or lessens majorly if the responsible genes were blocked or altered.

"Breeding out" sounds like the nazi philosophy of eugenetics, meaning only an elite may procreate. This is far less acceptable then developing a drug to REVERSIBLY block the genes involved. It will be a pill that'll give one a fighting chance against obesity and I expect it to hit the prescribing book before the year 2025. This is as much "undermining willpower" as insulin shots are to a diabetic.

It only blocks the genetic predisposition to severe obesity and nothing more, which is quite different from amphetamine diet pills or other "magic bullets". And moreover: it keeps the genes inside of the gene pool so should famine strike one just has to quit the pill and remain a healthy weight.


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1952196 - 09/25/03 09:00 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You know alot of fat people dont actually know how fat they are. When i looked at myself from my perspective i was always just chubby, i never knew why they called me fat. I felt like i could do anything any thin kid could and never knew why they laughed when i tried. I dont know but when i looked in mirrors i looked chubby and was terrably misled untill i saw myself on a video camera when i was like 17. I almost cried ,lol. I saw the way i stood up, moved, sat was nothing like i thought it was. Diffrent parts of my back, stomach and chest moved at diffrent times. My self esteem plumeted to hell at that time. Untill i realizeD that my low-self esteem was making me stay this way. Because i wasnt trying. I have lost 50 lbs in the last 7 months and realized that life is what you make it and that nothing comes easy. When i lay on bed frowning about how much my muscles hurt and how much craving i got for a chocolate cake. I think of what my life will be like if i was able to see myself in a video and see the person i thought i was. How i can buy clothes for cheaper. how i can actually have name brand clothes instead of some pants that have the word "BIG DADDY" in the back. Motivation and Moderation is the key. I also started to take control my weed smokin'. I smoke only if im going to do something physical or something to keep me away from the munchies. Water and juices have become my munchies. ANd all i can say is if fat people saw how much they have control over their life America would be a better place. Because everyone would see how good life is.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Spokesman]
    #1953308 - 09/26/03 04:14 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The Wiccan_Seeker rule of rotundness: "When you can hide your hands under your belly you are obese, if not you are overweight"

First of all: congratulations on burning off those 50 lbs! 200.000 kcal are a lot to lose, a big  :thumbup: for you!

It's true that there's a lot of self-deception going on. It's not just obesity: a lot of people live as the King and Queen of DeNile on all sorts of stuff. The first step is indeed to become aware that there is a problem and the extent of it, and as I said before after that you should assume responsibility and give it your best shot, exactly like you did. But do not underestimate the difficultness of keeping it off if you have hereditary (family clustered) obesity.

I myself have had my 25,50,75 and even one 100 lbs weight loss successes, as has the big side of my family. We do not eat a lot of sweets and such, and it isn't fast food either. It's basically regular servings of wholesome foods. Our thin relatives eat just about the same amounts and all of us are on the move. But just like the rest of the 95+% we cannot keep it off beyond months or some years of a desirable weight.

You are right: life IS great! And willpower does go a long way. But remember that each person is unique. There are light smokers that get cancer and afterwards smoke through their tracheostoma because they are unable to quit and there are heavy smokers that quit with relative ease.

I agree wholeheartedly that willpower is majorly important and a beautiful thing. But willpower isn't measurable with scales, as two problems of seemingly the same scope may require vastly different levels of (sustained) willpower. And on top of that a lot of people cannot even bear equal burdens.

As said: I think you should not try to lay blame anywhere (moralistically speaking) but that you have to take charge and give it your best shot as life is all about conquering mountains and wandering the beautiful valleys that lie between. But desperately trying to achieve something that is unrealistic may undermine your long-term self esteem, happiness and even health.

Go for the gold, give it your best shot (and I do mean your best) but should you fail you should try to sustain the best result that can be had.

A famous mental coach in Holland says than when you haven't earned a million you lack moral fibre and that you yourself are to blame (morally) because of lack off willpower.
The majority of dutch people fantasize about airdropping him in the Sahel desert and positive-think up his food and water and make a million there amidst the poorest of the poor. Some things are not obtainable by anybody but you should by all means try to work at it as hard as you can.

Again: a big thumbs up for your weightloss success!
If you can sustain it you're in the clear and can take personal pride in having conquered a major mountain. You have my respect!




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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1953490 - 09/26/03 06:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Perhaps you are not meaning this judgemental but as pointed out by others very obese people have got it pretty harsh. Society is quite hostile when you're in the general direction of 250lbs.
This creates low self-esteem and a reasonable degree of unhappiness in most that is detrimental to sustained efforts like keeping off the pounds.




I agree, society is harsh, and it is terrible. And it does create low self-esteem and unhappiness in most, but it isn't the actual harshness that is creating it: it is themselves.

Genetics are a fucking bitch. And basically the only situation that will solve this is like a pill or something that you mentioned, some sort of genetic treatment.
Peace.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1956701 - 09/27/03 08:07 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

""I agree, society is harsh, and it is terrible. And it does create low self-esteem and unhappiness in most, but it isn't the actual harshness that is creating it: it is themselves.""


Hey, it seems we're passing beyond the communication barrier here!
I agree with you 100% that the low self-esteem and unhappiness usually stem off of the percieved harshness, but that it's the person himself that creates the response.

When you are treated like shit you tend towards negativity and when you're around uplifting people you tend towards the positive. But I agree with you that your response is mostly dependent on your own internal processes.

It is known (I like extreme examples and collect all sorts of facts and factoids trying to understand the world) that some warvictims fell in love and wedded eachother in nazi deathcamps and that some people who won tons of money in lotteries etc. got in such a state of confusion that they committed suicide within hours of learning they had become millionaires.

Your response to something generally is associated with an external event but it comes from within.
I am not convinced people are responsible for their actions, but I do agree that assuming responsibility for your life is one of the most healthy stances I know of.



.



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OfflineGasoline15
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1956910 - 09/27/03 12:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Spokesman I'm dissapointed,I expected atleast one joke about your metabolism to make me laught >: ).

"I just wanna pinch it and tell it to wake the fuck up!"

Okay,I just wanna say this little thing,if you see someone who is fat,chance are,that person isn't happy about it,so please,don't give that person a hard time.

Remember,we're all humans,and we all hurt,we all have sensitive spots we don't want to someone to go at,it's not cool.

Thank ya.

Also,fat people,we aren't a race of people,lets quit talking about us like we have our own country/culture from skinny people and they are oppressing us like an overbearing(no pun intended) majority,thats kind of dumb.


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Gasoline15]
    #1957340 - 09/27/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yes there are people that are born heavy but 99.99 percent is born normal. If your calorie expenditure is more then your intake you WILL loose weight. Its as simple as that.

I hate when someone says "i cant loose weight". Because everyone in the world, even the clinically obese people can loose weight.
Take any fat person in the world and starve him in a POW camp for a few years and he will be as thin as a model.

If you dont eat you dont gain weight.







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