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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: Positronius]
    #2722815 - 05/24/04 09:45 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
---riiiiight. I dont really qualify a bunch of hippies getting stoned as a "revoultion", but thats just me. And the fact that it changed nothing supports my belief. Cultural movement? yes. Revolution....no.

A real revolution requires hard work, logical thought, a deep understanding of politics and economics. Which is something that the average acid-head isnt (and wasnt) up to.





I wouldn't say that NOTHING has changed. It's hard to ascribe social change directly to social movements, but certainly the acceptance of equal rights and many changes in civil rights could have come partly from the 60's movements. It was apart of the 60's counter-culture to use drugs in that fashion, as a form of seeing around the head games some of the oppressive leaders used.....

But I do agree that change has to come from hard work and effort. There were a lot of people and still are who protest and actively work to change things. The thing is, psychedelics don't just magically create positive change, that has to come from within. I don't think there is every going to be a magical revolution that completely makes everything ok, but rather a slow process of generations reevaluating themselves and shaping the world in a (hopefully) positive way. What role drugs play in that is questionable, but I do think it would be much more positive if they were utilized in a responsible and positive way rather than being vilified and seen as a rebellious thing.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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OfflineRedo
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: Twirling]
    #2725958 - 05/25/04 09:54 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Psychedelics do not instill an automatic anti-government image inside of you after you take them, rather, a deeper understanding of who you are. It is not opening your eyes to the world, but opening your eyes to yourself. And you cannot bank on everybody having that experience every time they use it, rather it becomes less and less a discovery, as to more of a happy-delusional state of mind as you are more used to the psychedelic drugs effects. This is a good reason for them being illegal, causing the person who seeks self understanding to look for these drugs as needed. The other drugs are a whole different story, and for the most part, I agree that these addictive drugs are harmful.

However, we were not designed for the kind of life that we live today. We were designed to be self sufficient in smaller groups, not as a society in whole. The belief in your goverment as a whole stems from your belief in your small group being successful enough to survive. While today it is almost pointless to believe this, because its hard to imagine how crucial one is to the rest of society, the drive is still there. And these addictive drugs can usually take us away to an inhibited belief that we are where we are sopposed to be. Alcohol has just been around for such a very long time, and is generally much safer then the other drugs, so it will never go away.


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: Redo]
    #2726370 - 05/25/04 12:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

However, we were not designed for the kind of life that we live today


---what evidence do you have to support this claim? people living in modern, industrialized countries live longer than anyone else ever before, it seems like we are perfectly designed for this life because we are thriving within it.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Registered: 04/29/04
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: Positronius]
    #2726646 - 05/25/04 03:26 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

^
As a society as a whole? Yes and no. We have great progress in many areas. But it's at a cost.

Human stress, especially mentally, I would think, is much higher in post industrial society. This has many other effects stemming from it. Higher suicide rates, higher youth pregnancies, .. like the thread started-- developing an obsession of escapism and convienence, i think we're moving further and further away from our natural selves. More torwards merely keeping our minds busy, entertained.. we've become ants just running around hoping to have our minds filled.

We're accomplishing alot in material and technological progress. Even in medicine we're accomplishing. But are we really improving the quality of our lives.. spiritually? psychologically?

It seems to me we're merely making it more conveinient, more distracting, and when we die, there will be alot left behind to prove so.

It also seems to be we're building a society completely based off the ego. An ego that cannot be sated. When we tire of attempting to, we try to ignore it and pretend it isn't there. Allow the television to think for us, etc. And most of our attempts to sate the ego, are normally misplaced to begin with.. we use the acquisition of materialistic things to fill voids of other psychological needs that are higher up the Maslow chart. And our society encourages this. Bigger, faster, more, which is not always best for us as individuals, a society, or the place in which we live.

I'm just rambling here and it's not a full out arguement.. so don't take it as such.


Edited by DigitalDuality (05/25/04 03:29 PM)


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: Redo]
    #2726667 - 05/25/04 03:41 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
And you cannot bank on everybody having that experience every time they use it, rather it becomes less and less a discovery, as to more of a happy-delusional state of mind as you are more used to the psychedelic drugs effects. This is a good reason for them being illegal, causing the person who seeks self understanding to look for these drugs as needed.




That can happen, but more often than not the desire to use psychedelics goes down as a person ages. It's also non-reenforcing and doesn't cause a compulsion to use them the way drugs like alcohol, cocaine, amphetmines and opiates do. Many people who have taken them in a theraputic clinical setting have found no desire to continue use.

Quote:

Redo said:
...Alcohol has just been around for such a very long time, and is generally much safer then the other drugs, so it will never go away.




Alcohol is a very dangerous drug. It has a high potential for abuse and addiction, as well as a low toxcitiy level. But it has enough social acceptance that people learn how to use it in a safer manner. Most young people who are first starting out with alcohol drink too much and learn the hard way what a hangover is, so they often readjust how much and how often they drink.


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: Twirling]
    #2727226 - 05/25/04 07:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Not all societies abuse alcohol in that way, though. In France kids as young as 8 years old will drink maybe a glass of wine with their dinner, and when you're a kid, one glass is enough to get some idea of its effects in terms of intoxication. Yet they don't have the same trouble with alcohol addiction that many cultures with more strictly prohibitive laws have. I think the way alcohol is made taboo while you're young is largely responsible for the binge-drinking high-school alcohol abuse thing. By treating people as if you don't trust them to manage their consumption responsibly, you create an expectation for the irresponsible behavior amongst the very individuals you're trying to protect. The really sad thing is when with some people it becomes a necessity in order to fuction socially, say at bars or whatever. As for people who go in for the drinking-alone type abuse, I think their lives would be a lot nicer if pot weren't quite so obscenely expensive. If the addict wanted an escapist-type experience they could smoke a bunch of hash and take a 'vacation' without ending up with alcohol poisoning or perminant liver damage, although that's not too bad. Your liver is basically your only organ that can grow more of itself except your brain with the neural connections thing. You do end up carrying a bunch of nasty compounds in dead liver tissue, though, I guess. Whereas with pot you just get the lung and throat cancer and the brain cell die-off thingie like with alcohol, only to a lesser degree. Or so I was taught, anyway.

I guess when there's no impulse for escape from reality (or at least for perminant escape) substances don't get abused excessively. But the desire to escape reality is complicated and can't always be avoided. I guess the trick is to stick to substances that are harder to abuse excessively, like mushrooms. In my humble opinion I'd say that television is a more dangerous drug than alcohol by allowing for the replacement of your own thought and experience with someone else's ideas and conception of reality or entertainment or whatever, depending a fair bit on the show in question. And like with everything else, it's possible to gain and learn from television if you're thinking critically about what you watch and particularly if you discuss it with others. The Nature of Things with David Suzuki is designed in such a way as to precipitate thought and discussion. I don't think this is what most people do with television, though, using it instead as a means to turn their brains off for a few hours (your frontal lobe is more stimulated during sleep than during all those hours sent in front of the tube, particularly if you're watching crap like Swan or World's Most Extreme Movies of People Getting Hurt but Ending Up Alright, Queue the Anticdote from the Host-Person, Laugh-Track and Fade to 8 Minutes of Car Commerials) and a lot of tv programming lends itself better to the 'entertain me so that I don't have to do my own creative thinking' approach. Not making judgements about anyone in particular, mind you, it just seems to be a popular lifestyle-obsession/addiction. Happily, lots of people I know have gotten rid of their tvs, and are reaping the benifits. Not that I don't enjoy watching downloaded Samurai Jack or Harvey Birdman or SeaLab 2021 episodes, I just seldom watch more than 45 minutes of tvshows a day. Though movies are fun from time to time.

So I guess moderation and a thoughtful and active manner of consuming drugs (and media?) with low- or non-addictive properties would be a good way for a society to avoid addiction and it's related problems.


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: Panoramix]
    #2727734 - 05/25/04 10:00 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The evidence I have that we are not living what we are designed for is simple, we are designed like a dog in many respects, we are pack creatures who are designed to fit in with a small group of people that perform many functions to live. The more functions needed to function as a whole, the more people there are needed. Today, there are so many functions, and so many people, it is all meaningless to believe that we have the same impact that we would have once had. The big society with endless skills and jobs is a very recent change in our history of being. If this is not enough, we have to work and push harder then ever to perform our function, causing much stress that has never been put upon us before.

The more convienient everything is, the easier it is to build upon those conviences, and upon the new technologies. Making the basic human innovation almost completly gone, leaving it to leading people in leading fields to create some new technology that is more and more complex with each passing day. This causes most people to feel as if there is nothing they can do to most anything, which is why we may drone in front of the TV instead of being able to use our minds to something hands-on productive, which is exactly what we were designed to do. Use our hands with our heads to come up with solutions.

Psychedelics you cannot use as you get older for a simple fact, most people cannot escape for 4, 8, even 12 hrs as more and more responsibilities build. It is just unfeesable to use a whole day, and the current stresses may be shown in your use of the psychedelic. If this is not the case, you can waste ALL your time using the psychedelic, where ones delusions can start to overtake reality.

Alcohol is much safer then most 'hard' drugs for most people. Like anything, yes, responsibility is needed to not use it uncontrollably. But most people with alot of stress, and that can handle the alcohol daily will get addicted. Same with the other drugs, but your life isnt ruined as fast or as bad with alcohol. And like I said, or somebody said, its been around for thousands of years and is here to stay.

If your shown by your elders that drinking is ok on certain events, or in moderation as your growing, it does help. Its not just in France kids get wine at the age of 8, it happens all over on the states side, its just considered illegal. No law enforcment agent would care if your parent is giving you a glass of wine for a special dinner occasion. That is the right way to do it, but parents side with the goverments laws too much.

Hash or cannabis is almost a suppliment to most people. So it would give them a high-intoxicated feel instead of just the intoxication. Pot is not going to be legalized anytime soon here, so I have no idea if it really makes any difference to the drug addicts. Im sure it will cut down on future addicts though, without the drug connections needed to buy it.


Edited by Redo (05/25/04 10:10 PM)


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: Redo]
    #2727890 - 05/25/04 10:43 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I think stress is closer to the root of the problem than a desire to escape reality in that stress is probably most of the cause of wanting to escape reality.  The cause of the stress is probably mostly due to lifestyle, be it due to the burden of labour your responsibilities place on you or the intenable nature of your lifestyle, as it is with relatively extreme poverty.  If something's making it so that you can't enjoy your sobriety, you're much more likely to try escaping to an alternate reality as best you can. 

So the system that places stresses on people is responsible for the drug abuse.  And those who perpetuate an exploitive system are in that sense even more to blame.  And who keeps those who exploit people safe better than the police!  So it isn't the DRUGS that cause drug addiction, it's the GODDAMN COPS!!!  And their incomes and futures are secure in that locking people up doesn't solve anything and the pressures causing the problem still exist, if somehwat more subtly than in previous eras, creating no shortage of people to try and lock up.  :smirk: :smirk: :smirk:

The craziest part is that I think I might be being serious...


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: Panoramix]
    #2727942 - 05/25/04 10:59 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, stress is the reason, but I was going into more depth of why we stress. This is where my belief on us doing what we are not designed to handle to this degree. We are designed not to handle as much and have it mean so little as we do today. This is all happening to us working harder and harder in this world today. The thought of delving into this world is stressful enough, let alone living it.

And enforcing and creating these laws seem unheartful, showing that a few can do without as an example to the masses who have to do with.


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Offlinedeff
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Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: Redo]
    #2727975 - 05/25/04 11:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I think we were "designed" to do what we have done, what we are doing now, and what our species will do in the future. If we weren't, then why are we? This would imply we are going against our design in order to achieve this global society, which would mean we were designed to be able to go against our design to do this. Which would imply we are doing what we were designed to do. Heh.

Anyways yeah, I view everything as one giant transforming source of energy, and that we are not designed to do anything except exist as a part of this undying energy.


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Drug Use in Modern Society [Re: deff]
    #2729697 - 05/26/04 05:28 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

We have no choice, our drive is to become better, but we are designed to only handle a certain amount.


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