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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3172547 - 09/23/04 11:50 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

We can learn much from tribal societies, just not all of their wisdom is applicable. Western societies have wisdom that is applicable nowhere else as well, and much wisdom has yet to be discovered.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3176890 - 09/24/04 11:29 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Mixamatosis, id like you to pay close attention to swami's last posts
Touche

Moonshoe: Like hue points out there are a million people with the same plan as yours, and thousands of south americans who've realized the market for their abilities. I have a friend who lived down there for a year in an Ecuadorian village in the jungle, and my impression talking with him about it is that these people's practices are mostly inaccessible to us as people from another culture, and once you leave the jungle you've learned all these skills in, what then? You can't make ayahuasca with cedar trees.

I find it interesting that what you're interested in is the cultural context of these plants, that you think that's the gem, because I see it as the complete opposite. What can we do with their plants working within our paradigms?

I'm reading Wade Davis' One River right now. I can't believe I never read it earlier. I think you'


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3176891 - 09/24/04 11:29 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Mixamatosis, id like you to pay close attention to swami's last posts
Touche

Moonshoe: Like hue points out there are a million people with the same plan as yours, and thousands of south americans who've realized the market for their abilities. I have a friend who lived down there for a year in an Ecuadorian village in the jungle, and my impression talking with him about it is that these people's practices are mostly inaccessible to us as people from another culture, and once you leave the jungle you've learned all these skills in, what then? You can't make ayahuasca with cedar trees.

I find it interesting that what you're interested in is the cultural context of these plants, that you think that's the gem, because I see it as the complete opposite. What can we do with their plants working within our paradigms?

I'm reading Wade Davis' One River right now. I can't believe I never read it earlier. I think you'd probably find it pretty inspiring.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3177796 - 09/25/04 03:18 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Humans always have been and always will be simply humans. I'm an anti-civilization anarchist but I'm no utopian and not one to blindly glorify any culture or style of living. However, that being said, I recognize that *in general* a hunter gatherer lifestyle is the only truly sustainable lifestyle that has every existed. Perhaps light agrarianism following permaculture principles is another option. What we have right now certainly isn't. Civilization is a death march, built from the pathology of some very hurt creatures. Our way of life is totally fucked up and that is undeniable, just as it is undeniable to say that a primitive tribal lifestyle is a lot more conducive to living in harmony with the earth, giving as much as you take and paying attention to the cycles of earth. Primitive folk don't have the illusions and distractions we do to prevent them from listening to the land and really harmonizing thier communities and themselves with the cycles of thier bioregions.

I am not idolizing primitive culture. I also must point out that there were and are many many different primitive cultures out there and that every single one is unique. Many are violent, violence is not inherently evil, and its validity completely depends upon context. No community will ever exist without conflict and violence, however we certainly can learn far better methods to deal with these issues as they arise than we currently have.

I have to say that I really appreciate what Huehuecoyotl and unenlightenedone have to say. It's refreshing to not be the only one to defend primitive cultures from the ignorance of civilized and anthropocentric wordviews.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3178477 - 09/25/04 11:29 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

oh obviously, and that is another part of why i think visiting these tribes is so important, i could learn some valuable survival skills for post apocolypse living.

And yeah mixamatosis i must backtrack and say i lied its really the psychadelic experience i want, but the shamans there know how to prepare and administer the dose, how to direct the trip for maximum meaning and awe, how to guide you back down and administer an antidote if nescessary, and then after to help explain the meaning of the visions for you. In addition doing something like wasca in its native rainforest would be incredible as opposed to just doing it in my living room after getting it off the internet.

Thats what i meant by valuing the cultural context.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3178678 - 09/25/04 01:20 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

The TSAR BOMBA

was a 50-Mt hydrogen bomb equivalent to 100 billion pounds of TNT and actually was detonated by the USSR.
The sonic boom circled the earth three times in the upper atmosphere, at 60 miles distance it would burn the jeans off of your ass and due to unusual weather conditions it threw people to the ground at 90 miles distance.
This baby, for the 1/1.000.000 of a second it lasted, kicked out with one percent of solar output which is a friggin lot :shocked:

Clean as it was (97% fusion 3% fission) many scientists kept sucking by insisting that every Megaton of an atmospheric test would cause 50.000 deaths due to fallout cancers in the years to come the USA and USSR just kept on lighting these fuckers like there was no tomorrow.

The Hydrogen bomb you see being dropped on the above pic was, is, and will go on causing cancers.
Approximately 2.500.000 people will die because of Tsar Bomba cancers, and many more for all its Megaton brothers and their little Kiloton babies.
And the USA, and the USSR, knew this, but they had to show their gonads nontheless and dispatch millions to an early grave to remain in office.

Name one sane tribal chieftain who would send two and a half million completely random people of all tribes to the grave just to show off their gonads.
And these chieftains are elected by 50 people, not 50 million.
If you have a CRT screen: 2.5 Megadeath is a grave on every pixel of five of your screens. THAT is what they did.


In the Africa of old you had a myriad of villages, no big cities, just many many small tribes. In most of Africa most of the time tribal war was a social event where you stood at 100 paces and hurled spears and insults at each other. It was a nice standoff and when night fell they went home and the shaman got his hands dirty plugging up wounds with chewed-up medicinal leaves, chanting incantations for the equally important spiritual healing.
Sure there were godawful bloody atrocities too, but most tribes were far more relaxed even in wartime.

Throughout history mass murder has always been associated with mass culture. If you look at the Rwandan situation with the Hutu's and the Tutsi's its plain and simple: The tribes are just too fucking big (mass culture) and critical mass was achieved in the (modern) cities and flashed over to the countryside where shit got really nasty.

If somebody decides to suck in a stable peaceful tribal situation you give some shoves and punches and thats it. They don't run to a car packed with Glocks and Uzis to exact revenge, at most you'll wake up the other morning to find out your goat is missing  :wink:

Please explain an African pygmy tribesman what your tribe means when they speak of "putting someone on the chair" and how a gang of tribesmen stand outside cheering and holding up signs that say Fry! Burn in Hell!
Hmm.. he'll smile just as friendly but you'll also notice he'll gradually put some distance between you two..

On the other hand, take this example:
Tribesmen walk around casually wielding spears with razorsharp blades or fire-hardened points at the least. And thats normal. You ask directions and with a friendly gesture they're pointed out for you with a 15-inch dagger.
Casual.

Imagine walking through your city where guys walk by resting a kalashnikov machine gun over their shoulder, finger on trigger, or getting pointed the way to the Mc Donalds by a gesture of a Glock or that pretty thing D33P shows off  :smile:
Would you feel as comfortable?

I think not. Losing touch with nature means that you throw firecrackers with two metric tons of nuclear fuel, you completely freak at the sight of an armed man and the thing is you are probably right in doing so.

Western society doesnt just up the scale of atrocities but it also has an unusually high atrocity-count.

If you are closer to nature you are more likely to see the downsides of hostility, thus more peaceful, thus more enlightened.
Unfortunately atrocities are human traits, but our urbanized mass cultures have a way of breeding them like eggs in a hatchery.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3181552 - 09/26/04 02:55 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

"i think visiting these tribes is so important, i could learn some valuable survival skills for post apocolypse living."

Get real. I can make a bow and a string and arrows with stone tools that I made myself. I can even spin the thread for the string with a wooden drop-spindle using plant fibers (thistle is great...hemp is better). I am a dead shot with a wooden bow. I can identify edible plants (and mushrooms), track animals through the woods, set hand made traps like snares and deadfalls, and even build primitive shelters on the fly. I learned all of this in the woods of my home state of Kentucky. I took the time because shamanism requires a deep spiritual connection with nature. In the rainforest you would not learn anything that you cannot teach yourself...but no skilled person there would teach some spoiled Canadian (or American) anyway.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Asante]
    #3181554 - 09/26/04 02:56 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Good point.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Asante]
    #3182566 - 09/26/04 03:13 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Name one sane tribal chieftain who would send two and a half million completely random people of all tribes to the grave just to show off their gonads.
Show me one who's capable of it.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3182586 - 09/26/04 03:18 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

:blah:


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3182980 - 09/26/04 05:22 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:


Name one sane tribal chieftain who would send two and a half million completely random people of all tribes to the grave just to show off their gonads.
MIXOMATOSIS SAID:
Show me one who's capable of it.





How about systematically burning down the rainforest where all the tribes, including their own, live in one giant blaze?
We have the scientific knowledge Planet Mars is 3 million kilometers away, totally barren and hostile to life, and yet we set the entire world ablaze and dance on the ashes of the defenseless.

Chieftains are perfectly capable to destroy the "entire world" but they just dont do it, nor will their warriors comply in an apocalypse.

Watch a genuine apocalypse right here:



This is what happened when a religious group wants to revert to becoming a Tribe again.
The true Tribes of Guyana were at a total loss to understand WTF happened there.

We lost something when we left Mother Nature behind, my brethren, and its futile to think we've regained it when we're surronded by greens for a weekend.

You've got the corporate guy that basically thinks: "screw Nature"
...and yet it provided him with all he ever was or will be.

Then you got the hippy that exclaims: "Mother Nature is beauuutiful!"
...Get back to me on that when you snapped your leg and theres sand all over the bone that's sticking out.

We can only think up a simplified relationship with Nature... or we can actually invest time and effort into actually building one.

But the chieftain would not destroy the entire world, his warriors would refuse those orders, and yet for most its a matter-of-factly non-issue after we turn 20 or so.
Whom of you actually cried physical tears when you saw city-block sized mushroomclouds boiling over downtown Baghdad on CNN?
I think more of us yawned then cried.
Who "does charities" on a daily basis?

When we left that jungle we left part of our humanity behind and that down-to-earth unity of mind, body and spirit.
Ofcourse many tribesmen are assholes, but mass society, particularly the western-city type, is simply off the scale.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Asante]
    #3183339 - 09/26/04 07:23 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Chieftains are perfectly capable to destroy the "entire world"
Seems like stone-headed arrows aren't too good at leveling mountains and flattening cities. Care to explain what you mean?

We lost something
"something" eh? Of course that's hard to disagree with, of course we lost "something," but I'm afraid your method to produce an unassailable argument has resulted in complete meaninglesness. My question is: What are you trying to say?

But the chieftain would not destroy the entire world
No leader of an industrialized western nation would either, not in the sense that he'd push the "destroy everything" button.

Ofcourse many tribesmen are assholes, but mass society, particularly the western-city type, is simply off the scale.
Certainly lots of tribesmen are assholes, and what you call "mass society" is simply lots of tribesmen with powerful technology packed into tight quarters. What are you trying to say?


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3183461 - 09/26/04 08:15 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

***Chieftains are perfectly capable to destroy the "entire world"
Seems like stone-headed arrows aren't too good at leveling mountains and flattening cities. Care to explain what you mean?***

the " " around "entire world" refer to burning the rainforest which to their knowledge constitutes the "entire world"



***but I'm afraid your method to produce an unassailable argument has resulted in complete meaninglesness.***

Have no fear I have become silly: it is just you who has lost my line of reasoning :smirk:



***We lost something
"something" eh? Of course that's hard to disagree with, of course we lost "something," (...)My question is: What are you trying to say?***

We lost the connection to the down-to-earth truth that if third world kids live wretched lives to stitch your tennis shoes together that this means third world kids live wretched lives to stitch your tennis shoes together.
We know about the atrocities yet we do dick about them. Many tribes have no word for "should": you either do something or you don't.
We pass unknown people on the street as casually as tribesmen would pass trees in the forest. In the forest, each unknown person equals an elaborate meeting and greeting that starts with assessing whether you are not an ape or other animal and can end with you two blowing DMT snuff in eachothers nose. Most kids think passing a dutchie is a filthy thing nowadays, we lost that one since the 1960s.


***But the chieftain would not destroy the entire world
No leader of an industrialized western nation would either, not in the sense that he'd push the "destroy everything" button.***
All our chieftains know full well that our "modern consumption society" is destroying the world entirely. Attempts are made to patch the world up to only fall apart after our (politicians) departure. We as a society follow The Way of the Yen.

The Way of the Yen dictates that first world arms factories create landmines for the third world that specifically take feet off above the ankle instead of mercyfully kill in a $ 0.10 larger blast. The Way of the Yen dictates that our first world arms merchants are selling machineguns that are made to 2/3 of full size especially for third world child soldiers that haven't graduated to a fullsize Khalash yet. Wouldn't you say we kinda lost some harmony here?



***what you call "mass society" is simply lots of tribesmen with powerful technology packed into tight quarters. What are you trying to say? ***
This is the crying truth. We no longer are Tribesmen. We are the human animal who's social structure of group animal has slacked by the anonymity of mass society.

We are NOT Tribesmen. The Tribe was stolen from us. We are anonymous humans in an amorphous supertribe that most certainly lacks Tribal Unity. Do you feel One People with all you meet in your city or country? Nope. We are a bunch of captains on a ship full of steering wheels. Because we are anonymous in living groups over 50 or so we think we can get away with anything.
Like giving young children kidsized weapons to make the heads of their elders explode. Like dropping a bomb in peacetime that kills 2.5 million people just to show off gonads.

The big picture has become so huge we all lost it.
What we lost is harmony.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Asante]
    #3183739 - 09/26/04 10:01 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

We pass unknown people on the street as casually as tribesmen would pass trees in the forest. In the forest, each unknown person equals an elaborate meeting and greeting that starts with assessing whether you are not an ape or other animal and can end with you two blowing DMT snuff in eachothers nose





Right.
If we tried that our entire lives would be devoted to simply meeting people.
That's preposterous.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3184177 - 09/26/04 11:50 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

"Get real. I can make a bow and a string and arrows with stone tools that I made myself. I can even spin the thread for the string with a wooden drop-spindle using plant fibers (thistle is great...hemp is better). I am a dead shot with a wooden bow. I can identify edible plants (and mushrooms), track animals through the woods, set hand made traps like snares and deadfalls, and even build primitive shelters on the fly. I learned all of this in the woods of my home state of Kentucky. "

Wow huehue! you are so skilled and woodsy! You can do all kinds of nifty things that i cant. The question remains, though, of what the hell that has to do with me or my desire to learn the wisdom of a vanishing people that represent the vast majority of human history on earth?

"In the rainforest you would not learn anything that you cannot teach yourself..."

i disagree. I would never be able to 'teach myself' how to carve flint arrowheads, make or shoot a bow, or hunt and track an animal. If i found someone who DID know, i could learn. Simple as that


"but no skilled person there would teach some spoiled Canadian (or American) anyway."

yes they would, gladly, for a modest fee.

Im confused by you huehue. On the one hand you go one about how you pursue shamanic knowledge and how it gives you this deep benefit and how its a way of life for you.

On the other hand you throw me all this flak for wanting to go meet the shamans and learn that way of life. Its all "their wisdom is not applicable to other cultures" "theyll never teach a spoiled rich kid" " you can learn it all yourself" etc

and personally i think thats all bullshit. If you want to know about something, you seek out the person who knows the most about that subject. In this case the people who know most about shamanic knowledge would be, surprise surprise, the shamans. I think their knowledge (regarding states of exctasy , moving beyond regular waking conciousness and achieving a deep connection with nature) is applicable universally, it is inherent to the human condition.

I also think that their is no reason why with some effort, persistance, respect and willingness to pay reasonably for services, i couldnt find a shamanic practicioner willing to fill me in. Hundreds of other westerners have.

Nor do i quite understand the source of all your seeming hostility/negativity unless its A. a resentment that someone is going to have first hand experience with the shamanic world that you lack or B. some form of spiritual elitism

I cant think of any other reasons why someone who claims to be a practicing shaman would be so seemingly opposed to a sincere effort to begin my own shamanic initiation and preserve some of the shamanic wisdom and bring it back to the west .

Fill me in dude.

And i think every meeting of strangers should end with an exchange of DMT.

And wiccanseeker, that post really didnt make any sense to me either.

Basically i got:

Native tribes will destroy their worlds, Big society is totally evil, and jonestown was bad, and native tribes were more in tune with the earth.

All of that may be true, but somehow the whole thing was quite confusing.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184202 - 09/26/04 11:56 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

And wiccanseeker, that post really didnt make any sense to me either.

Basically i got:

Native tribes will destroy their worlds, Big society is totally evil, and jonestown was bad, and native tribes were more in tune with the earth.

All of that may be true, but somehow the whole thing was quite confusing.





It made perfect sense to me.(shrugs) Sometimes I feel people try way too hard to understand something that is clear and that is why they do not understand.Human beings are notorious for complicating simple things.Do or do not.Instead we have try,should,could,etc.This or that.INstead of simple decisions we have long drawn out debates over whether or not to choose item 1 or item 2 even though we know we need item 2 and not item 1.lol.It is interesting.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184222 - 09/26/04 11:59 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

"Wow huehue! you are so skilled and woodsy!"

Your damn right I am! I have spent many years learning these skills. Just read "The Traditional Bowyer's Bible" Volumes I II and III. Then read Tom Brown's book on tracking and follow that up with over a decade of hunting and practice and you will have these skills too. Survival skills can be learned by anyone with a little work. Going 1000 miles to learn any of this is a big waste of time. All you need is a forest...you got trees in Canada don't you?


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3184314 - 09/27/04 12:18 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

I agree with this very much.Survival courses are usually available locally and if not there are TONS of books about survival covering any climates you may need to learn about that are relevant to your locality.

Besides travelling far away to learn survival skills isnt optimal since local flora/fungi etc can differ county to county or city to city even and state to state is the greatest variance.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3184338 - 09/27/04 12:26 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

well yeah that i agree with, but if you had been reading along with me so to speak, youd know that learning survival skills is far from my main reason for visiting shamanic cultures, its just a nice little side benefit. I wont reiterate my real reasons for wanting to go their as i have already done so ad nauseum.

And to clarify i DID understand wiccanspeakers post in as far as each individual peace of it made sense, just not so much how it all fit together. For example, what did the jonestown massacre have to do with tribal societies? to me the statement "this is what happens when people try to go back to tribal living" was ridiculous. That is what happens when a deranged individual attracts a following of deranged individuals and kills them with poisionous koolaid.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184358 - 09/27/04 12:30 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

what did the jonestown massacre have to do with tribal societies?




He was saying that we have lost our connection to nature and just because we are out among trees,woods,etc this doesnt mean we are back in touch with nature and our tribal/primitive self or have suddenly reconnected to nature.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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