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Society's Pressure on Fat People
    #1845199 -

Have you ever heard an obese person claim that it is all right for them to be fat, that society puts too much pressure on someone to not be obese? That they justify being obese by the fact that society pressures them to not be overweight, and that they have a right to?

I am not saying that they don't have a right to. But why would one want to? It seems that justifying themselves like that is just covering up the fact that there is a mental weakness that prevents them from losing weight.. which just could be the reason that they are obese in the first place...

Anyways, what do you all think? Myself, I would prefer to be in the healthiest state possible, and I guess not staying fit would have to be the result of some weakness.. I mean, shouldn't we consider it our responsibility to stay in shape? Claiming that society demanding us to be perfectly fit as the problem seems to point to that person is trying to cover up a weakness, because maybe there is a reason being healthy and fit is so stressed..

How many of us here would consider us in good or great shape? I myself am not fit or cut by any means, but I am not really fat. I am going to start some sort of exercise routine so I can work off the fat that is here and build the muscles up, because the mind is only one half of the equation..
Peace.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1845222 -

I agree, mind and body are one and the same, they affect each other constantly. I really don't think its as easy to have a healthy mind if one lacks a suitably healthy body. Peace.


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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: chunder]
    #1845233 -

chunder said:
I agree, mind and body are one and the same, they affect each other constantly. I really don't think its as easy to have a healthy mind if one lacks a suitably healthy body. Peace.


This is exactly my point. Having an unfit body can be seen as weakness, right? And doesn't having an unfit body reflect a weakness in the mind? Not having the mental strength to eat healthy and to exercise regularily will result in a reflection of that in the body, right?

Balance seems to be the name of the game..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1845548 -

Good post fireworks, I would have to agree with what you're suggesting. Society's 'pressure' on overweight people is not the reason why people are obese, but some obese people would like to convince everyone that that is the reason..

It is true that some people are too hard on the overweight. It starts from early childhood, when other children torment the fat kids, which pushes them into a state of feeling guilty, and can often cause them to pig out even more for comfort reasons.

But there really is no excuse at all to desire to remain obese. When fat people say that they are happy being overweight and that they don't care about changing, it's likely that part of them has given up. They are too lazy and too addicted to junk food to try a healthier approach.

Of course I have to cover myself from possible flames here... I really do not judge people by their weight. I know plenty of overweight people who are great... in fact, it seems that overweight people can have a greater tendency to be very loving. I guess their love for food can rub off on people :smile:

I personally am very UNDERWEIGHT! Whatever I do, I can't seem to put on any pounds. I'm 6'0 and usually between 140Lbs and 145. I eat and eat and eat, but it just doesn't go anywhere! I think I have a very fast metabolism, and it's bloody exhausting trying to eat enough to keep my weight up. So many North Americans would probably kill to have my problem :tongue:


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Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Amnesiac]
    #1845701 -

Im a fat guy, doesnt mean im not healthy in my head, i may not be able to run a few miles efficiently, if i really really wanted to lose weight i could, i just have no motivation, im not going to pass it off as an excuse because of society pressures and other bs like that, some people have certain metabolisms and some people let themselves go, either way you may or may not have to direct certain attention to physical health.and yes food, i love it :smile:


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You've succumb to an empty fate, your false prophets are gone, your life,meaningless, your heart and head broken, and we're all laughing.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: dibbles]
    #1845717 -

I myself don't really care how other people choose to live, it doesn't bother me because I have nothing to do with it. People shouldn't be making fun or anything of fat people, either.

I am just saying that I prefer to keep healhty as possible (I usually procrastinate and sometimes lack motivation, but these are all problems I can fix). I mean, this is the body I am going to spend the rest of my life this time around in, I might as well make what I can out of it.

I mean, it is healthier for you, easier to perform certain tasks (running, etc), and etc. when you are as fit. The women seem to like it, too. hehe
Peace.



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: dibbles]
    #1845735 -

True, its all about what you're honestly comfortable with. If you're overweight, and it really bothers you, makes you angsty all the time about others' judging you etc. then thats a problem to be solved, just like any other. The same could go for people who are malnourished, or any other physical "abnormality" that could manifest as a form of guilt or shame in the mind.

Of course, if the physical condition doesn't affect your happiness, then there wouldn't be any problem. I know plenty of obese people that just don't give a fuck and are happy, content individuals.

I think that if your body is unhealthy, though, that there must be some affect on the brain. Mind and body are the same, because your brain, is part of your body. The same rules apply to it as any other organ. If you don't get enough, or the right kind of, nutrition, or if you saturate your body with toxins and fats, then there will most definitely be repurcussions in the mind. Your mind is a machine that needs specific fuels to function properly. Peace.


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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1845798 -

This is an interesting discussion, "FG." hehe looks like you've been doing some major thinking recently :smile: I like I like!

I am DEFINITELY biased on this subject, as I've been a stickman my whole life, but here's my opinion nonetheless.

Obesity, I think in most cases, is triggered by affluenza (n. a painful, contagious, socially transimitted condition of overload, overconsumption, debt, anxiety, and waste resulting from the dogged persuit of "more"). Affluenza shows its symptoms in all of us - anybody who owns a computer most-likely suffers from this "disorder." It appears in each of us in different ways; some of us buy food, more food, and more food. Some of us buy cars...

From what I understand, only about 4% of obese people are actually suffering from some type of gland problem or something that makes it impossible for them not to be this way.

I think it can certainly be unhealthy to be overweight, but hey if a "fat" person is OK with that, then that's OK with ME! After all, being too skinny and not eating ENOUGH can be a major problem as well - just ask me :smile:


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (08/24/03 03:56 PM)

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Strumpling]
    #1845819 -

Strumpling said:
This is an interesting discussion, "FG." hehe looks like you've been doing some major thinking recently :smile: I like I like!



Hehe, just have more time to express my thoughts in some form to be shared with others of a like mind... Alas, I'm also getting older and wiser.. hehe
Peace. 


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1846875 -

yeah, I had to write a paper for a moral issues class last semester on "is the fast food industry immoral?" and in doing research I found this crazy website about advocacy for fat people. the lady who wrote the site was rabid in her attacks against thin people or "society" that was so evil. it was weird. also, she didn't want to sue fast food corporations, it seemed like she just wanted people to accept obesity as healthy.

I think that the ancient greeks had it right, the philosophers ought to be working out half the time and thinking half the time. I'm now a pretty fit guy, I run LD, do yoga, kendo, lift weights, bike, play rec sports, etc and I eat right, but I've gone through periods when I've weighed like 125-130 lbs (I'm a bit over 6 feet tall) and it sucked. I'd trip really hard though.. anyway it's good to be healthy.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Malachi]
    #1847141 -

I would like to point out some people do have a harder time losing weight and some people have an even harder time gaining it. Mr.X may excercise twice as much as Mr.Y (running not weight training =?) and Mr.X may still be trying to lose those last 40 pounds while mr Y is finishing his doughnut and trying to find pants small enough to fit him.

My point is it's not necessarily always about a "weekness" but some people are genetically predisposed (sp?/is this even the right word?) to be fat people. Not that that is an excuse but it does require a lot of work for some and none for others.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Tasty_Smurf_House]
    #1847159 -

Dan doesn't get pissed off..

Dan does when people critisize people who are overweight... For some, it is their personal choice... But, for others, it wasn't.


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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: GanjaManDan]
    #1847501 -

It is not ones personal choice to be fat... welll it might be to some... in America. Anyway, its like this man, growing up fat is the worst thing god could do to you, atleast it feels like it untill you see some retarded girl with no legs and arms. But its so hard especially like me when your the only one in the family its a nightmare, for some reason they feel free to express their opinions on what a loser you are cuz you cant lose weight, or a fat joke is i would say an every 3-4 minute thing, i swer to god, lol. Anyway i dunno about the rest of the fat population but as a kid i always hid these harsh feelings inside and everytime somone said something i ignored it, then a little while down the line i would make a joke about it, and then as i got older i would say i felt comftorble with my body. When that was the biggest lie i ever. So when you see a fat person say that they are comftorble with their bodies, nomatter how real it sounds 90% chance is their lying. I know i did, I dont anymore though. I just blame it on my damn metabolism. THATS DAMN THING! I SWEAR IF I COULD JUST GRAB IT AND PUNCH IT REPEATEDLY ON ITS FACE AND SAY "WAKE UP, DAMN IT WAKE UP!!!"...........Oh, sorry


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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Spokesman]
    #1849016 -

'Perfect' in its self is debatable. One of the problems IMO w/ western society is that we think something is right or better and force other people to do it to. Look at what happened to native americans, they were perfectly happy but because we had a 'better' way of life we forced them to have it too when it is clear to us now that it was wrong. Its a mater of choice, we're posting on the shroomery in air conditioning and monks are doing w/e monks do lol (sorry dunno much about monks) but is one better than the other? We sure think we are but they think they are to. Blah blah bla. Anyways enough about that.

Some people think bigger is better. Have you seen how many artists and crap draw fat people because they think they look much better? And I do think society puts too much pressure on weight. The fat/skinny line has been moving for years, what was skinny for a model before is now fat...and lets not forget about genetics, I do believe you are preprogrammed to look a certain way. We can change alot of things that we are preprogrammed for but it aint easy. Alot of people have trouble losing weight and others give up because of soceitys pressure.

Lucky readers, I dont have time to finish the post heh, so The End.


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Ecstacy Rising - Peter Jennings ABC Special

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: DailyPot]
    #1850634 -

DailyPot said:
'Perfect' in its self is debatable. One of the problems IMO w/ western society is that we think something is right or better and force other people to do it to. Look at what happened to native americans, they were perfectly happy but because we had a 'better' way of life we forced them to have it too when it is clear to us now that it was wrong. Its a mater of choice, we're posting on the shroomery in air conditioning and monks are doing w/e monks do lol (sorry dunno much about monks) but is one better than the other? We sure think we are but they think they are to. Blah blah bla. Anyways enough about that.

Some people think bigger is better. Have you seen how many artists and crap draw fat people because they think they look much better? And I do think society puts too much pressure on weight. The fat/skinny line has been moving for years, what was skinny for a model before is now fat...and lets not forget about genetics, I do believe you are preprogrammed to look a certain way. We can change alot of things that we are preprogrammed for but it aint easy. Alot of people have trouble losing weight and others give up because of soceitys pressure.

Lucky readers, I dont have time to finish the post heh, so The End.


The issue here isn't about society putting pressure on people who are fat. The issue is fat people citing that pressure as unjust and continuing to be fat..

Giving up trying to lose weight because of society's pressure gives evidence towards some kind of mental weakness. It has basically been proven that being overweight (the definition of what is overweight depends on your body structure, what is overweight for some is not for others..) is unhealthy. There are serious health risks that emerge from being overweight.

Obviously, it isn't easy to lose weight, but isn't so easy to gain it? If it was easy to lose weight, no one would be overweight in the first place. Just because it isn't easy or that society puts pressure on those who are overweight doesn't mean that it is worth losing weight...

Obviously, it is one's individual choice whether or not they wish to be overweight. There are certain genetic traits (suspossedly) that lean towards being overweight, but maybe someone in that lineage needs to do the work, start losing weight, so that the future offspring don't have to live with the same deficency? Genetics are not set in stone...

It should be noted that very few Native Americans were overweight before we interupted and disrupted their living patterns..
Peace.



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1851830 -

I know genetics are not set in stone but it does make a difference.

Society IMO is not putting pressure so that the fat people will lose weight. Most people just think of it as another form of uglyness. Societys pressure in unjust since thats the only reason people do it. We do put too much pressure on look.

Genetics aren't everything but a good amount of people would rather be fat because there body is 'geneticly fat' than to have to work out alot and eat healthy crap. For some they would really have to work hard to look good. If they wanna be fat its there right. Just like if people wanna do drugs they should. If its your buisness its just that, your buisness. Other people shouldn't be forming opinions.

There is of course a debate over what fat in unhealthy terms is...I'm talking more about the people that just have a belly. Multipule bellies are different heh but its still there choice.

*edit*
btw, you think if you have a fat gene and you work out you can burn off the gene?


--------------------
Ecstacy Rising - Peter Jennings ABC Special

Edited by DailyPot (08/26/03 03:14 PM)

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: DailyPot]
    #1852809 -

I read somewhere hot peppers can raise your metabolism enough to make a difference. But they also make you hot all the time.... or so I hear..

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1854001 -

Well my theory was that id rather enjoy life instead of spend my time sober, eating food i hate, and exercising. But then i realized that being fat i wasnt enjoying life at all. So im currently in the process of getting in shape. But im the type that exersises alot, eats a little piece of candy and gains a pound LOSY MATABLOISM I'LL KILL YOU DAMN IT WORK!!!!!!

Its hard but its got to be done while young.


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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Spokesman]
    #1854012 -

But im the type that exersises alot, eats a little piece of candy and gains a pound...

Sorry, but no matter the genetics, the laws of physics are never violated. Weight gained will never even remotely approach weight intake. Fruits and vegetables are mostly fiber, water and ash which goes mostly indigested; the remainder is turned into heat and any in excess of that goes into storage as fat or muscle.

Of course, candy (and other sucrose products) is a highly concentrated fuel source and should be avoided by those looking to lean out.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: DailyPot]
    #1854021 -

DailyPot said:
I know genetics are not set in stone but it does make a difference.

Society IMO is not putting pressure so that the fat people will lose weight. Most people just think of it as another form of uglyness. Societys pressure in unjust since thats the only reason people do it. We do put too much pressure on look.

Genetics aren't everything but a good amount of people would rather be fat because there body is 'geneticly fat' than to have to work out alot and eat healthy crap. For some they would really have to work hard to look good. If they wanna be fat its there right. Just like if people wanna do drugs they should. If its your buisness its just that, your buisness. Other people shouldn't be forming opinions.

There is of course a debate over what fat in unhealthy terms is...I'm talking more about the people that just have a belly. Multipule bellies are different heh but its still there choice.

*edit*
btw, you think if you have a fat gene and you work out you can burn off the gene?


Obviously, genetics do make a difference...

It doesn't matter what kind of pressure society is putting on people, or whether of not the pressue it puts on is unjust.

Laws incriminating marijuana are unjust. The reasons the government keeps it illegal is unjust. It is obviously unjust. But that means that the people who smoke marijuana should give in to the unjustness and not smoke marijuana? That people who are fat should not work off their fat because people put too much pressure on them to not be fat, for whatever reason the pressure is being put on?

Is it people's right to stay fat if they wish? Yes. Am I disagreeing with that right? No.

"For some they would really have to work hard to look good". Yes. This is what this is about. What I am saying is that it is a weakness that leads to people being fat. Not wanting to do the hard work to get rid of a disease that is having adverse effects on their body and their health is a weakness.

Whether or not they choose to give into the weakness, it is stiil a weakness. Whether or not it is easier for others to stay slim or whether or not there is pressure (just or unjust) from society to lose weight, it is still a weakness to avoid losing weight.

Let's say that there is a small city. They city is situated in a low plains area in a watershed. Let's say that somewhere north of the city a dam that is holding back water to produce energy breaks, all the water is released, and the city has three days before the water reaches them and floods the city, killing everyone.

There only chance of survival (we'll pretend that they can't flee the city, we'll imagine that they would love to keep their houses and properties intact) is to build a ten foot wall around the city to sucessfully block the water from overtaking the city in its rush down the watershed. We will say that three days is ample time for the city and its inhabitants to build this wall, and by building this wall they will all survive and prosper.

The benefits of building this wall are clearly obvious. The only thing agansit them is time. Now, should they NOT build the wall because they have a right to choose not to, or because the water is putting pressure on them to build the wall?

Hmmm... what do you think?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1854282 -

Here is the Seuss diet... easy to follow and it works wonders:

1) Eat whatever you want. Don't pay attention to calories, etc. If you want some cake or ice cream, go for it. Try to eat healthy, but don't kill yourself trying to avoid certain foods.

2) Eat all the time. Do not wait between meals, or only eat three square meals a day. Instead snack all the time. Healthy snacks are better.

3) Do not eat very much at any one time. This is very important. You want to eat all the time, but never very much at any one time. No eating huge meals until you are stuffed or you ruin the diet. You must eat small portions... even if it means leaving food on your plate. It is much better to eat four six-inch subs spaced out over the day than to eat all four in one sitting and nothing until dinner.

4) Exercise helps, but isn't required. Jumping rope for just a few minutes about 20 minutes before you eat is a great start.

5) Give yourself time to see results. This is a long term change in habits sort of diet, not a rollercoaster I fit into the dress today sort of diet.


The history of the above. I am thinner than most match sticks, but I have had housemates that were on the larger end of the scale. One of them asked me how I stay so thin when I am always eating. I had never really thought about it, so we started to pay attention to when and how much I ate. Based on our observations we came up with the above diet. I only have two samples (people that have tried it), but both were positive. The first one lost around 30 pounds total, at a rate of about five pounds a month. The second lost around 50 pounds total at the same rate. Both kept the weight off, didn't do massive exercise, didn't count calories, etc.

The key seems to be not eating large meals, rather lots and lots of little snacks spread out though the day. A handul of crackers here, a bite of fruit there.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1889025 -

I myself weigh over 250lbs.

My father and two of his siblings weigh over 250lbs.

My grandmother weighed over 250lbs.

My grannies mother weighed over 250lbs.

The mother of my grannies mother was taken by her parents to the public floggings and the brandings on the town square when she was a kid and she was over 250lbs too.

Genetic lack of willpower? I don't think so. The human race started agriculture about 6.000 years ago. Until then (say 50.000-100.000 years straight)our ancestors ate mostly fats and protein. After agriculture kicked in the carb count went up, way up. The last 100 years or so the carbohydrate intake exploded, as did the cardiovascular diseases and diabetes.

It is a fact that every country that adopts a high-sugar, high-starch diet (western lifestyle) the cardiovascular and diabetic problems multiply in correlation with the rise in carbohydrate intake.

When you eat carbs your body produces insulin to process it. Let's say you eat a bigass plate of french fries... It contains say 400 kcal of carbohydrates, some 300 kcal of fats and some protein.
You get an energy boost off of the carbs for like 2-4 hours and a slow burn is supplied by the fats until say 4-8 hours after eating it.

Not so with over 9 out of 10 (truely) obese people. They eat the 700kcal meal. Due to the carbohydrates the bloodsugar rises, just like in any body. But then it happens: Insulin overproduction occurs.
BAM! You eat and instead of going up your bloodsugar goes DOWN because Insulin overproduction pulls it out of the bloodstream. Where does it go? Well: some 20 grams of FAT are made out of those 100 grams of starches, and this is not burned but tucked away in your fatty tissues.

So a (truely) obese person eats the 700 kcal meal. What is the net result? Instead of burning those 700 calories a whopping 180 + 300 = 480 calories go to the fat reserve, 220 calories are actually USED and within an hour or so you are hungry again because you ATE 700 kcal but only GOT TO USE some 220 of them.

The hunger that strikes the truely obese within 1/2-1 1/2 hours is every bit as real as anybody's hunger because he ATE a full plate of fries but his body only lets him USE 1/3 of it and used the rest to distort his body.

The body of a truely obese person is every bit as disfigured as that of somebody with a half-sized arm: It is genetics dysmorphing the template of a healthy body. It is just more common. If somebody was born without eyes it would be rude to joke: "Hahah! cant see me can you? you stupid no-eyes!!" but because obesity is more common it is considered to liken their bodies and eating habits to that of pigs, to torment them with claiming they have no willpower etc. etc. just like they do to the disfigured in countries were leprosy is common.

Show a 6 year old kid a picture of an obese kid and ask what he thinks that kid is like. I promise you're in for one of the worst shocks of your life! Every prejudice is already laid into them.

And in the mean time over 95% of obese people remain obese for the major part of their lives. And anorexics starve themselves to death because they are right in noticing being considered fat is a major social disdadvantage.

Well: scratch those carbs and replace them with fats and proteins you might ironically say. This is precisely what the low-carbohydrate diet is based on. You eat MORE fat (meat, fish, eggs, fowl, mayonnaise, butter etc.), as much as you like in fact. Your appetite drops multifold and you lose weight like you were on a starvation diet.

And all the while you're well-fed and your blood cholesterol is DOWN as well as your triglycerides. So you eat alot of hard, saturated fats and unsaturated oils and yet you lose weight, are never hungry and are in better health then you were before!

The most well-known of these diets is the Dr. Atkins Diet. www.atkinscenter.com Currently long-term studies of these kinds of diets are in progress. Perhaps in 10 years or so it will be the diet reccomended to the obese instead of (more) starvation, because until now there are no indications that it is anything but healthier than the calorie-restricted diet.

I have never reached my old weight again.


.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Shroomery and Bluelight sitting inna tree - Harm-re-duc-tion-har-mo-ny

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1889237 -

the atkins diet is crap. to understand the atkins diet, you need to understand the three potential sources of energy in the human diet. these are carbohydrates, fats, and protein.

CARBS- all of that beef that dr. atkins has with carbs... much of it is well-founded. the problem is that he hasn't made any distinction between the radically different classes of carbs, those being on the wide spectrum between carbs with a high glycemic index and those with a low glycemic index.

the glycemic index is a measurement of how quickly certain carbohydrate foods raise ones blood suger. you've heard the terms "simple carb" and "complex carb" before... carbs with a high glycemic index are your simple carbs. they are the ones sending your blood sugar and insulin levels on a crazy rollercoaster. they are your refined flour, sugars, and starches.

foods with a low glycemic index are a very valuable source of energy. they're the best fuel for your body to run on. vegetables, and many fruits contain low-glycemic index carbs. these foods are very good for you not just for the vitamins and minerals they contain, but for the quality carbohydrate. low-glycemic index carbs are the single best source of energy for your body. they 'burn' smoothly and cleanly.

the atkins diet does not make any distinctions between the wide spectrum of carbs (that's just as far as i know... if it simply calls for a reduction in classic *carbohydrate foods* [read: simple carbs: refined flour, sugar, starches] then that's good).

FATS- fats are not a terrible energy source, but they tend to get packed away instead of burned. they are a little harder for your body to use as fuel.

there are 3 classes of fats. polyunsaturated, monounsaturated, and saturated. all fats are a blend of the three. polyunsaturated fats are carcinogenic, and saturated fats clog your arteries. the only healthy kind of fat is monounsaturated. it's abundant in fish oil, olive oil, and canola oil. a certain amount of fat is needed in the diet, but it definitely should not be used as a major source of energy.

PROTEIN- we're all aware that protein is used for building tissues in the body. when the body doesn't have enough carbs or fat to burn, it can also turn to protein as a last resort for energy.

protein is not a clean-burning fuel. unlike fats and carbs, it contains nitrogen, which is troublesome to eliminate from the body. it must be filtered out by the liver and kidneys, then flushed out in urine. eating alot of protein and not enough carbs is hard on your liver and kidneys and causes you to lose water.

the atkins diet exploits protein as a fuel source, which is terribly unhealthy. much of the weight lost by people on the atkins diet is water from excessive urination, and it's also nasty on the kidneys and liver.

TO SUM IT ALL UP- avoid high-glycemic index carb foods, but get plenty low-index ones. eat a little fat, and make it primarily monounsaturated fat. don't go overboard on protein. the only thing your body should be doing with it is using it to build tissue.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: ]
    #1890232 -

Actually the Dr. Atkins diet takes glycemic index in account, as well as sugars that do not trigger an insulin response (like sugar alcohols)

Simple carb/complex carb is also taken into account.

"..polyunsaturated fats are carcinogenic, and saturated fats clog your arteries." Wel that's simply put! It is healthy to have all three in the diet, but in their right proportions. In the right proportions the polys are indeed very healthy. Saturated fats clog up your arteries? My, my, my! Most all fats that enter the body are converted to palmitin and stearin (the rock-hard fats they make candles of) as the hard fats are the primary fuels of the fat reserve.
As for clogging up your arteries: They do no such thing!

High triglycerides in the blood (high fat content) cause seperation of fats. The triglyceride x LDL x HDL cholesterols are the holy grail of predicting cardiovascular disease and the general clogging of arteries. high lipids are basically the equivalent of oversupplying with a fuel: akin to pumping gas into your car and letting it overflow. With the dr. Atkins diet you use up your lipids faster than you eat them: Yes you eat MORE fats but your body almost exclusively runs on them, and the net result is your blood lipids are MUCH LOWER than before you started.

Indeed the atkins diet causes some weight loss due to losing a few liters of water. But losing twenty, fifty, a hundred pounds of water?

The low-carbohydrate diet seems in fact so healthy that if the long-term results match those of the 5 years of study done thus far the American Heart Association wil recommend it as the primary diet for obesity. Studies up until now show nothing but a health advantage over either being (very) obese or losing weight the starvation way.


.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Shroomery and Bluelight sitting inna tree - Harm-re-duc-tion-har-mo-ny

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1946478 -

The key to any healthy approach to eating is balance. Too much or too little of any food perpetuates an unhealthy eating pattern. While the food pyramid is not the end-all, be-all of food intake resources and guides, it certainly demostrates balance in consumption.


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"Those sweet excesses I do adore."


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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1946514 -



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1946533 -

To get back to the original question raised for a moment, of course there is a ton of pressure (no pun intended) on overweight people from society. Now if you've seen my picture on Adamist's recent Pub picture thread, you can probably tell I'm relatively skinny. When you get down to it, it's mostly genetics. And when it's not, how are we to tell? In short ( no slight towards short people) we just can't judge. But.. having said that there is no accounting for taste, and people are attracted to different body types for reasons that go beyond morality.









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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1946821 -

more cushin for the pushin! =] lol jk. but in all seriousness its none of our business. :\ thats just the way I feel. if you feel like you personally need to change then thats fine, but dont make others change just becuase you want to change. or somthing like that..

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: whole9]
    #1946935 -

fast people are such whiners. some sappy people consider it a disease. theres absolutly no excuse for it the only person to blame is the lard cake. so if it is a fatal disease. i dont see anorexics whining that societys pressuring them to gain weight.

fat people are fucking disgusting. i mean really i cant think of many thing more disgusting and ive seen a woman with mushrooms growing on her feet.  its very important to be in good physical shape and thats why everyone hates fattys. at least theyll probably die very young so we'll never haf to look at them again. :smile:

oh and im talking about chronicly obese people. theres nothing wrong with a little bit of extra weight cuz it gives you extra strength for crushing skulls and what not.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1946939 -

heh i was a bit to harsh. but i really think very fat people shhould sort themselves out. ill try to justify it a bit!

the way people live. in the cirty and shit. you can get by without being fit. im one of those people like the dudes above. i eat like as fucking pig and never gain any weight. buut im very active. i like running through the woods, jumping around, fighting. we may not need it but its damn good to be strong. feels good being able to pick up heavy shi t you know?

i got a dim view of humans an i look a t us in evolutionary terms. i mean if a cave man or some one in ages past was so fat he couldnt run hed get hit over the head and eaten. our sole two reasons for existing are to fight each other and have sex with as many women as possible. obese dudes are horrible at both of those things.

and that my friends is why i hate fat people so much.
VOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: whole9]
    #1946965 -

whole9 said:
more cushin for the pushin! =] lol jk. but in all seriousness its none of our business. :\ thats just the way I feel. if you feel like you personally need to change then thats fine, but dont make others change just becuase you want to change. or somthing like that.. 


I don't personally need to change. I don't have much fat on me at all, although my stomach and ass are just a bit bigger than they need to be. I didn't say anything about wanting to make others change or that they should. That isn't what this is about.

What this is about is how unhealthy it is to remain obese. Check out that flood analogy that I mentioned above. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1947143 -

Lazerouth wrote (among other things):


""fat people are such whiners. some sappy people consider it a disease. theres absolutly no excuse for it the only person to blame is the lard cake. so if it is a fatal disease. i dont see anorexics whining that societys pressuring them to gain weight.

fat people are fucking disgusting. i mean really i cant think of many thing more disgusting and ive seen a woman with mushrooms growing on her feet. its very important to be in good physical shape and thats why everyone hates fattys. at least theyll probably die very young so we'll never haf to look at them again.

i got a dim view of humans an i look a t us in evolutionary terms. i mean if a cave man or some one in ages past was so fat he couldnt run hed get hit over the head and eaten. our sole two reasons for existing are to fight each other and have sex with as many women as possible. obese dudes are horrible at both of those things.

and that my friends is why i hate fat people so much. ""



Being chronically obese and having lost my grandmother to obesity-related diseases I take high offence at this.

It is your antisocial kind, dear sir, that was culled or banished from the tribes of old. I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes shaking with anger and am filled with disgust because of your casual remarks.

Yesterday I scattered the ashes of my mother. Today I come to the Shroomery for some solace and find some antisocial asshole like you calling me and half of my family WHINERS,LARDCAKES, FUCKING DISGUSTING and that you delight in seeing al of us dying very young.

You, kind sir, never have seriously dealt with real people because if you did you would not have gotten away with points of view like you have.

It is modern society and the seeming independence of others that allows opinions like yours to breed and multiply and that cultivates highly disagreeable web personas with exploding-head avatars who think they can crap all over whole societal groups wishing them a quick death and such.

What you have spewed is not an opinion, it is hatred solidified in binary code to be read by hundreds of people, many of whom are themselves chronically obese and some of whom will indeed die before their time.

I do not know the person behind the exploding head avatar but the hateful persona called lazerouth would not be allowed to exist in the tribes of old because they seriously undermine group cohesion, which is a life or death issue in hunter-gatherer tribes.

as for your statement: ""our sole two reasons for existing are to fight each other and have sex with as many women as possible."" I am wondering what the fuck you are doing in Spir & Phil.

Your remarks regarding chronically obese people may seem general to you, but they in fact are highly personal insults to each and every person suffering from this affliction.


I feel very, very hurt by your words and they have cast a shadow over this already horrible day. I am deeply disgusted by your statements and seeming point of view. This is not a flame, this is my way of expressing that your hatered of me (due to my physical shape) is hereby met with a deep loathing from me to you (because of your spiritual/philosophical stance) and that your desire to see me die young (I will die young as a matter of fact because of a purely genetic malformation of my coronary arteries totally unrelated to obesity) hereby is met by the same sentiments. In fact, I'd like an MPEG of yours because it might make an avatar that is equally funny as the one you display.

Thanks a lot for gunning down my last shred of hope for this day and for plunging me back into the hellhole I just managed to crawl out of. You cannot possibly imagine what hurt you have caused me and all this because you're grabbing the internet opportunity of anonimity to take a dump on troubled people who have never done anything wrong towards you.


THANK YOU FOR MAKING ME FEEL LIKE SHIT.
THANK YOU FOR COMPLETELY RUINING THIS DAY FOR ME.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR COWARDLY ANONYMOUS ATTACK ON ME AND MY LOVED ONES.



(Mod: please don't delete this post. I was not protected against his vicious attack by moderation so please do not protect him from the consequences of his actions. I won't regret these words.)


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Shroomery and Bluelight sitting inna tree - Harm-re-duc-tion-har-mo-ny

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1947162 -

Wiccan_Seeker said:
THANK YOU FOR MAKING ME FEEL LIKE SHIT.
THANK YOU FOR COMPLETELY RUINING THIS DAY FOR ME.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR COWARDLY ANONYMOUS ATTACK ON ME AND MY LOVED ONES.


How can anyone or anything make you feel like shit? Yeah, what he said wasn't in the best of taste. But what he said, some anonymous guy on an Internet forum, has completely ruined your day? If it seriously has, you are too dependant on outside conditions shaping your inner state of mind... I mean, I feel terrible for your loss and everything, but what some guy in some forum that wasn't even directed at you should not ruin your day.

Quote:
It is modern society and the seeming independence of others that allows opinions like yours to breed and multiply and that cultivates highly disagreeable web personas with exploding-head avatars who think they can crap all over whole societal groups wishing them a quick death and such.
quote]

I didn't realize that having free will was so bad.. whatever he decides do with his time is his choice. Is having the freedom of will to blame for what people do with free will? Nah, don't think so... It is the person themselves that are responsible for their words and actions. You might not agree with his words, I may not agree with them, but he decided to say them and he had the choice to do so... he hasn't harmed anyone, either, if anyone took offense by his words, they are the ones who chose to take offense.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but it is the truth. I have been insulted a lot, directly, but it never ruined my day. It made me start to wonder how someone could actually get off by trying to degrade someone else, but it never degraded me because I didn't let it. So what, some guy said something bad to me. I have more important things to concern myself with. Concern yourslelf with what you want..
Peace.



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947191 -

I realize of course that some people are genetically dispositioned to be fat but is that an excuse to eat a huge mayonnaise sandwich before you go to bed or to down eight dough-nuts between meals?
All the fat people i know eat enormous amounts of food. Of course they will be hungry as hell when they cut down on calories but the human body will adjust so lack off willpower is a big factor.

I'm thin but in great shape. I complained about being to thin and not being able to put on weight. Then i started lifting weights and force feeding myself and i added 10kilos faster then thought was possible.
Maybe i should have just complained about my genes.





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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1947296 -

errrrrm yeeaaahh riigght.

its just the internet. since when did interntet opinions matter? i don't hate anyone. is just when you have to use 2 chairs to sit down anf you have 4 chins you got a problem.

im actually a nice guy. i was s just coming back to delete it for my fat friend but i leave it now cuz your silly..

dont kill yourself okay?

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1947381 -

Lazerouth said:
errrrrm yeeaaahh riigght.

its just the internet. since when did interntet opinions matter? i don't hate anyone. is just when you have to use 2 chairs to sit down anf you have 4 chins you got a problem.

im actually a nice guy. i was s just coming back to delete it for my fat friend but i leave it now cuz your silly..

dont kill yourself okay?


Man, there are forum rules and such, though, I wouldn't suggest crossing those lines...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1947424 -

I'll admit for some people like me it is EXTREMLY hard to lose weight, but the best way to start is to know that you and yourself is resposible for the problem, stop blaming it on McDonalds.

Also i think fat kids dont get made fun of enough in the U.S. Man where i grew up i got made fun of harshly everyday, why are these kids getting it so easy? No wonder America is full of fat teenagers, no ones making fun of them! Why lose weight.


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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Spokesman]
    #1947488 -

> No wonder America is full of fat teenagers, no ones making fun of them!

Nah, we are full of fat kids because parents have turned the job of raising their children over to the television. Most kids idea of exercise is getting up to change the game in their playstation.

> I'll admit for some people like me it is EXTREMLY hard to lose weight

Some people are not meant to be thin, or even average. I have friends that are overweight, their families are overweight, it is genetics. No matter how much exercise they do, or how little they eat, they are going to be big.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Spokesman]
    #1947502 -

Quote:
Also i think fat kids dont get made fun of enough in the U.S. Man where i grew up i got made fun of harshly everyday, why are these kids getting it so easy?


There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!

--Pink Floyd

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1947995 -

Hmm..

The thought that you're actually a nice guy must be really comforting to you. I disagree on this because nice guys, even if if they're conviced they are right, tend to post a different kind of reply to the things said than what you just did.

I have had many encounters with disagreeable people. I have seen a lot of opinions on just about anything that I find questionable, especially on the internet where just about anything goes.

Your original post I reacted on was one thing, but your subsequent response and PM have quite frankly amazed me.
But I guess you think that's silly too.

This is not a matter of lacking social skills on your behalf, your response strikes me as structurally unsound.


Please steer clear of any postings and threads I write and I will do likewise. We are truely incompatible.


.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Shroomery and Bluelight sitting inna tree - Harm-re-duc-tion-har-mo-ny

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1948018 -

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Hmm..

The thought that you're actually a nice guy must be really comforting to you. I disagree on this because nice guys, even if if they're conviced they are right, tend to post a different kind of reply to the things said than what you just did.

I have had many encounters with disagreeable people. I have seen a lot of opinions on just about anything that I find questionable, especially on the internet where just about anything goes.

Your original post I reacted on was one thing, but your subsequent response and PM have quite frankly amazed me.
But I guess you think that's silly too.

This is not a matter of lacking social skills on your behalf, your response strikes me as structurally unsound.


Please steer clear of any postings and threads I write and I will do likewise. We are truely incompatible.


. 


:smile:

maybe he just needs a hug?

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: chunder]
    #1948524 -

-sigh- okay at this point, I feel compelled to repeat a post I've repeated already quite a few times, regarding the problem of obesity in our society...first of all, If it was really just THAT frickin easy to start eating super-healthy and lose weight and train everyday and take off all that weight, then why arent there lesser fat people? cuz it is NOT easy DUH (and thats an understatement)!...You have to have a very strong, healthy, optimistic, HAPPY, confident MIND..to go do these things succesfully...somebody else already covered this point better than I did;
Quote:
chunder said:
I agree, mind and body are one and the same, they affect each other constantly. I really don't think its as easy to have a healthy mind if one lacks a suitably healthy body. Peace.


Exactly..
And what about those people who were born fat, because of poor genes, etc? I know some skinny ass people who can eat alll the want, whatever they want, and dont gain weight.....and vice versa, some fat people can eat just nothing but fuckin lettuce and cucumbers and they're still fat, because they're genetically obese, they were BORN fat. Obesity is one of the most psychologically isolating disabilities , so of course most obese people don't have tons of frickin confidence that they would need to go out in public and start working out at gyms, and bullshit. So it's natural that alot of them will get that "If you cant beat em, join em" mentality, and simply accept who they are, and be proud of it.

But, I do agree that the society in USA doesnt help much with the nearly-epidemic problem of obesity, with all the fast food junk restaurants being all the rage, and fatty unhealthy lunches in schools and not to mention that most average families arent super health nut freaks to begin with, so they tend to raise their children with unhealthy eating habits, and perpetuates the cycle, over and over and over.......and not to mention that close-minded stereotyping people bash them mindlessly and make it all even worse...
just my two cents

btw, I'm not fat, I'm just defending the weak here


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #1950343 -

SkorpivoMusterion said:
cuz it is NOT easy DUH (and thats an understatement)!...You have to have a very strong, healthy, optimistic, HAPPY, confident MIND..to go do these things succesfully...somebody else already covered this point better than I did


That's exactly what this whole post was originally about. Of course losing weight isn't easy, and the benefits of losing weights are plainly obvious, but yet people still don't lose weight.

Which points to some weakness, as you pointed out. Blaming society's pressure or the fact that other people don't need to watch their weight doesn't solve the problem. Blaming the fact that it is hard to lose weight isn't the problem. The problem is not building up the strength to lose weight, and that strength carries over to all other aspects of your life.

I sort of believe that being overweight is the physical manifestation of the mental weakness, as well. Body and mind, mind and body..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1950708 -

Hmm, Fireworksgod, lets get on-topic again..

""people still don't lose weight.
Which points to some weakness, as you pointed out...""

The word weakness is a morally charged word. The general idea seems to be that if people just got off their ass and did something about it they would not have a given problem. The impression that rubs off on others is that if you have a given problem for a long time you are too lazy to do something about it. People who are judged to be "too lazy" are deemed inferior in most societies.

Therefor your statement bears the charge that obese people are weak-willed and that they themselves are to blame for it. That it is a matter of inferior moral fiber.

There is such a thing as an equilibrium between mind and body there is undeniable. When a Cambodian kid trips a POMZ landmine and has both his legs blown off, the brain centers controlling motion and awareness of the legs may need some time to adjust (phantom limbs, the sensation of feeling the limbs you have in fact lost.) but in the long run these braincenters will shrivel to make way for brain centers that actually are in use. So basically the poor kid not only loses his legs, but in fact after some time the "legs" themselves grow out of his mind/brain.
In this case a change in the body causes a change in the mind.

Now the kid he was playing with at the time has experienced that his buddy ran from the path to catch the ball he threw, suddenly there was this big thunderstrike and the next thing he knew he got smacked and splattered by meat, bone and blood and sees the top half of his buddy lying on the ground screaming and bleeding. He right then and there decides he will never leave his hut and because of the solemness of the vow he never does. His legs atrophy away by lack of exercise and he becomes physically incapable of walking.
In this case a change in the mind leads to a change in the body.

A third kid hears a thud and screaming and the whole village pours out to help the wounded one. Not him: he was born without legs and the braincenters to operate them and so he is incapable to act on it.
In this case genetics have rendered his mind and body impotent.

[please donate to demining charities: these people are TRUE heroes; there are over 6 million mines left in Cambodia alone]

Well this was a pretty rough scene but it represents the three major points of view: Incapability of mind, incapability of body and genetic predisposition. In all three cases there is an equilibrium between body and mind. The one adjusts to the other or both adjust to a pre-existing factor.

Now likening this to severe obesity sounds pretty harsh to most. But is the difference really that large? All three (obesity, lack of limbs or limb atrophy) are clearly visible distortions of a healthy body template. All three lead to disability in the physical sense. All three conditions are predicaments that most who have them rather not endure.

But a lot of Cambodian kids watch their steps and won't trip the POMZ anyway.. So is the first kid to blame for being so careless? Is his predicament his fault, morally?

A lot of kids see their friends blown up over there and yet most do not crawl into a corner and let their legs wither.. So is the second kid to blame for not getting over it and moving on?

Is the kid that was born without legs morally weak for not coming out right?

It is recognised by most that severe obesity has all three factors rolled into one: There are bodily causes (like thyroid/insulin anomalities), there is such a thing as psychological eating (eating for other than nutrititive reasons) and there is a genetic factor involved. It seems reasonably straightforward to think that you should just cut down on foods and you get slim, right?

And yet for some reason over 95% of people who were over 50lbs overweight (severe obesity of the kind that clusters in families) in any time of their life (unrelated to pregnancy) are unable to retain a "normal" (has the subjective word "norm" in it) weight for the major part of their life thereafter.

It quite rare for a truely obese person to "recover". So rare in fact, that it can safely be assumed that being slender is alien to their equilibrium.

You could argue that third world countries have no such problems. And indeed they don't. Most of them are reasonably slender while some die of starvation. Here in the west we have got an abundance of food. Here too most are reasonably slender, while some pop their belts. Put third-worlders in a rich food enviroments and a lot of them will get weight problems. Put first-worlders into a poor food enviroment and a lot of them will die of starvation. (healthy foods or not)

But interestlingly it is the rich-food-obese that is in best shape in the poor food enviroment while the rich-food-slenders die, and it's the poor-food-slenders that pop their belts in the rich food enviroments while the poor-food-starvers are in best shape in the rich food enviroment. So oddly enough tending towards overweight or underweight are both desirable in one place but very bad in the other.

So what do we have?
1...Obesity has physical, mental and genetic factors.
2...95% of family-clustered obese people basically stay obese no matter how hard they try.
3...Tending overweight/underweight is healthy in the opposite food enviroments but almost inevitably spells disaster in the other.

Is there something not right with obese people? True. No denying that. Is there something not right with named Cambodian kids? Ofcourse!

But I think it is wrong to bring morality into it. There is something not right and this manifests itself visually through being either way to light, way to heavy or people with some limbs missing. Who would dare to ridicule and the Cambodian kids and turn them into social outcasts?
Well, way too many Cambodians do. Who would dare to ridicule extremely overweight people and turn them into pariahs? Well, the vast majority of western society.

There is something wrong here. If you truely, TRUELY want to live without limbs or bearing 100 excess pounds (imagine) you should be able to in my opinion. But let us by all means keep morality out of it if that means the crosses people bear are made heavier by it.
Severe obesity, severe underweight problems and the loss of limbs are absolute tragedies. There is a distinct deviation in body, mind and brain present.

But let's stop playing the blame game, the pain game, and start building that dam together side by side, for we will all drown if we fight amongst ourselves and don't stand united, for in this 21th century there are many floods that threaten all of humanity.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Shroomery and Bluelight sitting inna tree - Harm-re-duc-tion-har-mo-ny

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1951172 -

Damn, some fatties are pretty involved in this stuff

naafa.org, check out the forums - it's hilarious

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: ]
    #1951274 -

I wasn't bringing morality into any of this. I was only pointing out who is to blame for people being overweight, that it isn't society, the producers and sellers of food, or anyone else, just the person themselves, and that some sort of weakness is the cause of the obesity.

You have pointed, out, though, that certain bad genetics result in obesity that basically can't be fought agansit. The weakness, in this case, resides in the genetics themselves. I don't know enough about genectics of DNA to say whether or not this weakness can be strengthend within one person (selective breeding and such can produce better genes in future people).

Quote:
But a lot of Cambodian kids watch their steps and won't trip the POMZ anyway.. So is the first kid to blame for being so careless? Is his predicament his fault, morally?

A lot of kids see their friends blown up over there and yet most do not crawl into a corner and let their legs wither.. So is the second kid to blame for not getting over it and moving on?


If the kid knew about the possibility of the landmines and was careless, then he is to blame for his carelessness. I am not saying that his being careless is right or wrong, it is up to him, and only he is to blame for his legs being blown off. If there was no way of knowing about the landmines, there was nothing he could do, and his outcome was not of his doing directly. Life handed him a bad card, it is up to him to make the best of it.

The second kid is to blame for his depression and security issues. While it is his choice and so forth, it is only of his doing. Only we decide how we react to different situations.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1951582 -

http://www.elftor.com/guest.php?number=22

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1951890 -

I see. But the nit I have to pick nontheless is that I'd like to place iut in another light.

I agree that if you meet an obstacle (mind/body/genetic or combi) you should strive to either get it out of your way or at least try to reduce the harm if clearing it alltogether. I myself would replace "is to blame" for "should assume responsibility for" and if you mean it like this we both agree.

Well, almost all people with major obesity have desperately tried all sorts of diets or, on another level, "miracle drug" like the killer called FenPhen and many other amphetamine nightmares. A lot try to get in the best shape possible. My uncle played high league basketball (amateur) at a full 300 lbs. He had the speed and allthough he ofcourse could not slam-dunk he scored alot. But now his knees have gone to shite. Because of the vigorous exercise.

Did he lose weight molesting his body by over-excersizing? Not one gram. He just lost like 5 lbs of water and he drank that on in no time.

Here's a man that gave everything he could to get in shape. He nearly blew out his heart on amphetamines. He let himself get mocked over and over again by the old weight watchers method of negative reinforcement. Show him a bean and he's like: "Kidneybean, one. weighs approximately o.6 grams: 0.1 calories, eat no more than twenty" he knows all the calories of everything. He slaved and slaved to get in shape and let's face it: he was in shape. When you outrun 150 lbs teammates weighing 300 lbs you are in fucking good shape!
And yet all he got out of it was his full 300lbs and two worn down knees. And to the man in the street he still was the lazy fat pig and it was universally assumed by the people that didn't know him well that he was lazy and lacked all sorts of willpower.

Perhaps you are not meaning this judgemental but as pointed out by others very obese people have got it pretty harsh. Society is quite hostile when you're in the general direction of 250lbs.
This creates low self-esteem and a reasonable degree of unhappiness in most that is detrimental to sustained efforts like keeping off the pounds.

Society is not the cause, but is an obstacle in achieving permanent weight loss because if you have heroically lost 100 pounds and still have some 20 too much on you you're still treated like shit for being a "lardass" with no willpower. And remember that if you really go for it and lose a whole bunch of weight too fast you get loose skin hanging off that really looks a lot less appealing then being rotund.

If you need 2.000 calories to get by and only eat 1.200 like on a lot of diets you in fact eat as much as they do in the third world. And just like in the third world your body adjusts by shedding muscle and other tissues so that you'll get fat if you eat 1.300 kcal. So its 800 for you?

O..K now you can only malnourish yourself or balloon out on less than half the kcal your body was made to digest and needs for vitamin and mineral content. 95% of obese people can not keep off the pounds on a low calorie (= starvation) diet because it is nothing short of destruction of the body.

Getting off the starvation bus isn't lack of willpower: it is a sign of healthy self-regulatory mechanisms. The low-carb diets are strange, but they are the only dietary measures that are both healthier then obesity and the starvation "alternative".

The reason I'm going at length here is because true obesity is a horror beyond most peoples comprehension. I like to shed some light on the matter for clarity as to its personal, social and physical impact.

The cause of obesity lies within the person. But there are a lot of things inside of a body that are not to be influenced by "willpower" except by the most advanced of yogis. For "true" obesity the problem likely ceases to exist or lessens majorly if the responsible genes were blocked or altered.

"Breeding out" sounds like the nazi philosophy of eugenetics, meaning only an elite may procreate. This is far less acceptable then developing a drug to REVERSIBLY block the genes involved. It will be a pill that'll give one a fighting chance against obesity and I expect it to hit the prescribing book before the year 2025. This is as much "undermining willpower" as insulin shots are to a diabetic.

It only blocks the genetic predisposition to severe obesity and nothing more, which is quite different from amphetamine diet pills or other "magic bullets". And moreover: it keeps the genes inside of the gene pool so should famine strike one just has to quit the pill and remain a healthy weight.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Shroomery and Bluelight sitting inna tree - Harm-re-duc-tion-har-mo-ny

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1952196 -

You know alot of fat people dont actually know how fat they are. When i looked at myself from my perspective i was always just chubby, i never knew why they called me fat. I felt like i could do anything any thin kid could and never knew why they laughed when i tried. I dont know but when i looked in mirrors i looked chubby and was terrably misled untill i saw myself on a video camera when i was like 17. I almost cried ,lol. I saw the way i stood up, moved, sat was nothing like i thought it was. Diffrent parts of my back, stomach and chest moved at diffrent times. My self esteem plumeted to hell at that time. Untill i realizeD that my low-self esteem was making me stay this way. Because i wasnt trying. I have lost 50 lbs in the last 7 months and realized that life is what you make it and that nothing comes easy. When i lay on bed frowning about how much my muscles hurt and how much craving i got for a chocolate cake. I think of what my life will be like if i was able to see myself in a video and see the person i thought i was. How i can buy clothes for cheaper. how i can actually have name brand clothes instead of some pants that have the word "BIG DADDY" in the back. Motivation and Moderation is the key. I also started to take control my weed smokin'. I smoke only if im going to do something physical or something to keep me away from the munchies. Water and juices have become my munchies. ANd all i can say is if fat people saw how much they have control over their life America would be a better place. Because everyone would see how good life is.


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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Spokesman]
    #1953308 -

The Wiccan_Seeker rule of rotundness: "When you can hide your hands under your belly you are obese, if not you are overweight"

First of all: congratulations on burning off those 50 lbs! 200.000 kcal are a lot to lose, a big  :thumbup: for you!

It's true that there's a lot of self-deception going on. It's not just obesity: a lot of people live as the King and Queen of DeNile on all sorts of stuff. The first step is indeed to become aware that there is a problem and the extent of it, and as I said before after that you should assume responsibility and give it your best shot, exactly like you did. But do not underestimate the difficultness of keeping it off if you have hereditary (family clustered) obesity.

I myself have had my 25,50,75 and even one 100 lbs weight loss successes, as has the big side of my family. We do not eat a lot of sweets and such, and it isn't fast food either. It's basically regular servings of wholesome foods. Our thin relatives eat just about the same amounts and all of us are on the move. But just like the rest of the 95+% we cannot keep it off beyond months or some years of a desirable weight.

You are right: life IS great! And willpower does go a long way. But remember that each person is unique. There are light smokers that get cancer and afterwards smoke through their tracheostoma because they are unable to quit and there are heavy smokers that quit with relative ease.

I agree wholeheartedly that willpower is majorly important and a beautiful thing. But willpower isn't measurable with scales, as two problems of seemingly the same scope may require vastly different levels of (sustained) willpower. And on top of that a lot of people cannot even bear equal burdens.

As said: I think you should not try to lay blame anywhere (moralistically speaking) but that you have to take charge and give it your best shot as life is all about conquering mountains and wandering the beautiful valleys that lie between. But desperately trying to achieve something that is unrealistic may undermine your long-term self esteem, happiness and even health.

Go for the gold, give it your best shot (and I do mean your best) but should you fail you should try to sustain the best result that can be had.

A famous mental coach in Holland says than when you haven't earned a million you lack moral fibre and that you yourself are to blame (morally) because of lack off willpower.
The majority of dutch people fantasize about airdropping him in the Sahel desert and positive-think up his food and water and make a million there amidst the poorest of the poor. Some things are not obtainable by anybody but you should by all means try to work at it as hard as you can.

Again: a big thumbs up for your weightloss success!
If you can sustain it you're in the clear and can take personal pride in having conquered a major mountain. You have my respect!


. 


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Shroomery and Bluelight sitting inna tree - Harm-re-duc-tion-har-mo-ny

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1953490 -

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Perhaps you are not meaning this judgemental but as pointed out by others very obese people have got it pretty harsh. Society is quite hostile when you're in the general direction of 250lbs.
This creates low self-esteem and a reasonable degree of unhappiness in most that is detrimental to sustained efforts like keeping off the pounds.


I agree, society is harsh, and it is terrible. And it does create low self-esteem and unhappiness in most, but it isn't the actual harshness that is creating it: it is themselves.

Genetics are a fucking bitch. And basically the only situation that will solve this is like a pill or something that you mentioned, some sort of genetic treatment.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1956701 -

""I agree, society is harsh, and it is terrible. And it does create low self-esteem and unhappiness in most, but it isn't the actual harshness that is creating it: it is themselves.""


Hey, it seems we're passing beyond the communication barrier here!
I agree with you 100% that the low self-esteem and unhappiness usually stem off of the percieved harshness, but that it's the person himself that creates the response.

When you are treated like shit you tend towards negativity and when you're around uplifting people you tend towards the positive. But I agree with you that your response is mostly dependent on your own internal processes.

It is known (I like extreme examples and collect all sorts of facts and factoids trying to understand the world) that some warvictims fell in love and wedded eachother in nazi deathcamps and that some people who won tons of money in lotteries etc. got in such a state of confusion that they committed suicide within hours of learning they had become millionaires.

Your response to something generally is associated with an external event but it comes from within.
I am not convinced people are responsible for their actions, but I do agree that assuming responsibility for your life is one of the most healthy stances I know of.



.



--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Shroomery and Bluelight sitting inna tree - Harm-re-duc-tion-har-mo-ny

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Asante]
    #1956910 -

Spokesman I'm dissapointed,I expected atleast one joke about your metabolism to make me laught >: ).

"I just wanna pinch it and tell it to wake the fuck up!"

Okay,I just wanna say this little thing,if you see someone who is fat,chance are,that person isn't happy about it,so please,don't give that person a hard time.

Remember,we're all humans,and we all hurt,we all have sensitive spots we don't want to someone to go at,it's not cool.

Thank ya.

Also,fat people,we aren't a race of people,lets quit talking about us like we have our own country/culture from skinny people and they are oppressing us like an overbearing(no pun intended) majority,thats kind of dumb.


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"Wanted it anyway,
Public display of affection,
burnt out on the sidewalk,
feelings in hindsight" -Stoned Apple Pies

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Re: Society's Pressure on Fat People [Re: Gasoline15]
    #1957340 -

Yes there are people that are born heavy but 99.99 percent is born normal. If your calorie expenditure is more then your intake you WILL loose weight. Its as simple as that.

I hate when someone says "i cant loose weight". Because everyone in the world, even the clinically obese people can loose weight.
Take any fat person in the world and starve him in a POW camp for a few years and he will be as thin as a model.

If you dont eat you dont gain weight.







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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

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