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OfflineMixomatosis
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Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what?
    #3154816 - 09/20/04 02:22 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

So the other day I was reading some stuff by Wade Davis. He was describing a Colombian people who's main imperative was to be high on cocoa 24/7. Er, the men at least, the women weren't allowed to do it. And when you get married, the shaman overseeing the ceremony gets first dibs on the wife. And should one of these people be born under a lucky star they get shamanistic training which means for the first 18 years of their lives they are nocturnal and not ever allowed to see the sun or even a full moon. Some pretty fucked up shit, but hey, they live in harmony with the land and all that, so whatever.

But really, I don't see a lot of evidence out there to convince me that ancient tribal people living close to nature were any more peaceful or enlightened or anything.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3154834 - 09/20/04 02:29 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

they aren;t more enlightened, rather they laid the techniques and basic knowledges for US to carry on and become 'enlightened'... I think for their time they WERE enlightened


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #3154864 - 09/20/04 02:43 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

So if for their time they were enlightened, but not now, should we just scrap all their ideals then? Are we done with these people? Throw 'em in the meat grinder?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3154884 - 09/20/04 02:48 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I would think not... you may not dance in the rain and stare at the moon while tripping, but without the psychonaughts of the past how could one partake in a shamanistic experience? and countless other figures in the past gaining seemingly 'profound' knowledge why under the effects of other substances, even the founding fathers of America... It's important not to get caught up in exact details of the past and try to reconstruct them.. rather look at them, and fashion a means of action from your own experience


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3155087 - 09/20/04 11:30 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I think what they did was important for us to know...that they were wrong...:grin:...and so that we wouldn't do the same shit. 

Maybe like 2ex said, they were enlightened for their time, but a good thing that some other people came along and said, "Wow, what stupid shit these people are doing."  Or maybe some people left the tribe and said, "Boy is that some stupid shit they make us do!"  And they went off and started a new tribe that did more enlightened shit.

All societies do stupid shit that appears not very enlightened.  Um, which society thought it was a good idea to scrape up some plants, roll it in a piece of paper, stick it in our mouths, and set it on fire?  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3155258 - 09/20/04 12:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

being from different places, different perspectives emerge, but you can pretty much tell when things are not fair.
life is so flexible, that many kinds of plasticity can be explored even abusive ones.

now did you say the shaman gets all the fresh girls?
maybe it is heaven to the suicide bombers!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3156195 - 09/20/04 04:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Look, the use of coca leaves by the people indiginous to the rain forests of South America is not a misuse of drugs or hazardous to their health in any serious fashion. The concentration of the drug in the leaves is unlike the refined product. It provides a high of about the same magnitude as drinking coffee and is about as addictive (I mean in the unrefined state). I know as I have chewed coca before. Furthermore, the chewing of the leaves wards off intestinal parasites and helps maintain oral hygeine. I am sure there are those who abuse it, but those individuals exist within any society...just look at all the drunks in ours, but that does not mean the average western person is a drunk.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3156217 - 09/20/04 04:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

It is also worth noting that the training of a shaman is a complex process surrounded with ritual. This is as it should be. Don't let ethnocentrism cloud your judgement.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3156242 - 09/20/04 04:34 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

supremely selective logic

I could name a billion incidents of atrocities in urbanized societys as well, just as you could for tribal societies. The differance is that their is not one incidence of a tribal people directly causing mass species extinction, or the destruction of ireplacable ecosystems.
Both civilized and primitize people do nasty things, but only one of those groups threatens to destroy life on earth as we know it.

And, one example is not valid criteria for judging such a huge group


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3156472 - 09/20/04 05:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

But really, I don't see a lot of evidence out there to convince me that ancient tribal people living close to nature were any more peaceful or enlightened or anything. 




Tribal societies are in tune with their land.They live off of it and feed the land back in return.They appreciated the land,the animals,the plants...all life.Most societies viewed life as sacred,divine.They did not kill like we do.When we kill today its very thoughtless and wasteful.We disrepect the land,the animals,the plants...all that nature offers up to us.We have no respect for it and waste it.We steal resources and destroy the land.We take what was never ours.These people knew how harmful this was and would never dream of hurting the land or the earth in such a way.

The killing and waste production that goes on today in its many forms is so very vile.Yet...Most people dont seem to mind it.They are so far removed from nature.We treat land and most life on this earth like garbage.Expendable garbage at that.

We commit violence for petty reasons.We abuse one another greatly for fun or to make other sufer like we do.We kill over tiny things or over a few dollars.We disown family for tiny life choices that dont even affect us.We throw away people because society teaches everything is disposable and expendable.We are taught violence is ok within certain limits.We breed hatred,destruction,etc.

Our tribal ancestors were never like this.They were never so removed from nature especially true human nature.When they killed if they did it was for survival not greed or petty reasons like today.When they killed animals occasionally for food they utilized as much of it as they could out of respect for the divine life of the animal.Today we butcher animals by millions and dont care.Alot of it ends up as waste.They made the best of the land they had and gave back to it and enriched the soil.Today we rape the land of its fertility and then leave it barren and move on to new pieces of land.Sometimes we enrich it just enough to make money but when we are done we leave it barren anyway.Our ancestors never did this.They took care of the land.They respected it.

They didnt take to greed,hatred,etc.They shared resources and owned little to nothing.Most tribes shared everything and no one owned anything.This included the sharing of women in alot of societies.They know nothing of jealousy hatred and other such animalistic selfish desires. :sad:

Women were divine to many tribal societies and were well taken care of...today b/c of greed hatred jealousy etc 1 in 4 to 1 in 3 women get beat or have been beaten severely.

Today we spit on everything (figuratively) and respect nothing we should.

Our ancestors would be outraged at such desecration and I for one am very appalled and disgusted at societal behaviour.

I think that had in fact these societies remained instead of being lost like they are that the world and the environment especially would be a million times better off.

Once we were a proud people of this planet who live according to our true nature and the way we were intended to live.Now were a sad pathetic selfish people who are inhuman and cold and lifeless and have lost our way to the path we were intended to walk.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3156620 - 09/20/04 05:51 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Don't let ethnocentrism cloud your judgement.

Then what should we use to cloud our judgement?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Swami]
    #3156728 - 09/20/04 06:18 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You should let nothing cloud your judgement as much as you are able. This is hard to do for anyone. Anthropologists who study other cultures often warn against ethnocentrism (judging other cultures by the morals and mores of your culture) in order to gather empirical scientific data. If you let moral judgements cloud your interpretation you may just miss the point of the thing you are trying to study.

What?!! Your supposed to be on vacation!!! I thought I was safe here...did you come off vacation just to fuck with me???


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3157026 - 09/20/04 07:40 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

its a very selective kind of vacation, as ive noticed


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3157192 - 09/20/04 08:23 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

it depends on your prespective... if you look at trible colture you'd find some of the bad stuff that you find today but if you look at the individuals i think you'll see they had much more "life" then we do today...

i've been listening to alot of terance mekenna lately and he has this thing he keeps talking about... forward ascape!
no one expects humans to regress back to rural life becouse it can't be done! you'll have no means of feeding everyone and "progress" will be stopped... so you need something new to ascape to!
some big change in the way we live (which you don't see happening... some of the people here think there's a change coming on and maybe that change is this forward ascape... doing away with the crap in our societies and building on the good stuff who knows where that'll take us)

what everyone keeps talking about here is finding the balance betwine being human (which involves alot of things we've stopped doing and that's way you question these methods of "going back to our roots") and progressing in our society...
so it's not just going back... it's also moving farward but this time building on "solid" ground :smile:


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3157449 - 09/20/04 09:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tribal societies are in tune with their land.They live off of it and feed the land back in return.They appreciated the land,the animals,the plants...all life.




And that is why the wooly mammoth, the horse, the camel et al are now extinct from the American continents, as well as all Australian mammals larger than a nasty kangaroo. Er, what?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3157714 - 09/20/04 10:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

There is no doubt that ancient Native American societies had more respect for the land and the animals on it than our society does today. They realized that their survival depended upon nature and also realized the destructive nature of man. They had developed philosophies of life that viewed man as part of the cycle of nature and fully subject to it. They apologised to the souls of the animals they killed for food in order to show their recognition of the sacrifice that animal had made so that they may live. When they took wood from a tree for a bow they did it without killing the tree by chiseling the bow blank out of the side of the tree in such a way as to reduce the impact on the tree. In the Pacific North there are many still living trees that bear these marks. When they killed for food they wasted NOTHING and used every part of the animal. This was as much out of respect for nature as out of necessity. The extinction of the Ice Age mammals had little to do with hunting pressure from man and much to do with the climate shift that occured then. Your argument does not hold water in the face of what we know of anthropology and history. Ascribing the negative traits of your culture to a totally alien culture because you are ignorant of their ways is foolish and creates a historically inaccurate picture.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3157737 - 09/20/04 10:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"And that is why the wooly mammoth, the horse, the camel et al are now extinct from the American continents, as well as all Australian mammals larger than a nasty kangaroo. Er, what? '

um... are you suggesting that tribal hunter gatherer societies caused the extinciton of these animals? Id like to see some evidence of that.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Swami]
    #3157873 - 09/20/04 11:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Don't let ethnocentrism cloud your judgement.

Then what should we use to cloud our judgement?



Jack Daniels


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: silversoul7]
    #3158427 - 09/21/04 01:10 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the handy tip. :smile:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3158469 - 09/21/04 01:23 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

sure the natives had respect for the land, and we can learn a lot from them. 

at the same time, I remember reading about this tribe in peru who would go out to war and they would capture prisoners.  then they would have this ceremony where they would kill the prisoner, skin all the flesh off of the bone of their enemies, and dance around with their skeletons.

just like in every time, there is the good and the not so good :wink:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3158471 - 09/21/04 01:24 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3158496 - 09/21/04 01:29 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

double post..


Edited by Mixomatosis (09/21/04 01:31 AM)


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3158498 - 09/21/04 01:29 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

The killing and waste production that goes on today in its many forms is so very vile.
Blah blah I mentioned this above, we're gross we all know that's the prevailing point of view, this post is about changing our perspective a bit. Get ready, new ideas and information are about to be plugged into yoru fertile little brain.

are you suggesting that tribal hunter gatherer societies caused the extinciton of these animals?
()*&^()&^S FUCKIN YES HOLY SHIT ignorance alert!

Id like to see some evidence of that.
DUDE DUDE read a fucking book before you open your mouth! You know I'm a genius with a photographic memory and I'm impossible to beat in a debate right?? Start with The Future of Life by Edward Wilson (a top biologist and environmentalist and founder of the science known as conservation biology and coiner of such terms as biodiversity. Also 2 time pulitzer prize winning author). He'll lay it down for you. The short of it is that the megafauna of Africa were able to survive the emergence of homo sapien sapiens because they evolved alongside our hunting techniques. When H.S.S moved out of Africa we caused massive extinctions of the megafauna on every continent. 30 M long pythons of Australia, giant kangaroo, the American giant ground sloth, all kinds of big flightless birds. Go look it up.

So what have we learned so far? Stone-age primitive hunter gatherers were fully capable and willing to commit ecocide.

When they killed if they did it was for survival not greed or petty reasons like today.
Nope. They killed for the same reasons. Our modern techno-machine requires oil fields. We go and kill for it. In the paleolithic they needed hunting grounds, and they would kill for it. Hunter gatherers like the Haida and many throughout the Americas took slaves and wiped out rival tribes. Check books like One River by Wade Davis and read up on the natives of western BC. They killed for greed, accept it. I've visited sites in Nevada and Utah where natives built stone huts on cliff faces so they could fight off murderous cannibals. Read the book Man Corn for an extremely detailed account of this bloodthirsty practice complete with high-level archeological information.

the use of coca leaves by the people indiginous to the rain forests of South America is not a misuse of drugs
I never made that claim. And I never mentioned what I thought cocoa leaves were like compared to cocaine. Remember last round when I called you on your reading comprehension skills dozens of times in one thread?

When they killed for food they wasted NOTHING
Dude what the fuck you think hot dogs are? Choice cuts? Please don't buy their meats, but acknowledge that economic pressures are the same in the modern world and factory farms don't like waste either.

Women were divine to many tribal societies and were well taken care of
Not always. I've read lots about women being marginalized, controlled and opressed by primitive tribal people. By our modern cultural standards there is a lot of what we would call inequality going on in these cultures.

Now were a sad pathetic selfish people
Woah woah claw at your own flesh keep your demented self-hatred to yourself.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: ]
    #3158516 - 09/21/04 01:33 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You've got to be kidding me.
YOU'VE got to be kidding ME if you're going to actually say that you don't believe and have never read about native hunter gatherers causing mass extinction. I'm glad you're all learning at least ONE thing tonight.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3159025 - 09/21/04 07:40 AM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Stone-age primitive hunter gatherers were fully capable and willing to commit ecocide.





They hunted for animal for clothing,food,bone wepons and tools,etc.They didnt purposely hunt them into extinction.They hunted like they always did.A few species became extinct over hundreds of thousands of years.Compared to the dozens and dozens of species lost within the last 150 years.We are more ecocidal than anyother time in history.We are also responsible for killing more species by human intervention than any other time.

Quote:

Nope. They killed for the same reasons. Our modern techno-machine requires oil fields. We go and kill for it. In the paleolithic they needed hunting grounds, and they would kill for it. Hunter gatherers like the Haida and many throughout the Americas took slaves and wiped out rival tribes. Check books like One River by Wade Davis and read up on the natives of western BC. They killed for greed, accept it. I've visited sites in Nevada and Utah where natives built stone huts on cliff faces so they could fight off murderous cannibals. Read the book Man Corn for an extremely detailed account of this bloodthirsty practice complete with high-level archeological information.





Tribes rarely ever killed for hunting grounds.It wasnt common.Unlike today where we have had many major wars wiping out millions and millions in the last 150 years.People kill each other by the thousands daily over a few dollars or small objects.Cannibal tribes were very few and far in between.Most tribes were not cannibals and most cannibal tribes ate their ancestors and families who died.They did not generally kill in greed like we so commonly do daily.Killing for hunting grounds is not neccessarily out of greed.Survival is another reason they may have taken hunting grounds.

Quote:

Dude what the fuck you think hot dogs are? Choice cuts? Please don't buy their meats, but acknowledge that economic pressures are the same in the modern world and factory farms don't like waste either.





For one companies try not to waste out of economic greed.They want to maximize profits as much as possible.But in fact they do still create ALOT of animal waste.Tons of meat and animals each year goes to waste and they kill animals so mindlessly.They inject them full of hormones and slaughter them by the millions.Natives never disrespected animals by treating them in such a manner.They gave prayer and respect to each animal they took and were thankful for each life they took.They never took life lightly like we do.Natives took care of their animal brothers.

Quote:

Not always. I've read lots about women being marginalized, controlled and opressed by primitive tribal people. By our modern cultural standards there is a lot of what we would call inequality going on in these cultures.





Most often women were treated greatly.Were they equals?No.Not usually.But in alot of tribes there were some professions/skills only women could do.Such as in some tribal cultures only women became shaman and shaman were held in high esteem.In nearly all cultures women were highly respected as mothers.They recognized only women had the divine power to give birth to another being.

Quote:

Woah woah claw at your own flesh keep your demented self-hatred to yourself.




I have no self-hatred.I have hatred toward this society and what it has devolved to.In the last 50 years we have done more irreversible and general damage to this planet than ANY other time period and more than the entire 4 billion or so estimated years of existence of this planet.In 50 years we have managed to jeopardize the future of this planet and all its inhabitants.Something our native ancestors never did.They had great respect for mother earth.Today we mine her internal organs.We strip her of resources.We destroy the majority of forests.We slaughter animals in record numbers.We blacken the skies and poison our rivers.We are a parasite upon mother earth.Whats worst is we know better than any other time yet we do it anyway.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3159391 - 09/21/04 12:51 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

I'm impossible to beat in a debate
as i take no stand ;P heeh


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3160567 - 09/21/04 05:22 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

All I have to say at this moment is that the first post, and many of the subsequent posts in this thread are totally ignorant, racist, and fucking gross (not to mention lacking significant information and analysis.) It sure is fun to point and laugh at other cultures isn't it?


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3160741 - 09/21/04 05:50 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

I am afraid that this time you are in need of the ignorance alert. I have spent over 10 years studying the ways of tribal cultures, and while man by his very nature is destructive, primitive cultures had many habits that mitigated this damage. One such habit was being nomadic. Most primitive tribes follow migration routes which limits the damage that can be done in one place. Tribes that tend to be stationary are the ones who developed agriculture like the South Eastern American Indian tribes. Agriculture limits the damage wrought on the surrounding plant life. Agricultural tribes also tend not to have their hunting grounds nearby. They travel several days to their hunting areas at only certain times of the year. This allows time for a recovery in the animal population. Only casual hunting was done near the villages of these people. Most primitive peoples understood conservation well...their survival depended on it. If one studied the aborigines of Australia they would find that these people were nomadic as well and shared many of the same hunting characteristics to the nomadic tribes of North and South America. As I have already mentioned, these people tended to have philosophies of living that frowned on wasting life. Your statements about this are totally unfounded and based on popular myth created by those who wish to justify their own destructivness. I could go on for quite some time explaining the habits of primitive tribal people, but it would be pointless...so maybe it would be good for you to read a good book on the subject. Now I do not think that we are a sad pathetic people, but we can always learn from our forefathers.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/21/04 09:16 PM)


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3161660 - 09/21/04 09:15 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

I would never hesitate to generalize that the stone-age hunter gatherer way of life is harmonious in that it's sustainable over the extremely long-term. There's no doubt about that. What makes me lift my eyebrows and cough up hairballs are statements like "Tribal people never hunted animals to extinction" or "Tribal people were always really peaceful."

Give our species' diversity some credit! I'm not claiming that tribal people are destructive and evil as a rule, I'm simply fleshing out their character and humanizing them with some information that pokes holes in the above blanket generalizations.

Through my own research I've been only impressed with the symbiosis they share with their environments.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3161690 - 09/21/04 09:21 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

No they are not peaceful, but neither is the nature of man. We are warlike animals. As far as hunting animals to extinction...I don't think they had the technology even if they had wanted to. The Mammoths were victims of climate change I believe, and the Buffalo were killed out by a combination of several bad winters and the rise of guns across the plains of the southwest


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3161716 - 09/21/04 09:23 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

Oh, Niamnhyx, don't get all flustered. There's nary a teet of racism runnin' about here. In my first post I chose to share some especially repulsive aspects of a specific culture who share a place among the most revered people in new age circles and on this board: The Stone-age tribal hunter gatherer society. It's simply a "hey, look, seems like generalizations have failed to accurately describe people yet again!"

Now let's all go home and add a few dimensions to our perception of tribal people and thereby our species in general. Isn't this a fun excercise?


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3161886 - 09/21/04 09:50 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

No they are not peaceful, but neither is the nature of man. We are warlike animals.
Yeah, that's basically the point I was trying to make.

As far as hunting animals to extinction...I don't think they had the technology even if they had wanted to.
I've come across extensive descriptions of the mass extinctions that followed our species' migration outside of Africa by Edward Wilson and Jared Diamond.. on page 42 of Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel he lists:

giant kangaroos
rhinolike marsupials called diprotodonts
cow-size marsupial "lepeoards"
400 pound flightless bird
one-ton lizard
giant pythons
land crocodiles

as some of the species that dissapeared from the australian continent in very short amount of time just after the first humans migrated there. There's a story like this on all the continents that didn't have protohomonids running around before modern humans showed up. Our hunting skills were too good and the animals didn't get a chance to wisen up to our ways before we killed them off in what Diamond describes as an "extinction spasm."


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3162278 - 09/21/04 10:51 PM (17 years, 30 days ago)

damn i would have liked to live to see the one ton lizard and the land crocodile.

Apparently whales once walked bipedally too, before the ascent of homo habilus forced them to adapt to oceanic life. The blue whale used to be called 'the great strider' by south-korean eskimo hunters.


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OfflineBanJankri
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Frog]
    #3162708 - 09/22/04 12:23 AM (17 years, 30 days ago)


Its good thing for us to know that they were wrong? that we wouldnt do the same shit?

what are you talking about. The shit that is going on around the world in our modern societies, are you guys blind? do you call this era we are living in enlightened? and you think we have progressed so much that you can just write topics asking whether shamanic societies are fucked up? not being able to learn what ethnocentrism is and trying to evaluate the cultures with your "modern" worldview? trying to compare species loss in the primitive era and now? the negative effects of human beings on nature, in the past and now?

just dont forget one thing. in the past, humans respected nature. they had learned to live in harmony with it. This was changed when various tools were invented, and when humans tried to overcome nature and control it, use it in an arrogant way.

just dont forget a quote from aldo leopold.
"We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."

it isnt hard to guess which approach modern societies tend to favor is it?

RESPECT


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3163736 - 09/22/04 08:23 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

i think the actual question is stupid...
when people say we should give up everything and go back to the basic stuff i dont think they mean regress back to trible society!!!
it means be more human and less bullshit!

trible people had the use of their body AND mind (all we have is our mind and our money... too many people forgot about the use of their body) of course there's no way to go back to that kind of situation... but we have to give up all the bullshit and build from there other wise we'll crumble...


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: BanJankri]
    #3164217 - 09/22/04 12:31 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

they had learned to live in harmony with it.
A few posts above I agreed with this exact statement. My only point was to bring up a few points that blew statements like "primitive indigineous people were perfect." This is not a difficult excercise but it is surprising to discover how few people are unaware of the mass extinctions caused by our primitive ancestors, for example.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3165166 - 09/22/04 04:18 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

"In my first post I chose to share some especially repulsive aspects of a specific culture who share a place among the most revered people in new age circles and on this board"

I agree, I think that new age, trend oriented thought is becoming an acceptable replacement for true spiritual growth. Many of these folk try to see primitive people as stargazing new agers. I think that this robs them of their culture as surely as clearing their forests. There are very few primitive tribes left in the world. In the Amazon rain forest new age tourists have contributed heavily to the degradation of many primitive cultures by forcing them to accept a tourist economy dependant on the selling of souvenirs and "shamans" have become a dime a dozen to administer ayahuasca to the upscale new age visitors looking to have a "vision quest".


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3165230 - 09/22/04 04:31 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

I agree, I think that new age, trend oriented thought is becoming an acceptable replacement for true spiritual growth. Many of these folk try to see primitive people as stargazing new agers. I think that this robs them of their culture as surely as clearing their forests. There are very few primitive tribes left in the world. In the Amazon rain forest new age tourists have contributed heavily to the degradation of many primitive cultures by forcing them to accept a tourist economy dependant on the selling of souvenirs and "shamans" have become a dime a dozen to administer ayahuasca to the upscale new age visitors looking to have a "vision quest". 




I think that remaining tribal cultures should be preserved and not changed or corrupted in any way.A large problem especially among south american tribes is the fact that more modern cultures tell and convey ideas to the young tribal people that their shamans/medicine men are worthless and their way is outdated and also worthless.They teach them that modern medicine is great and their medicine and ways are not.They corrupt these tribes heavily destroying their culture.They also sometimes give them modern food and other heavily refined items causing them to abandon their local food sometimes and causing them to grow fat.The pima indians are an example of a culture of obese tribal people as a result of being introduced to modern heavily refined foods.

What is also very alarming is how white tourists visit these tribal people then steal their relics,statues,religious items and mass produce them and they remain ignorant of their true meaning while making thousands to millions off these tribal people and giving them nothing.They constantly steal from these people.In south america there is also a huge problem with oil companies invading their land and stealing oil and destroying land and poisoning rivers with petroleum runoff.It embeds in the sediment and the river looks clean but if you poke the bottom huge clouds of crude oil fill the area of the river.These people are also gaining many afflictions and diseases due to exposure to toxic petroleum products and crude oil.

Our people today, (and by our people I mean the entire world) have become very money hungry and driven by greed and now these cultures are paying the price. :sad: :sad: :sad:


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3166068 - 09/22/04 07:42 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)


"What is also very alarming is how white tourists visit these tribal people then steal their relics,statues,religious items and mass produce them and they remain ignorant of their true meaning while making thousands to millions off these tribal people and giving them nothing.They constantly steal from these people.In south america there is also a huge problem with oil companies invading their land and stealing oil and destroying land and poisoning rivers with petroleum runoff.It embeds in the sediment and the river looks clean but if you poke the bottom huge clouds of crude oil fill the area of the river.These people are also gaining many afflictions and diseases due to exposure to toxic petroleum products and crude oil.
"

i agree that this is one of the most sever tragedies in the world today. My first goal after i finish school is to trael through central and south america, visiting the rainforest and tribal cultures. My plan is to learn as much as i can in a non judgmental, non invasive way so that some of their knowledge and memory can at least be preserved.
I suspect hue would call me a new age defiler of tribal purity because i intend to locate a shaman/ medicine man in the hopes of undertaking shamanic initiation and education (and take psychotropics)


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3166148 - 09/22/04 08:01 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

That is correct...unless you have a degree in anthropology who is interested in studying them as an anthropologist. Any of the psychotropics they employ are mostly easy to obtain and legal. Information on how to use them is very available...just look on this forum and you will find an expert on whatever you are interested in. I myself have used ayahuasca, prepared by myself in a traditional manner, on over a dozen occasions, and the same goes for cimora. There is no reason to travel to the rainforest to get that. Sadly, though, there are few truely primitive cultures left there that are not in remote locations and hostile to young new agers. The "shamans" are plentiful though, you'll find as many as you can afford. Tourism has created a cultural genocide as it brings money into the equation. When money comes in television and automobiles follow, but go if you must, I really doubt that there is a legitimate shaman there who will have dealings with a white man. You would have better luck with the Native Americans of the southwest as many young Native Americans are not interested in learning the spiritual traditions. The Native American Church would be a good starting point.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3166305 - 09/22/04 08:38 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

it is not the psychotropics themselves that i am interested in so much as getting the cultural wisdom and context in which these drugs were traditionally done. I feel it would be a waste to do those drugs without a teacher to fit the experience into some meaningfull ccontext...


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3166641 - 09/22/04 09:57 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

" while making thousands to millions off these tribal people and giving them nothing."



should they want anything? should they want money?


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Todcasil]
    #3166855 - 09/22/04 10:39 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Whether they should ant anything is irrelevant.It isnt right to exploit cultures especially against the wishes of these tribes and cheapening their sacred objects to nothing more than "cool" decor.

It is a major desecration.It would be like taking the american flag that most americans hold dear t them and publicly pissing all over it and slander america.This is in essence what these people are doing to these tribal people except on a mass scale.

Some of these tribes Im sure do want money as compensation at the least b/c some tribes are struggling very badly due to a number of reasons.However I cannot and will not speak for another tribe or culture.

Alot of american companies and people lie to tribal people and cultures offering better health care and education and the younger members fall for these promises but in the end they never deliver.Once they have what they want they leave.Leaving the habitat ruined or cheapening scared items and leaving them with nothing in return on top of it.

All these companies care about is making money.They could care less that many tribes were forced from their homes due to destruction of habitat,pollution,too much noise,etc.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3166923 - 09/22/04 10:53 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

I agree with Hue. on this one.Traditional,serious real shaman dont normally deal with outsiders period.Often times they wont even deal with outsiders even if they are of the same nationality/tribe/culture as they are. It takes alot to gain the approval/respect of the shaman and is near impossible to do.These tribes especially do not trust the white man because most of them have been ripped off and badly exploited by white people promising illusions of grandeur and giving them nothing after all is said and done.

To visit these tribes and promote their culture among their youth is good but its doubtful most tribes will let you be that involved in their culture/tribe.There are a few programs that reward/encourage some tribes youth to seek to be a shaman/medicine man.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3167528 - 09/23/04 12:19 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

This "cultural wisdom" is often culture specific too.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3168335 - 09/23/04 02:51 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

"This "cultural wisdom" is often culture specific too. "

what does that mean?


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3168348 - 09/23/04 02:55 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Cultural specific wisdom means it really only has relevance to that culture.For example,An example of cultural specific wisdom would be learning how to use local flora to heal,things relating to their way of life and/or religion/spirituality and history/folklore etc.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3168401 - 09/23/04 03:06 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

They hunted for animal for clothing,food,bone wepons and tools,etc.They didnt purposely hunt them into extinction.They hunted like they always did.A few species became extinct over hundreds of thousands of years.Compared to the dozens and dozens of species lost within the last 150 years.We are more ecocidal than anyother time in history.We are also responsible for killing more species by human intervention than any other time.





Yes, but their extinction is not OUR intent, either.

I mean, I've never heard anyone say "Fawkin whales! Ill be glad when those bastards are gone yarr!"

Early humans can and did hunt large mammals on all continents to extinction, with the exception really of Africa -- where the large mammals will either eat you or trample you. Most large African animals are also completely unfit to ever consider being domesticated, I would say due to many thousands of years of having to put up with us.

They didn't know what their actions would do. We do, and still don't always act to prevent them.. but we're starting to!

On one hand, innocence through ignorance.. and the other, guilt through imperfection.

Give us some credit. We're just children, really. The knowledge of exinction, while ancient by our estimates, is relatively new all considered... we'll adjust, we'll get better, and eventually you won't be able to compare us to an ancient society to our detriment -- we will both know AND act.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3168481 - 09/23/04 03:29 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Yes, but their extinction is not OUR intent, either.

I mean, I've never heard anyone say "Fawkin whales! Ill be glad when those bastards are gone yarr!"





No perhaps not bent on their extinction.However,these people who hunnt whales KNOW exactly what theyre doing is not only illegal in most if not all places but it is also killing off whales to such an extent they may soon become extinct.They know exactly what their actions are causing and do it anyway because whale meat can go for a pretty penny a pound.I think its like 100 dollars per pound of edible meat.

Quote:

Early humans can and did hunt large mammals on all continents to extinction, with the exception really of Africa -- where the large mammals will either eat you or trample you. Most large African animals are also completely unfit to ever consider being domesticated, I would say due to many thousands of years of having to put up with us.





Very few species became extinct due to hunting but we cannot say for sure that it was purely hunting that killed some of these species off.Climate changes or other factors could have lent a hand.In the last 150 years or so we have killed off more than a few species.Not to mention all the fungi/plants lost especially in the rainforests.

Everyday more and more species become endangered or closer to it.We all know what were doing but many of us do so anyway out of lack of care or for the money.


Few species are/were lost accidentally.Most know especially nowadays what theyre doing to populations.Some deny it others dont care.Big companies are responsible for alot of eco related damage.

Quote:

Give us some credit. We're just children, really. The knowledge of exinction, while ancient by our estimates, is relatively new all considered... we'll adjust, we'll get better, and eventually you won't be able to compare us to an ancient society to our detriment -- we will both know AND act.




As far as time on this earth we're not children.As far as our current way of life.Settled and contained societies that are stationary and evolved.Its fairly new I suppose.

Science which is the leading cause of problem is really new.Maybe the last 100 to 150 years really.Although it started with Alchemy long before that.In the last 50 years tho technology and science grows so quickly that we are churning out chemical after chemical and item after item without knowing what theyw ill do to us or the environment.This is foolish and ignorant in my opinion.We need full research and long term analysis before it goes public not decades after.This is why many things especially medical things are recalled or shown to have deleterious effects.

We need awareness the most these days.Especially ecological awareness before there isnt much of one left to worry about.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3168940 - 09/23/04 07:11 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

It means that it lacks validity outside of the native culture.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3168964 - 09/23/04 07:29 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

we fucked !
not they
we dropped the ball...


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3169058 - 09/23/04 08:57 AM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly

The image is gripping: a handsome American Indian with a sad, tear-filled eye offers the simple message, "Pollution: It's a Crying Shame." This 1970s anti-pollution advertisement, which reached millions of people, helped entrench the notion that Indians treated the land kindly and white invaders spoiled it. Not so, says anthropologist Krech, in this compelling, if somewhat incomplete, examination of the historical truths and romantic myths about Native Americans and their relationship with nature. Acknowledging that Indians clearly possessed vast knowledge of their environment, Krech contends that this knowledge was often merged with a religious cosmogony that left little room for conservation as it is understood today. Indians may have treated the individual animals upon which they preyed with great respect in order to avoid offending their spirits, but this view did not prevent occasional overhunting or depletion of resources, according to Krech. If the New World seemed like a rich Eden to European immigrants, Krech contends it was because the populations of Native Americans were too small to have made much of a difference in their environments before they were overtaken by the newcomers' resource-based economy. To prove his points, Krech closely examines the role Native Americans played in a variety of environmental histories, from Pleistocene extinctions to the demise of the buffalo. Yet he overlooks what was one of the greatest single animal-based economies of precontact times, the vast subsistence salmon fisheries of western North America. (Aug.)
Copyright 1999 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.


From Library Journal
A popular question of debate has centered on the Native American relationship to the environment. Were they the first environmentalists, conservationists who neither wasted nor altered their natural resources? Krech (anthropology, Brown Univ.) addresses this cherished American myth by reviewing archaeological, oral, and written records and applying them to a few specific cases. The Native Americans, like all peoples, altered their environments, responded to climatic changes, adjusted to times of... read more

Book Description

The idea of the Native American living in perfect harmony with nature is one of the most cherished contemporary myths. But how truthful is this larger-than-life image? According to anthropologist Shepard Krech, the first humans in North America demonstrated all of the intelligence, self-interest, flexibility, and ability to make mistakes of human beings anywhere. As Nicholas Lemann put it in The New Yorker, "Krech is more than just a conventional-wisdom overturner; he has a serious larger point to make. . . . Concepts like ecology, waste, preservation, and even the natural (as distinct from human) world are entirely anachronistic when applied to Indians in the days before the European settlement of North America."


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: butterflydawn]
    #3169060 - 09/23/04 08:58 AM (17 years, 28 days ago)

A recent study, "Wild in the Woods: The Myth of the Noble Eco-Savage" by Robert Whelan (London: Institute of Economic Affairs, 1999), documents the many ways in which pre-Columbian man absolutely ravaged his environment.

For starters, Native Americans were big forest burners. Indeed, before the white man came to this hemisphere there was virtually no virgin forest because it had all repeatedly been burned. The reason is simple. Forests had almost no value to Native Americans and interfered with hunting. Says Whelan, "The species which the Indians most wanted to hunt, like bison, moose, elk and deer, are found most easily in areas of recently burnt forest, which is why they burnt the forests over and over again."

Moreover, Native Americans often burned forests simply for fun. The great American explorers Lewis and Clark recorded that Indians in the Rocky Mountains would set trees on fire "as after-dinner entertainment; the huge trees would explode like Roman candles in the night."

When hunting, Native Americans were not shy about using extremely brutal methods, with no concern whatsoever for sportsmanship. A favorite buffalo hunting technique was to stampede huge herds of them over cliffs. Many such Buffalo jump sites have been found in the West, some with remains of as many as 300,000 buffalo.

Furthermore, Native Americans often hunted animals into extinction. Among those that disappeared due to Native American over-hunting are the woolly mammoth, saber-toothed tiger, giant sloth, giant beaver, camel, horse, two-toed horse and dire wolf, according to environmental writer Alston Chase. Australian Aborigines and the Maoris of New Zealand were also responsible for hunting numerous species into extinction long before white men arrived on the scene.

Such extinctions are unsurprising given the Native Americans' utter disregard for conservation. For example, they hunted prime age female animals most heavily, because they had greater stores of fat and better hides.

Native religious ceremonies also contributed to extinctions. Women of the Crow Tribe wore dresses decorated with the teeth of 350 elk. In Hawaii, natives made beautiful capes from the feathers of as many as 80,000 birds, some of which became extinct in the process.

Finally, it should be noted that Native Americans didn't treat the earth any better than they treated the wildlife. Soil erosion was common long before white settlements were established. When the land became exhausted, Native Americans simply moved on. The idea that they treated the land with special reverence simply has no basis outside the imaginations of gullible utopians.

The truth is that in many ways we treat the land better today than pre-Columbian man did, are better conservationists and stewards of the environment. Earth Day enthusiasts should cease celebrating an Eden that never was.

Source: Bruce Bartlett, senior fellow, National Center for Policy Analysis, April 19, 2000.


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Gomp]
    #3169862 - 09/23/04 02:22 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
I'm impossible to beat in a debate
as i take no stand ;P heeh




Then you were never in a debate  :smirk:


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NariusFractal]
    #3169909 - 09/23/04 02:32 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Mixamatosis, id like you to pay close attention to swami's last posts (the articles) as they demonstrate the appropraite, intelligent, mature response to a question like "id like to see some evidence of that"

Heres how it goes: me: id like to see some evidence of that
Swami: ok heres some evidence

:thumbup:


compare to your response, which reminds me of trying to debate with a methemphetamine addict

Me: are you suggesting that tribal hunter gatherer societies caused the extinciton of these animals?

You: ()*&^()&^S FUCKIN YES HOLY SHIT ignorance alert!


DUDE DUDE read a fucking book before you open your mouth! You know I'm a genius with a photographic memory and I'm impossible to beat in a debate right??

:thumbdown:


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3170043 - 09/23/04 03:06 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

compare to your response, which reminds me of trying to debate with a methemphetamine addict

Me: are you suggesting that tribal hunter gatherer societies caused the extinciton of these animals?

You: ()*&^()&^S FUCKIN YES HOLY SHIT ignorance alert!


DUDE DUDE read a fucking book before you open your mouth! You know I'm a genius with a photographic memory and I'm impossible to beat in a debate right??





:lol: :lol: :lol:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3170051 - 09/23/04 03:08 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

"Cultural specific wisdom means it really only has relevance to that culture.For example,An example of cultural specific wisdom would be learning how to use local flora to heal,things relating to their way of life and/or religion/spirituality and history/folklore etc. "

I dont think their is any wisdom that is truly culturally exclusive. When you get beyond the myths and symbols, the true 'meat' of any teaching is applicable on a universal level. I mean stuff like local flora and fauna is obvious, because in todays world their is no such thing really, we use medicines from all over the world. And any myth or legend contains messages that address universal human questions.

Basically i dont think their is any culture so alien from us that we cannot make use of their wisdom and ideas in our own life. Check out my shamanism thread.

Im especially interested in how HUE reconciles his belief that wisdom from primitive tribes is meaninfless outside of the cultural context with his assertion that he studies and practices shamanism. Isnt that contradictory?


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Swami]
    #3171083 - 09/23/04 07:33 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Yes, this is true...we now know that forest fires are better controlled by having controlled burns in the forest. Our Native American ancestors knew this as well. It also stops undergrowth and allows the trees and animals to flourish. Very good point.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3171410 - 09/23/04 08:37 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

"I dont think their is any wisdom that is truly culturally exclusive"

In many native societies when people get too old to care for themselves they go off into the wilderness to die so they won't burden their tribe with the care. This is out of necessity for the tribe's survival. So, are you booting your old granny out into the woods and telling her to go off and die so you don't got to bother with her? That is just one example. I could go on, but it would be better for you to learn something of the lifestyles of such people.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3172336 - 09/23/04 11:20 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

yeah i know what you mean some of their wisdom isnt needed for my situation, but i think much of it is thats all. As long as your not saying western society cant learn from tribal cultures


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3172547 - 09/23/04 11:50 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

We can learn much from tribal societies, just not all of their wisdom is applicable. Western societies have wisdom that is applicable nowhere else as well, and much wisdom has yet to be discovered.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3176890 - 09/24/04 11:29 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Mixamatosis, id like you to pay close attention to swami's last posts
Touche

Moonshoe: Like hue points out there are a million people with the same plan as yours, and thousands of south americans who've realized the market for their abilities. I have a friend who lived down there for a year in an Ecuadorian village in the jungle, and my impression talking with him about it is that these people's practices are mostly inaccessible to us as people from another culture, and once you leave the jungle you've learned all these skills in, what then? You can't make ayahuasca with cedar trees.

I find it interesting that what you're interested in is the cultural context of these plants, that you think that's the gem, because I see it as the complete opposite. What can we do with their plants working within our paradigms?

I'm reading Wade Davis' One River right now. I can't believe I never read it earlier. I think you'


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3176891 - 09/24/04 11:29 PM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Mixamatosis, id like you to pay close attention to swami's last posts
Touche

Moonshoe: Like hue points out there are a million people with the same plan as yours, and thousands of south americans who've realized the market for their abilities. I have a friend who lived down there for a year in an Ecuadorian village in the jungle, and my impression talking with him about it is that these people's practices are mostly inaccessible to us as people from another culture, and once you leave the jungle you've learned all these skills in, what then? You can't make ayahuasca with cedar trees.

I find it interesting that what you're interested in is the cultural context of these plants, that you think that's the gem, because I see it as the complete opposite. What can we do with their plants working within our paradigms?

I'm reading Wade Davis' One River right now. I can't believe I never read it earlier. I think you'd probably find it pretty inspiring.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3177796 - 09/25/04 03:18 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Humans always have been and always will be simply humans. I'm an anti-civilization anarchist but I'm no utopian and not one to blindly glorify any culture or style of living. However, that being said, I recognize that *in general* a hunter gatherer lifestyle is the only truly sustainable lifestyle that has every existed. Perhaps light agrarianism following permaculture principles is another option. What we have right now certainly isn't. Civilization is a death march, built from the pathology of some very hurt creatures. Our way of life is totally fucked up and that is undeniable, just as it is undeniable to say that a primitive tribal lifestyle is a lot more conducive to living in harmony with the earth, giving as much as you take and paying attention to the cycles of earth. Primitive folk don't have the illusions and distractions we do to prevent them from listening to the land and really harmonizing thier communities and themselves with the cycles of thier bioregions.

I am not idolizing primitive culture. I also must point out that there were and are many many different primitive cultures out there and that every single one is unique. Many are violent, violence is not inherently evil, and its validity completely depends upon context. No community will ever exist without conflict and violence, however we certainly can learn far better methods to deal with these issues as they arise than we currently have.

I have to say that I really appreciate what Huehuecoyotl and unenlightenedone have to say. It's refreshing to not be the only one to defend primitive cultures from the ignorance of civilized and anthropocentric wordviews.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3178477 - 09/25/04 11:29 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

oh obviously, and that is another part of why i think visiting these tribes is so important, i could learn some valuable survival skills for post apocolypse living.

And yeah mixamatosis i must backtrack and say i lied its really the psychadelic experience i want, but the shamans there know how to prepare and administer the dose, how to direct the trip for maximum meaning and awe, how to guide you back down and administer an antidote if nescessary, and then after to help explain the meaning of the visions for you. In addition doing something like wasca in its native rainforest would be incredible as opposed to just doing it in my living room after getting it off the internet.

Thats what i meant by valuing the cultural context.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3178678 - 09/25/04 01:20 PM (17 years, 26 days ago)

The TSAR BOMBA

was a 50-Mt hydrogen bomb equivalent to 100 billion pounds of TNT and actually was detonated by the USSR.
The sonic boom circled the earth three times in the upper atmosphere, at 60 miles distance it would burn the jeans off of your ass and due to unusual weather conditions it threw people to the ground at 90 miles distance.
This baby, for the 1/1.000.000 of a second it lasted, kicked out with one percent of solar output which is a friggin lot :shocked:

Clean as it was (97% fusion 3% fission) many scientists kept sucking by insisting that every Megaton of an atmospheric test would cause 50.000 deaths due to fallout cancers in the years to come the USA and USSR just kept on lighting these fuckers like there was no tomorrow.

The Hydrogen bomb you see being dropped on the above pic was, is, and will go on causing cancers.
Approximately 2.500.000 people will die because of Tsar Bomba cancers, and many more for all its Megaton brothers and their little Kiloton babies.
And the USA, and the USSR, knew this, but they had to show their gonads nontheless and dispatch millions to an early grave to remain in office.

Name one sane tribal chieftain who would send two and a half million completely random people of all tribes to the grave just to show off their gonads.
And these chieftains are elected by 50 people, not 50 million.
If you have a CRT screen: 2.5 Megadeath is a grave on every pixel of five of your screens. THAT is what they did.


In the Africa of old you had a myriad of villages, no big cities, just many many small tribes. In most of Africa most of the time tribal war was a social event where you stood at 100 paces and hurled spears and insults at each other. It was a nice standoff and when night fell they went home and the shaman got his hands dirty plugging up wounds with chewed-up medicinal leaves, chanting incantations for the equally important spiritual healing.
Sure there were godawful bloody atrocities too, but most tribes were far more relaxed even in wartime.

Throughout history mass murder has always been associated with mass culture. If you look at the Rwandan situation with the Hutu's and the Tutsi's its plain and simple: The tribes are just too fucking big (mass culture) and critical mass was achieved in the (modern) cities and flashed over to the countryside where shit got really nasty.

If somebody decides to suck in a stable peaceful tribal situation you give some shoves and punches and thats it. They don't run to a car packed with Glocks and Uzis to exact revenge, at most you'll wake up the other morning to find out your goat is missing  :wink:

Please explain an African pygmy tribesman what your tribe means when they speak of "putting someone on the chair" and how a gang of tribesmen stand outside cheering and holding up signs that say Fry! Burn in Hell!
Hmm.. he'll smile just as friendly but you'll also notice he'll gradually put some distance between you two..

On the other hand, take this example:
Tribesmen walk around casually wielding spears with razorsharp blades or fire-hardened points at the least. And thats normal. You ask directions and with a friendly gesture they're pointed out for you with a 15-inch dagger.
Casual.

Imagine walking through your city where guys walk by resting a kalashnikov machine gun over their shoulder, finger on trigger, or getting pointed the way to the Mc Donalds by a gesture of a Glock or that pretty thing D33P shows off  :smile:
Would you feel as comfortable?

I think not. Losing touch with nature means that you throw firecrackers with two metric tons of nuclear fuel, you completely freak at the sight of an armed man and the thing is you are probably right in doing so.

Western society doesnt just up the scale of atrocities but it also has an unusually high atrocity-count.

If you are closer to nature you are more likely to see the downsides of hostility, thus more peaceful, thus more enlightened.
Unfortunately atrocities are human traits, but our urbanized mass cultures have a way of breeding them like eggs in a hatchery.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3181552 - 09/26/04 02:55 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

"i think visiting these tribes is so important, i could learn some valuable survival skills for post apocolypse living."

Get real. I can make a bow and a string and arrows with stone tools that I made myself. I can even spin the thread for the string with a wooden drop-spindle using plant fibers (thistle is great...hemp is better). I am a dead shot with a wooden bow. I can identify edible plants (and mushrooms), track animals through the woods, set hand made traps like snares and deadfalls, and even build primitive shelters on the fly. I learned all of this in the woods of my home state of Kentucky. I took the time because shamanism requires a deep spiritual connection with nature. In the rainforest you would not learn anything that you cannot teach yourself...but no skilled person there would teach some spoiled Canadian (or American) anyway.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Asante]
    #3181554 - 09/26/04 02:56 AM (17 years, 26 days ago)

Good point.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Asante]
    #3182566 - 09/26/04 03:13 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Name one sane tribal chieftain who would send two and a half million completely random people of all tribes to the grave just to show off their gonads.
Show me one who's capable of it.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3182586 - 09/26/04 03:18 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

:blah:


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3182980 - 09/26/04 05:22 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:


Name one sane tribal chieftain who would send two and a half million completely random people of all tribes to the grave just to show off their gonads.
MIXOMATOSIS SAID:
Show me one who's capable of it.





How about systematically burning down the rainforest where all the tribes, including their own, live in one giant blaze?
We have the scientific knowledge Planet Mars is 3 million kilometers away, totally barren and hostile to life, and yet we set the entire world ablaze and dance on the ashes of the defenseless.

Chieftains are perfectly capable to destroy the "entire world" but they just dont do it, nor will their warriors comply in an apocalypse.

Watch a genuine apocalypse right here:



This is what happened when a religious group wants to revert to becoming a Tribe again.
The true Tribes of Guyana were at a total loss to understand WTF happened there.

We lost something when we left Mother Nature behind, my brethren, and its futile to think we've regained it when we're surronded by greens for a weekend.

You've got the corporate guy that basically thinks: "screw Nature"
...and yet it provided him with all he ever was or will be.

Then you got the hippy that exclaims: "Mother Nature is beauuutiful!"
...Get back to me on that when you snapped your leg and theres sand all over the bone that's sticking out.

We can only think up a simplified relationship with Nature... or we can actually invest time and effort into actually building one.

But the chieftain would not destroy the entire world, his warriors would refuse those orders, and yet for most its a matter-of-factly non-issue after we turn 20 or so.
Whom of you actually cried physical tears when you saw city-block sized mushroomclouds boiling over downtown Baghdad on CNN?
I think more of us yawned then cried.
Who "does charities" on a daily basis?

When we left that jungle we left part of our humanity behind and that down-to-earth unity of mind, body and spirit.
Ofcourse many tribesmen are assholes, but mass society, particularly the western-city type, is simply off the scale.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Asante]
    #3183339 - 09/26/04 07:23 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Chieftains are perfectly capable to destroy the "entire world"
Seems like stone-headed arrows aren't too good at leveling mountains and flattening cities. Care to explain what you mean?

We lost something
"something" eh? Of course that's hard to disagree with, of course we lost "something," but I'm afraid your method to produce an unassailable argument has resulted in complete meaninglesness. My question is: What are you trying to say?

But the chieftain would not destroy the entire world
No leader of an industrialized western nation would either, not in the sense that he'd push the "destroy everything" button.

Ofcourse many tribesmen are assholes, but mass society, particularly the western-city type, is simply off the scale.
Certainly lots of tribesmen are assholes, and what you call "mass society" is simply lots of tribesmen with powerful technology packed into tight quarters. What are you trying to say?


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3183461 - 09/26/04 08:15 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

***Chieftains are perfectly capable to destroy the "entire world"
Seems like stone-headed arrows aren't too good at leveling mountains and flattening cities. Care to explain what you mean?***

the " " around "entire world" refer to burning the rainforest which to their knowledge constitutes the "entire world"



***but I'm afraid your method to produce an unassailable argument has resulted in complete meaninglesness.***

Have no fear I have become silly: it is just you who has lost my line of reasoning :smirk:



***We lost something
"something" eh? Of course that's hard to disagree with, of course we lost "something," (...)My question is: What are you trying to say?***

We lost the connection to the down-to-earth truth that if third world kids live wretched lives to stitch your tennis shoes together that this means third world kids live wretched lives to stitch your tennis shoes together.
We know about the atrocities yet we do dick about them. Many tribes have no word for "should": you either do something or you don't.
We pass unknown people on the street as casually as tribesmen would pass trees in the forest. In the forest, each unknown person equals an elaborate meeting and greeting that starts with assessing whether you are not an ape or other animal and can end with you two blowing DMT snuff in eachothers nose. Most kids think passing a dutchie is a filthy thing nowadays, we lost that one since the 1960s.


***But the chieftain would not destroy the entire world
No leader of an industrialized western nation would either, not in the sense that he'd push the "destroy everything" button.***
All our chieftains know full well that our "modern consumption society" is destroying the world entirely. Attempts are made to patch the world up to only fall apart after our (politicians) departure. We as a society follow The Way of the Yen.

The Way of the Yen dictates that first world arms factories create landmines for the third world that specifically take feet off above the ankle instead of mercyfully kill in a $ 0.10 larger blast. The Way of the Yen dictates that our first world arms merchants are selling machineguns that are made to 2/3 of full size especially for third world child soldiers that haven't graduated to a fullsize Khalash yet. Wouldn't you say we kinda lost some harmony here?



***what you call "mass society" is simply lots of tribesmen with powerful technology packed into tight quarters. What are you trying to say? ***
This is the crying truth. We no longer are Tribesmen. We are the human animal who's social structure of group animal has slacked by the anonymity of mass society.

We are NOT Tribesmen. The Tribe was stolen from us. We are anonymous humans in an amorphous supertribe that most certainly lacks Tribal Unity. Do you feel One People with all you meet in your city or country? Nope. We are a bunch of captains on a ship full of steering wheels. Because we are anonymous in living groups over 50 or so we think we can get away with anything.
Like giving young children kidsized weapons to make the heads of their elders explode. Like dropping a bomb in peacetime that kills 2.5 million people just to show off gonads.

The big picture has become so huge we all lost it.
What we lost is harmony.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Asante]
    #3183739 - 09/26/04 10:01 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

We pass unknown people on the street as casually as tribesmen would pass trees in the forest. In the forest, each unknown person equals an elaborate meeting and greeting that starts with assessing whether you are not an ape or other animal and can end with you two blowing DMT snuff in eachothers nose





Right.
If we tried that our entire lives would be devoted to simply meeting people.
That's preposterous.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3184177 - 09/26/04 11:50 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

"Get real. I can make a bow and a string and arrows with stone tools that I made myself. I can even spin the thread for the string with a wooden drop-spindle using plant fibers (thistle is great...hemp is better). I am a dead shot with a wooden bow. I can identify edible plants (and mushrooms), track animals through the woods, set hand made traps like snares and deadfalls, and even build primitive shelters on the fly. I learned all of this in the woods of my home state of Kentucky. "

Wow huehue! you are so skilled and woodsy! You can do all kinds of nifty things that i cant. The question remains, though, of what the hell that has to do with me or my desire to learn the wisdom of a vanishing people that represent the vast majority of human history on earth?

"In the rainforest you would not learn anything that you cannot teach yourself..."

i disagree. I would never be able to 'teach myself' how to carve flint arrowheads, make or shoot a bow, or hunt and track an animal. If i found someone who DID know, i could learn. Simple as that


"but no skilled person there would teach some spoiled Canadian (or American) anyway."

yes they would, gladly, for a modest fee.

Im confused by you huehue. On the one hand you go one about how you pursue shamanic knowledge and how it gives you this deep benefit and how its a way of life for you.

On the other hand you throw me all this flak for wanting to go meet the shamans and learn that way of life. Its all "their wisdom is not applicable to other cultures" "theyll never teach a spoiled rich kid" " you can learn it all yourself" etc

and personally i think thats all bullshit. If you want to know about something, you seek out the person who knows the most about that subject. In this case the people who know most about shamanic knowledge would be, surprise surprise, the shamans. I think their knowledge (regarding states of exctasy , moving beyond regular waking conciousness and achieving a deep connection with nature) is applicable universally, it is inherent to the human condition.

I also think that their is no reason why with some effort, persistance, respect and willingness to pay reasonably for services, i couldnt find a shamanic practicioner willing to fill me in. Hundreds of other westerners have.

Nor do i quite understand the source of all your seeming hostility/negativity unless its A. a resentment that someone is going to have first hand experience with the shamanic world that you lack or B. some form of spiritual elitism

I cant think of any other reasons why someone who claims to be a practicing shaman would be so seemingly opposed to a sincere effort to begin my own shamanic initiation and preserve some of the shamanic wisdom and bring it back to the west .

Fill me in dude.

And i think every meeting of strangers should end with an exchange of DMT.

And wiccanseeker, that post really didnt make any sense to me either.

Basically i got:

Native tribes will destroy their worlds, Big society is totally evil, and jonestown was bad, and native tribes were more in tune with the earth.

All of that may be true, but somehow the whole thing was quite confusing.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184202 - 09/26/04 11:56 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

And wiccanseeker, that post really didnt make any sense to me either.

Basically i got:

Native tribes will destroy their worlds, Big society is totally evil, and jonestown was bad, and native tribes were more in tune with the earth.

All of that may be true, but somehow the whole thing was quite confusing.





It made perfect sense to me.(shrugs) Sometimes I feel people try way too hard to understand something that is clear and that is why they do not understand.Human beings are notorious for complicating simple things.Do or do not.Instead we have try,should,could,etc.This or that.INstead of simple decisions we have long drawn out debates over whether or not to choose item 1 or item 2 even though we know we need item 2 and not item 1.lol.It is interesting.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184222 - 09/26/04 11:59 PM (17 years, 25 days ago)

"Wow huehue! you are so skilled and woodsy!"

Your damn right I am! I have spent many years learning these skills. Just read "The Traditional Bowyer's Bible" Volumes I II and III. Then read Tom Brown's book on tracking and follow that up with over a decade of hunting and practice and you will have these skills too. Survival skills can be learned by anyone with a little work. Going 1000 miles to learn any of this is a big waste of time. All you need is a forest...you got trees in Canada don't you?


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3184314 - 09/27/04 12:18 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

I agree with this very much.Survival courses are usually available locally and if not there are TONS of books about survival covering any climates you may need to learn about that are relevant to your locality.

Besides travelling far away to learn survival skills isnt optimal since local flora/fungi etc can differ county to county or city to city even and state to state is the greatest variance.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3184338 - 09/27/04 12:26 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

well yeah that i agree with, but if you had been reading along with me so to speak, youd know that learning survival skills is far from my main reason for visiting shamanic cultures, its just a nice little side benefit. I wont reiterate my real reasons for wanting to go their as i have already done so ad nauseum.

And to clarify i DID understand wiccanspeakers post in as far as each individual peace of it made sense, just not so much how it all fit together. For example, what did the jonestown massacre have to do with tribal societies? to me the statement "this is what happens when people try to go back to tribal living" was ridiculous. That is what happens when a deranged individual attracts a following of deranged individuals and kills them with poisionous koolaid.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184358 - 09/27/04 12:30 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

what did the jonestown massacre have to do with tribal societies?




He was saying that we have lost our connection to nature and just because we are out among trees,woods,etc this doesnt mean we are back in touch with nature and our tribal/primitive self or have suddenly reconnected to nature.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3184371 - 09/27/04 12:33 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

yet again, what does "we have lost our connection to nature and just because we are out among trees,woods,etc this doesnt mean we are back in touch with nature and our tribal/primitive self or have suddenly reconnected to nature. " have to do with the jonestown massacre?


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3184375 - 09/27/04 12:35 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

hey heu, lay down a booklist. I was trying to make a string with cedar fiber the other day with no information, and it didn't work too well. I wanna learn to make strings and ropes from whatever, some simple bow stuff would be sweet, especially if I could make a weapon lethal enough for grouse and quail, the shelter thing I got down, so yeah.. what books do I need to get?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3184385 - 09/27/04 12:36 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

he did lay down a booklist actually, although only after i pointed out that none of the stuff he was talking about could be done without learning from someone who already knows


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184391 - 09/27/04 12:39 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

I got those I wonder if there are more.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184401 - 09/27/04 12:41 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

He is saying when we lose touch with nature we lose touch with the sacredness of life.When we do this we take killing for granted and as a meaningless thing.Today we kill over a few dollars.Our tribal ancestors would kill only if absolutely neccessary.Such as defense food etc.(Cannibals/headhunters excluded though these peopl;e never ever took like as petty like we do today.He also is saying that when we lose touch with nature we become misguided severely.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3184411 - 09/27/04 12:43 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

that i can agree with thank you for clearing it up.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3184438 - 09/27/04 12:51 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

"The Traditional Bowyer's Bible" I  II and III is all you need for archery related stuff.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search...9930539-7303827

for survival read "Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search...9930539-7303827

That should keep you busy. I take squirrels and rabbits with my bow frequently.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3184445 - 09/27/04 12:54 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

i mean for survival in my native canada, up in the whiteshell, i dont need any books of any kind. I simply need a rifle, some bullets and a car. The deer all congregate by the roads for safety from wolves. SImply go out at night, freeze em in the headlights and shoot em in the head. You could bag a whole herd of deer in one night, which would feed you for a lifetime. Fish can be caught by throwing a lure of the shore. Its ridiculous really, the edible biomass their is just crazy.

But no one cares about that.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184452 - 09/27/04 12:57 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

"i mean for survival in my native canada, up in the whiteshell, i dont need any books of any kind. I simply need a rifle, some bullets and a car. The deer all congregate by the roads for safety from wolves. SImply go out at night, freeze em in the headlights and shoot em in the head."

That is not "post-apocalyptic" survival. It is poaching.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3184453 - 09/27/04 12:57 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Our tribal ancestors would kill only if absolutely neccessary.
Not true. The waorani people, an amazonian tribe that resisted outsiders until the 1960s (basically by butchering anybody who tried to contact them) killed eachother for no reason at all. They were a tiny population with a huge territorry, they had food, they had everything they needed, but they liked stabbing eachother with spears. In the seventies an anthropologist had been living with them for a number of years collecting data. Over the past 5 generations 54% of the men and %40 of the women had died from a fellow tribesman's spear, and 20% had been killed by outsiders or had run away from all the butchery to the outside world. In the seven years the anthropologist lived among them, only 3 tribespeople had died of old age. But later somebody let it slip that one of those three had actually been stabbed and thrown into the river because he was deemed to old.

When two of these people meet eachother in the woods, they try and trace their relations back to see whether or not they're related or if they're related to somebody who killed their brother or whatever. Basically it's a race to see whether or not they have to kill eachother, the first one to find out gets the advantage by way of "first stabbing."

The funny thing is the missionaries among them in the seventies have finally helped stop the endless cycle. People who should be trying to murder eachother are united by "church services" and the violence has been replaced with a greater appreciation of the value of life.

So please shut up with your idiotic generalizations and read something PLEASE. The book I got the above info from is Wade Davis's One River. It's awesome, you'll love it, and you'll DEFINETLY learn something.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3184482 - 09/27/04 01:06 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

I cannot possibly research and speak about ALL known tribes and besides it would be a huge waste of my time so I must generalize.They killed to defend territory this certainly is not pointless.These same waorani had their land raped for oila nd their rivers polluted.I am familar with the waorani.Oil companies tricked them lied to them and stole their land.In return they got a small amount of refined and processed food and some tribes got some metal sheets.They didnt want the metal.They accepted the food and came to prefer it over their own.This disrupted their local life.

These waorani stopped defending their territory and now many have been forced to move while many others are now ill from poisoning b/c of having to drink oil polluted waters.Some of theri land has been destroyed and most rivers polluted so nothing can live in it or drink from it.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3184522 - 09/27/04 01:20 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

yes, the story of the waorani is a tragic one, but that's not the debate, so pop another ritalin and go over what we're talking about:

Your generalization that stone-age people only kill for "good reasons." I've negated this statement with my example of the waorani. End of story. Tribal people do the same things we do, but the scale is heavily minimalized by their size (hard to commit genocide with a team of 10 dudes) and their technology (Hard to level hiroshima dropping a rock on it). This gives the impression that technological sophistication has a direct correlation to a sense of morality/ethics, but this is an illusion.

They're humans just like us, please drop the ego and stop insisting otherwise when the evidence is overwhelmingly against you.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3184525 - 09/27/04 01:20 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

When two of these people meet eachother in the woods, they try and trace their relations back to see whether or not they're related or if they're related to somebody who killed their brother or whatever. Basically it's a race to see whether or not they have to kill eachother, the first one to find out gets the advantage by way of "first stabbing."

Sounds like East L.A.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3184531 - 09/27/04 01:22 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

"That is not "post-apocalyptic" survival. It is poaching."

Lol... if their was an apocolypse, the legislation and laws that make that form of hunting poaching would no longer exist. And i would be surviving by hunting and eating the deer. Therefore in every sense of the word that would be post apocalypic survival (surviving after society is gone)

And i never said i do this, nor would do it, unless i needed to (such as in a post apocolyptic survival)


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3184541 - 09/27/04 01:25 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

In an apocalyptic situation, I'd go somewhere with a lake and mountains, like where I grew up, cause a bunch of landslides by diverting creeks so that all the roads are destroyed, and then I'd get 50 people together, make a big war canoe, and then we'd rule the lake with an iron fist. It would be awesome.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3184558 - 09/27/04 01:31 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Waorani arent a stone age culture firstly but thats besides the point.Defending of territory is a good reason.Killing 5 people for an x-box isnt.Im not saying technology has any correlation to morality.

I will not simply agree with you because you tell me I should.lol

I am expressing my opinions.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3184572 - 09/27/04 01:36 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

...so pop another ritalin and go over what we're talking about:

*snrrffttt* Please warn me ahead of time. Now I must clean the beer from my computer screen.  :shocked:


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3184594 - 09/27/04 01:45 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

.Defending of territory is a good reason
They killed a little for that, but for that they killed outsiders. They did not fight eachother for territory. In the 50s and 60s they had 15 square miles for every man, woman, and child. That's fucking huge. Get yer shit straight (ie accept mine).

I am expressing my opinions.
But my information hasn't been considered by your opinion. My information negates your generalization about how tribal stone-age people don't commit sensless acts of violence. Simple.

Waorani arent a stone age culture firstly
Not currently, no, but a lot of the information in my post was about the 60s and 70s. At that point they didn't even make their own stone tools. They found axeheads in the forest every now and then that were made hundreds of years previously by a different culture (I guess they win on the recycling front). They saw the axeheads as gifts from gods, so I guess that means that until recently, they were in an age previous to the stone. Weird eh?

Anyway, if I wasn't a teched-out stoner .. you're lucky I'm not a waorani, I'd probably stab you with sharpened fire-hardened stick by now.. those sick bastards.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Swami]
    #3184604 - 09/27/04 01:47 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Swami, if you paid the bills by selling pharmaceuticals on the rave circuit out of the trunk of your car.. you'd be way cooler.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3184650 - 09/27/04 01:54 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

How do you think I manage to be on here all the time without "working"? Oops! I better delete this...


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3185050 - 09/27/04 04:17 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

I cannot possibly research and speak about ALL known tribes and besides it would be a huge waste of my time so I must generalize.




And when you generalize like that you make enormous mistakes.

Such as romantacizing about the "good ol' days".

Humans have been regretting the downfall of society for the past few thousand years, looking back to the "good ol' days" of yor when everything was better.

Quote:

i disagree. I would never be able to 'teach myself' how to carve flint arrowheads, make or shoot a bow, or hunt and track an animal. If i found someone who DID know, i could learn. Simple as that





Why the need to have someone hold your hand?
If you truly want to learn.. teach yourself! It's not hard, do you think the first guy who did any of those things was taught?
Pick up a rock and start smackin it with another rock. Not work right? Try again. Do it differently. Think.
The trick to being truly taught how to do anything is not to be coddled but to be prodded into realizing things on your own. It simply is faster to have someone to prod you, but you CAN go it alone.

Quote:

He is saying when we lose touch with nature we lose touch with the sacredness of life.When we do this we take killing for granted and as a meaningless thing.Today we kill over a few dollars




This is such a ridiculous belief I don't know where to start on it. It's as if I've been handed a sandwich twice as tall as my mouth can open, overflowing with roast beef from all sides..

I certainly have never lost touch with the sacredness of life. Nor have I killed for a few dollars. Nor do I know anyone who has.
Living inside houses and among technology does not cause crime and immorality. Poor parenting and education can really be blamed for most of that.. have you ever noticed how many parents allow their children to command them? How little authority is actually in the hands of authority, to those kids? Why do you THINK they do what they want -- that's how they've been raised.
Nature has nothing to do with proper behavior.. we do. Sure, being in touch with nature is great, but most people who babble about being in touch with nature are only fair-weather fans.


And by the by nature can be pretty damned miserable. Ever get stuck out in the woods in a downpour when it's about 60 degrees outside? That's farenheit, not wussy celcius. IE Cold. Nothing loving about that, it's MISERABLE! Now put yourself in the middle of a patch of 8' high laurel that grabs at you whenever you move, that pulls at your boots when you try and step and does its best to trip you, and when you exit that 100 yard-wide thicket you find yourself not only soaked to the bone but in the middle of a briar thicket. Halfway through you discover that underfoot isn't solid ground but rather loose rocks, that are now slick from the water and the dead leaves on those rocks. Try not to twist an ankle. And try not to bloody yourself too bad. Oh and I do hope you found your way out of that thicket correctly -- not hard to get turned around when you can't see more than a foot in any direction and you don't even have any landmarks in the sky to judge your direction. Hope your mental compass and map are both up to par.

Get in touch with THAT, and then maybe come talk about how wonderful nature is. There's a reason we don't live in the woods man. It can be a pretty shitty place.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3185395 - 09/27/04 07:58 AM (17 years, 24 days ago)

People: if you want to learn survival skills from the natives you should UTFSE! Because the US Army already did that and made a nice fieldmanual of it they fondly call  FM 21-76 which you see here as a browsable online copy. There is a PDF with the book as a free download but I misplaced the link to it.

By no means sponsor the US military or a shifty army surplus store (like in the movie "Falling Down") by buying the manual: just steal from the Army like they all do all over the rest of the Internet :grin:


***And to clarify i DID understand wiccanspeakers post in as far as each individual peace of it made sense, just not so much how it all fit together. For example, what did the jonestown massacre have to do with tribal societies? to me the statement "this is what happens when people try to go back to tribal living" was ridiculous.***

If you had not used a dot in between you would've said you don't understand my statement and that its rediculous in one sentence!
Don't you think it might seem ridiculous because you misunderstand? :wink:

Jonestown (I prefer to call it the Guyana Tragedy other then "Massacre" because I believe many voluntarily drank the kool-aid) was a classic case of a western societal group that went Tribal, and in months they "destroyed the entire world" by implosion: by tribal apocalypse. (Tribal suicide of the entire interacting circle of people is also a form of "destroying the entire world")

Its a drastic deed by people who saw no way out. I didnt post the .gif as an excuse to show off my creation but to make a point: we as a mass-society bunch of people have lost internal and external harmony. When we get back in a tribal situation we all to easily revert to a state that is even more scattered then we are in our cities.

On a corporate survival trip the group disintegrates into the whiners, the bitchers and the sons-of-bitches :evil: and thats on the first day.
It need not happen today nut most tribesmen fall silent and timid when placed in cities while most city people get aggressive if they get latrine digging duty in even a friendly little camp.

Please reread my postings in this light.. i spend a heap of time writing em :wink:!


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3186717 - 09/27/04 04:20 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

I think one of the major problems with this discussion is that a lot of people are pointing out examples of aggression and violence that is committed by different tribal peoples without contextualizing it or having any sort of concept of the cultural significance behind it.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3186917 - 09/27/04 05:11 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

"I think one of the major problems with this discussion is that a lot of people are pointing out examples of aggression and violence that is committed by different tribal peoples without contextualizing it or having any sort of concept of the cultural significance behind it. "

If you're going to say it's OK for them, what's to say it's not OK for us?


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3188349 - 09/27/04 10:19 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

"Why the need to have someone hold your hand?
If you truly want to learn.. teach yourself! It's not hard, do you think the first guy who did any of those things was taught?
Pick up a rock and start smackin it with another rock. Not work right? Try again. Do it differently. Think.
The trick to being truly taught how to do anything is not to be coddled but to be prodded into realizing things on your own. It simply is faster to have someone to prod you, but you CAN go it alone."

sure i can but this is just stupid. The first guy to invent calculus did it by himself too, but im sure as fuck not gonna sit around scratching my head until i 'figure it out' by 'going it alone', no im going to go to class and learn it from someone who knows.

Likewise when i want to learn to swim i dont jump in a lake and flounder around until i either drown or it clicks, i go to swimming lessons.

When i want to learn to drive i take driving lessons i dont get behind the wheel and 'go it alone'

i could list infinite examples but i wont because your point that learning knowledge from people who have it is somehow dishonourable or wrong is inane.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3188410 - 09/27/04 10:28 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

"Likewise when i want to learn to swim i dont jump in a lake and flounder around until i either drown or it clicks, i go to swimming lessons."

That is not even a comparable situation. If you were truly interested in primitive culture you would be learning about it now, not planning some mythical quest to the Amazon to have a shamanic initiation that will never seem to materialize. Shamanic initiation is not something that can be bought for a fee. It happens or it doesn't. No one you could ever meet could cause you to experience this. It could happen on the streets of New York City as easily as the Amazon...more easily probably.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3188624 - 09/27/04 11:08 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

yeesh.. since you bring it up, i am doing much to learn about shamanic cultures in every way i can, as i have mentioned numerous times. I am reading available literature on shamanism, i am studying animism and shamanism through a world religions univiresity course, i am actively pracitcing shamanic techniques and procedures whenever it is possible, but i fully realize that right now other priorities such as graduating and getting scholar ships must take precedence.

Im doing all the 'prep work' i can as well as undergoing vision quests of various kinds and spending time in solitary communion with nature.

Once i graduate from my courses i will have the time needed for the 'determined and dedicated ' process that is shamanic initiation. I realize that the process is one that must be initiated and pursued with in the self. Nevertheless it perplexes me why you find the concept of seeking out a practicing, knowledgeable shaman for instruction so insulting. Its something pretty much every authentic shaman in the world has done.

Ive said it before and ill say it again, you need to come off this spiritual elitist trip your on. You are not the only person knowledgeable about shamanism, and more importantly you do not know me nearly well enough to be making all these judgements on my life. Your basing it on nothing.

And my quest to the amazon is hardly mythical. Im going their initially at the end of this school year on a peace and development trip to costa rica, where i will live by myself with costa rican hosts, doing community development work with my class. I will see the protected rainforest then, and learn conversational spanish throughout the year.

After that (about 14 months from now) ill take my savings and go to peru with Gecko travel company to visit tropical bird conservatories, the floating reed people of the amazon, and the aztec ruins, as well as the contemporary culture... whatever this thread isnt about my travel plans, but the fact remains you dont know shit about me and your acting like a jealous little child.

I honestly dont get why someone who claims to be a learning shaman and goes on about how great the practice of shamanism is, yet he constantly attacks and criticizes me for saying i plan to do everything i can to study and practice that same tradition.

Its elitist trash and from now on you can keep those judgements to yourself

And please get this straight, i just threw in that stuff about learning survival skills as a side note, something that would be worth doing during my trip, But that is far from my purpose for traveling. In no way am i sayin that you cant learn survival skills from books or whatever, you can but all learning is easier with a knowledgeable teacher.

Anyways if you read my post youll see that stuff about swimming and driving was about something totaly diifferent and not related to shamanic initiation at all.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3189993 - 09/28/04 03:05 AM (17 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

sure i can but this is just stupid. The first guy to invent calculus did it by himself too, but im sure as fuck not gonna sit around scratching my head until i 'figure it out' by 'going it alone', no im going to go to class and learn it from someone who knows.





But this isn't Calculus we're talking about.

This is something very simple done with very simple materials through very simple means.
I mean, making a flint knife? YOU BANG TWO ROCKS TOGETHER. THAT IS NOT CALCULUS. Is it hard? Sure it is, it's not easy at least.. but it IS something you can teach yourself by sitting around with a lot of rocks and hitting them together.

And why should you take the easy route, anyway?
Hey, go for it if you want, but maybe.. maybe you should be taking the hard road?

Maybe instead of learning things from primitive societies, you should instead learn them on your own, through your own more advanced society? Hasn't been done? Maybe someone should?
Why take the easy road?


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3191221 - 09/28/04 01:33 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

Hehe this is getting silly as long as the easy road takes me to the same place as the hard road, ill take the easy one. So will you. Or maybe you wont, your choice, but i see no reason why seeking out a teacher to learn skills should be objectionable to anyone

"I mean, making a flint knife? YOU BANG TWO ROCKS TOGETHER. THAT IS NOT CALCULUS." hehe ok seriously man, you dont know what the fuck your talking about, i defy you to go get as many rocks as you can get your hands on and bang them together till your hands bleed, and you just let me know how long it takes you to make a nice functional flint blade.

Keep in mind you are not allowed to look up an instructions or information. You have to take the hard road.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3191792 - 09/28/04 04:06 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

"Its elitist trash and from now on you can keep those judgements to yourself"

No it is not "elitist trash" when I see you on here talking to others like you are an expert, but pushing ideas from a Castaneda book as true shamanism. There is no doubt that Castaneda was a brilliant writer, but a writer of inspiring fiction. Your posts have merely displayed that you know nothing of the subject. The very idea you have that a shamanic initiation (also called a shamanic crisis) can be had on demand and suddenly transform you into a mythical character belies your lack of knowledge. If I were being elitist I would say that I have knowledge that you have no access to, but that is not what I am saying. All along I have been telling you that to gain this knowledge requires work, but it is not secret, hidden knowledge; it is purely public domain.

"Once i graduate from my courses i will have the time needed for the 'determined and dedicated ' process that is shamanic initiation."

You think such a thing can be scheduled, but the spirit knows nothing of dates and calendars.

"honestly dont get why someone who claims to be a learning shaman and goes on about how great the practice of shamanism"

I never made such a claim at any time. In shamanic cultures ALL people are taught to be responsible for their own spiritual growth. So, all of the people would practice shamanism to varying degrees to maintain spiritual, mental, and physical health. This is what I am doing. In our culture the responsibility for all of those things is given to others in return for money...many people avoid taking any responsibility for themselves at all. The Shaman was responsible for healing others who were beyond helping themselves.

"i just threw in that stuff about learning survival skills as a side note, something that would be worth doing during my trip"

I know this, but once again these things are essential to learning about shamanism as a close relationship with nature is a requirement. These skills can be practiced anywhere. Anyway, I am not being mean or elitist I only called your hand and you ain't holding the cards you claimed.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3192058 - 09/28/04 05:22 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

I think that the problem lies in that you felt Moonshoe was somehow boasting or claiming he was a developed shaman. This threatened you, as you have spent a great deal of time on the subject, and are more knowledgable of the ancient traditions, and thus you felt Moonshoe was not as qualified to tell others to get involved in shamanism. Moonshoe's original position however was simply that a shamanic lifestyle can be pursued by anyone - even in our "western" society here.


All reading and no action is no better than no reading yet initial action.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: deff]
    #3192088 - 09/28/04 05:28 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

No, I just hate seeing people spread erroneous information as fact. To define a shamanic lifestyle to others requires knowing what it is. Come on, I can't be threatened by words on a screen that is ridiculous. Show up at my house with a weapon and I may feel threatened, but this is the internet. Do I have an ego...certainly, but so does everyone.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3192125 - 09/28/04 05:36 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

I meant threatened not as in scared for your safety, but rather that you felt someone with seemingly less knowledge of the topic was appearing as a valid source of information. Surely all of the time you've spent in this study caused you to feel a certain way when you read his "erroneous" information, which really wasn't that erroneous, just misinterpreted.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3192130 - 09/28/04 05:37 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

" pushing ideas from a Castaneda book as true shamanism. "

Listen man, if you look at my posts you will never find me even describing castanedas stuff. In fact i never even really said much about shamanism except that its open to everyone, in this culture as well as primitive ones. "but it is not secret, hidden knowledge; it is purely public domain." on that me and you have no disagreement,
this whole argument seems to come about from you thinking that just because i used don juans terms nagual and tonal i am somehow drawing all my information from his books. Im not. I simply used those words to refer to the seen and unseen worlds, the known and not-yet-known realms.

You act like im trying to be some big expert here when all i have ever done is give a definition of shamanism from a text book and a dictionary. In addition i claim that shamanic knowledge is open to all of us.

"Your posts have merely displayed that you know nothing of the subject.'

Once again, my post have only EVER said 3 things about shamanism one: the current anthropological definition two: that this knowledge is available to all people and 3. that i intend to invest time and effort into learning and practicing the tradition. I never made any claims to great knowledge and i still dont see what it is your being so pissy about.

" The very idea you have that a shamanic initiation (also called a shamanic crisis) can be had on demand and suddenly transform you into a mythical character belies your lack of knowledge."

I never said anything like that. I never said shamanic initiation can be 'had on demand' i said i was planning to go on my own personal quest for knowledge and experience, including the shamanic knowledge and experience. I certainly never said anything about being transformed into a mythical character.

"If I were being elitist I would say that I have knowledge that you have no access to, but that is not what I am saying. '

No thats true, but what you ARE saying is that you are in some elevated position that allows you to judge my ideas methods and beliefs. You are passing judgments on my motives and my character based on little or no imformation, You are being presumptuos and arrogant. In my oppinion that is elitism. (thinking you are better)


"All along I have been telling you that to gain this knowledge requires work"

And all along I have been telling YOU that i am willing, dedicated and actively putting in that work! i am studying, reading, learning, researching and practicing.


"You think such a thing can be scheduled, but the spirit knows nothing of dates and calendars."

Thats fine and dandy but the spirit has a hard time making itself haerd when you spend your whole day running from class to class, doing research and homework and working. This is true of my own experience at least. Shamans have always sequesterd themselves away for periods of fasting, meditation, vision seeking, learning and study. That is ALL i am saying i plan to do.



"In shamanic cultures ALL people are taught to be responsible for their own spiritual growth. So, all of the people would practice shamanism to varying degrees to maintain spiritual, mental, and physical health. This is what I am doing. '

And this is also exactly what i seek to do. And once again you reafirm that your motives and desires are no different then mine, yet you continually come off as condescending, scornfull and discouraging of the very ideas and practices that you espouse.


"I know this, but once again these things are essential to learning about shamanism as a close relationship with nature is a requirement."

That is indeed why i want to learn them. the close relationship with nature is something i already develop from endless hours of solitary nature hiking and meditation. Its just the practical skills that i dont yet know as well as i should. Im just thinking that since im going to peru anyways its somewhere i could learn some skills.


" I only called your hand and you ain't holding the cards you claimed."

like i said. i never made any claims that were untrue. All i am claiming is that i want to learn .


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Edited by Moonshoe (09/28/04 07:04 PM)


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: deff]
    #3192299 - 09/28/04 07:01 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

Deff you should go into some kind of conflict mediation work. Its good work and good karma, and youd be damn good at it.

:thumbup:


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: deff]
    #3192382 - 09/28/04 07:18 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

"Listen man, if you look at my posts you will never find me even describing castanedas stuff."

Really.

"The shaman realizes that the world consists of a Tonal (everything we have learned to fit into our perceptual schema and describe with language) and a nagual"

This is pure Castaneda. Really it is Castaneda's invention. The Tonal and Naugal concept as you present it is his. He even misuses Huichol words (naugal: Huichol for a werewolf) to name his own concepts and make it seem "Indian". Maybe if I hadn't read Castaneda I might be fooled into thinking you had some ancient concept on the surface.

Deff, I know what you meant, I was being humorous, but the idea that words on a screen threaten my self image is ridiculous. I would be a very weak person indeed if this were true. This forum is a source of intellectual entertainment to me, we are here to discuss. When you hit the point that you have to agree with someone in order to prevent damage to their self image or ego then that is an indication that something erroneous is occuring.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3192410 - 09/28/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

The fruit of conflict is new ideas and change.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Asante]
    #3192477 - 09/28/04 07:38 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

Ouch.. now I know why most Tribes only have one shaman :wink:

Let's try and play it less on the man and more on topic.
Personally I believe that in the absence of a Teacher you should look within, erase allyou thought of shamanism, get in touch with nature and let the process commence before adding books to the equasion.

You can describe holding a chestnut, imagine it and feel it in, but to actually hold a chestnut, and the soul within it that could outlive you by centuries, is an entirely different affair.

Smacking flintstones to make arrowheads and scrapers is tougher then it seems, just like good flaming its done with glancing blows :grin:

Many people think eating and tripping when Native Americans and Peyote are discussed. A relationship with the Plant Teacher goes much further then that. It includes bonding with individual Peyotes without slicing them, conversing with them, gaining knowledge without eating its buttons. It is like the Wiccan Mandrake Man: you don't tend to a Mandragora man (dress it, wash it with wine under a full moon) for getting high on l-hyoscyamine, but because of the relationship between you and that forked root.

On a more mundane level many on these forums will agree that once you have GROWN Mushrooms (given them life and raising them instead of just taking their bodies) your Trips will never be the same and only then has your relationship with the Mushroom truely begun. When I grew them I felt obligated to spread their spores.

Shamanism is of all times, whether it is in a circle of stones or a circle cast with spraypaint on an empty parkinglot under the sodium lights, it is a merging, reforging of the ties with Nature.
What is asphalt but the remains of ancient microbes and pebbles, and what is concrete but sand and rock?
The time always has been the NOW. We must adhere to traditions we truely grasp but also create traditions of our own.

Let us please look at what we have in common and be respectful of our differences. Us "pagans" (its just a word) should light the path, not obscure it.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Asante]
    #3192542 - 09/28/04 07:51 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

"Ouch.. now I know why most Tribes only have one shaman"

At the risk of disagreeing...not true. There often several.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3192694 - 09/28/04 08:16 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

Touch?. The larger ones often do.
That was the mailman though, care to comment on the package?


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3192725 - 09/28/04 08:22 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

"The shaman realizes that the world consists of a Tonal (everything we have learned to fit into our perceptual schema and describe with language) and a nagual"

Ive explained again and again that these words are simply borrowed to explain the world of the waking conciousness and the worlds that the shaman enters in the shamanic states of conciousness. If they bother you so much ignore them it does nothing to change the message i was trying to convey. I simply knew that many people here have read those books and therefore used his terms and example as a way of getting the idea across

I still stand by my assertion that a key (if not THE) key aspect of shamanism is being able to enter ecstatic states, defined as 'stepping outside of normal waking conciousness'

I was simply using tonal and nagual , if you prefer you can use michael harners OSC (ordinary state of conciousness) and ssc (shamanic state of conciouness)

What i am saying is that although i borrowed castanedas words, the concept is represented in all true shamanism and is sound.

You might note that harner himself considers castaneda a valid source of shamanic knowledge.

He mentions it in his introduction and throughout way of the shaman.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (09/28/04 08:37 PM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3192749 - 09/28/04 08:26 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

"When you hit the point that you have to agree with someone in order to prevent damage to their self image or ego then that is an indication that something erroneous is occuring. "

And what does this mean? "

and if we can briefly get back to the topic

I agree totally with this "I certainly have never lost touch with the sacredness of life. Nor have I killed for a few dollars. Nor do I know anyone who has.
Living inside houses and among technology does not cause crime and immorality"

i dont think the cause for human violence or evil or badness is large scale urbanized society any more than it is primitive tribal society. The cause for evil is somethin within all people living in every lifestyle. I dont claim to know exactly what that cause is.

In terms of simple violence we have some reason to believe the cause is genetic/biological because many of our interspecies-agressive behaviours are matched very closely by our nearest genetic cousins, the chimps.



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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (09/28/04 08:55 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Asante]
    #3193017 - 09/28/04 09:21 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

I agree with much of what you say, but the part about leaving books out of the equation would hinder any modern exploration of shamanism. The practice of shamanism presents the individual with a set of time honored and proven tools for the purpose. To ignore these tools and their traditional uses is like using an axe to rake your garden, or using a broom to cut down a tree. It is self defeating and innefficient. To JUST form a connection with nature is required for shamanism, but it is not shamanism, but there is no doubt that any human will benefit from forming this relationship regardless of their religious preference.

"Shamanism is of all times, whether it is in a circle of stones or a circle cast with spraypaint on an empty parkinglot under the sodium lights, it is a merging, reforging of the ties with Nature.
What is asphalt but the remains of ancient microbes and pebbles, and what is concrete but sand and rock?
The time always has been the NOW. We must adhere to traditions we truely grasp but also create traditions of our own."

That was well said and true, but we need a foundation to build these traditions on; what better building materials than the ancient flagstones of shamanic practice. Is this a sufficient comment?


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha *DELETED* [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3193032 - 09/28/04 09:25 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

Post deleted by Moonshoe


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Everything I post is fiction.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3193054 - 09/28/04 09:29 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

It was a reply to wiccan seeker :wink:


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3193109 - 09/28/04 09:37 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

ehhhm Moonshoe.. he was addressing my post :cool:

Quote:


Personally I believe that in the absence of a Teacher you should look within, erase allyou thought of shamanism, get in touch with nature and let the process commence before adding books to the equasion.





I'm sorry I wasn't clear but i meant this as a sequence, with the emptying of the head and turning inward as a cleansing before bonding with Nature, and from the bond with nature study.
It is hard to adhere to traditions you don't fathom, one needs to find one's Self and Nature to reach harmony.

No books would be impractical for the western shaman as your Healer side would have to know which plant does what and how not to freeze to death in a winter forest. So we actually agree on this.

But we're relentlessly jacking this thread offtopic. Would "tribal stone-age shamanistic societies" be spiritually purer by their nature was the question i believe. Shall we go that path again?
We all agree Shamanism is the essence left, right, front and rear, but would a shamanic society tend to be more enlightened?


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Asante]
    #3194793 - 09/29/04 10:14 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

"Would "tribal stone-age shamanistic societies" be spiritually purer by their nature was the question i believe. Shall we go that path again?"

These people had their faults based on their superstitions and prejudices just like we do. Just as we have developed useful and innovative technologies so to did primitive societies, it just happens that they had different materials to work with, and they also had lots of free time for things such as self exploration. Maybe I would say that they were spiritually more pure by being closer to the source of creation by having a seamless connection with nature, but not in any other way. I see shamanic practice as a set of tools not unlike software development tools except instead of using them to modify computer software they are used to program our own internal "software".


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3195212 - 09/29/04 01:02 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

i love this part "What is asphalt but the remains of ancient microbes and pebbles, and what is concrete but sand and rock?"

never thought of it that way  :thumbup:


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3197030 - 09/29/04 09:00 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

May I ask what your cultural heritage is? May I assume you aren't South American, and perhaps are a white North American of European ancestry? Correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's majorly problematic (and unintentionally genocidal) of white north american people to try and fit into an aboriginal culture they have no actual tie to. Going to the Amazon and spending a bunch of money to have an "authentic" aboriginal vision quest is exactly the kind of thing ignorant middle class white tourists do and has no real connection to any real culture or any authentic spiritual practice, no matter how strongly we white kids feel we need that kind of thing. I know we are all spiritually lacking to the utmost, and its really shitty but trying to take on the spiritual tradition of a culture that we are not related to is fucked up. Look to your landbase, get out in the woods (if you've got em, or the plains or the desert, or whatever you got thats wild) and connect with your own land. Connect with your own ancestral shamanic heritage, we may all claim roots to animistic, shamanic culture somewhere along the lines, we've just lost hold of it.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3197493 - 09/29/04 10:42 PM (17 years, 22 days ago)

"I know we are all spiritually lacking to the utmost, and its really shitty but trying to take on the spiritual tradition of a culture that we are not related to is fucked up"

So your saying black people shouldnt be christians, only the chinese can be buddhist, only indians can be hindu?

Im not even gonna bother explaining why i think thats BullShit.


I think cultural genocide is when stupid white missionaries go to shamanistic/animistic tribes and indoctrinate them with their 'holy truth' thus destroying countless cultures.

What i plan to do is the opposite. I am going to peru one way or the other, for sightseeing and exploration and adventure, While i am there i also hope to meet interesting individuals, and especially individuals with some shamanic knowledge. I will simply aproach them as friends and equals, and politely question them about their spiritual beliefs and practices. I will listen and remember.

That is all. I see nothing damaging in this.

If one of them ends up spending long periods of time with me simply educating me , then i will politely ask if it would be appropriate to a give a gift of money in return for his gift of time and wisdom.

I am not going up to random shamanic practicioners and going "hey you! teach me your secrets and ill give you cash!"

think what you want. I simply wish to learn.

And i do connect with my own land. I practice shamanic practices and study shamanic knowledge here in canada and will continue to do so. But i deeply wish to see the amazon (before its all clearcut) and try to preserve some of the wisdom and memory of vanishing cultures (before they get wiped out by the expansion of oil companies)


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3197896 - 09/30/04 12:20 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Well said.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3198270 - 09/30/04 01:35 AM (17 years, 22 days ago)

Im not even gonna bother explaining why i think thats BullShit.

Please explain.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3207446 - 10/02/04 07:04 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

There is a major difference between a religion like Christianity, which at this point is completely separated from any bioregion and actually wants to convert the whole world, and a shamanic indigenous form of spiritual practice that is completely connected to and springs from its own landbase and is culturall specific.

The issue here is cultural appropriation. If I, an Irish Canadian person was to start practicing a traditional haida shamanic methodology it would be totally disrespectful of the aboriginal people of this land. I am not a part of the culture which that specific spiritual practice is connected to so I cannot understand it or relate it to my ancestry or personal history. The only thing that could really come out of my cooption of thier tradition is white poeple stealing even more from them and turning it into something it isn't. I have a deep respect for the shamanic traditions of many indigenous cultures but I'm not indigenous and I have no right to steal thier traditions and make them my own.

However, since I am deeply drawn to shamanic practice, I certainly can seek out my own cultural heritage, I can learn directly from the land, learn to listen to the plants and animals, and ocean and wind and my own spirit and connect in that way. After all that is what shamanism is about. Direct communion with the earth and the spirit world. Placing myself in the realm of a tradition I have no connection to is disrespectful, false and genocidal and defeats the purpose of shamanic spirituality in the first place.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3207911 - 10/02/04 09:42 PM (17 years, 19 days ago)

True, while studying other cultures to gain insite is good, utilizing culture specific practices is not only disrespectful, it is useless because the practice is specific to only that culture and not your own.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3208975 - 10/03/04 04:02 AM (17 years, 19 days ago)

Again, i fail to see what is disrespectfull or genocidal about seeking to learn the ideas and beliefs of a particular group. I still disagree that it is somehow impossible or inapropriate to learn and benefit from the wisdom of a person or group of people simply because they have a different skin colour, evolved in a different location or climate or wear different clothes.

Unlike you, i dont define myself by my ethnicity or location. I Dont say 'im a white canadian, so i must seek out the truth of other white canadians' every human culture in every place has made its own efforts to explain and explore the grand mystery of the human condition, and that effort is universal. The idea that the whites cannot learn from the blacks or the north americans cannot learn from the south americans, that the people of the plains cannot learn from the people of the forests... to me this idea is false, and it has no place in my life.

The shamanic experience is essentially universal, it is a process of percieving and interacting with the world beyond the physical, a way of touching the spiritual side of life. This process is accesible to all people. Some of their practices, relating to native flora or fauna or other things, such as specificities of ritual or ceremony, will not be applicable to my own life.

However, i do believe the underlieing concepts and truths are things that i can learn from regardless of how far away i was born.

"I have no right to steal thier traditions and make them my own."

Im not planning to 'steal' anything, im planning to ask those who know to share their version of truth with me. If THEY find that disrepectfull, they will refuse, and that is fine with me. Knowledge is not some possession to be jealously hoarded, and you dont lose it when you share it with another.

There is nothing genocidal about open mindedly and respectfully seeking to learn from the knowledge and wisdom of a culture thousands of years old.

What IS genocidal is clear cutting massive swathes of the rainforests that these people call home to expand agriculture and oil drilling. This is the process that will soon lead to the extinction of this cultures knowledge and way of life, and the only way any of that wisdom will be preserved for the benefit of humanity is if some of the first world starts to take an interest in the oral traditions of those cultures before they are gone forever.


"utilizing cultural specific pracitce is not only disrepectfull, it is also useless"

Im not sure if i understand what you mean by cultural specific practice. Give me some examples and maybe i can respond.

"think it's majorly problematic of white north american people to try and fit into an aboriginal culture they have no actual tie to"

Im not trying to 'fit in' to them im simply trying to learn from them.


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Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (10/03/04 04:31 AM)


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3210010 - 10/03/04 04:30 PM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Moonshoe, I just wanna make sure its clear that I really do respect where you're coming from. You've got a lot more good ideas surrounding this stuff than a lot of people do and thats awesome. I also really understand and respect your quest for learning shamanic spirituality from the source. I should clarify, I don't think its genocidal or disrespectful to learn about a cultures form of spirituality for the sake of broadening ones perspective and exploring how different cultures explain the spiritual concepts we all instinctually share. The genocidal and problematic part comes in when I, a white girl of european ancestry, raised in a european way, imbued (whether I like it or not, and i don't) with european values and psychology comes along and claims to be a *part of* the culture I've been learning about. I can learn tons and tons about haida spirituality and thats totally cool, in fact probably a good idea. The problem is when I claim to be a haida shaman because I know a bunch about thier methodologies.

We all can be, and should be, informed by the spiritual paths of many other peoples. It's fascinating and beautiful stuff, especially considering the coercive, guilt trippy garbage thats come out of our own cultures for a damn long time... however, its not my place (or the place of any non-indigenous person) to claim to be a *part of* indigenous culture. We can be spiritual comrades with said people, in our own ways, on our own paths that perhaps lie parallel to thiers....

Am I clear? I believe that us whiteys really need to search out and reconnect with our shamanic roots and recognize the sacred nature of the earth... learn to listen to the plants and animals and microorganisms, the wind and the waves and the stars... we need to learn how to communicate on that level and reclaim our essential, instinctual, animistic spiritual heritage.... we simply need to be aware and careful not to coopt someone elses set of mythologies in the process. Not to take culturally specific principles for our own use, because we can never really understand them, and taking them for ourselves has the effect of taking the away, taking thier authenticity away, from the already slaughtered and oppressed peoples they came from.

Explore to your heart's content, explore other cultures for sure, directly learn from the land.... we just need to avoid coopting stuff that isn't our own.


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