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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3185050 - 09/27/04 04:17 AM (17 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

I cannot possibly research and speak about ALL known tribes and besides it would be a huge waste of my time so I must generalize.




And when you generalize like that you make enormous mistakes.

Such as romantacizing about the "good ol' days".

Humans have been regretting the downfall of society for the past few thousand years, looking back to the "good ol' days" of yor when everything was better.

Quote:

i disagree. I would never be able to 'teach myself' how to carve flint arrowheads, make or shoot a bow, or hunt and track an animal. If i found someone who DID know, i could learn. Simple as that





Why the need to have someone hold your hand?
If you truly want to learn.. teach yourself! It's not hard, do you think the first guy who did any of those things was taught?
Pick up a rock and start smackin it with another rock. Not work right? Try again. Do it differently. Think.
The trick to being truly taught how to do anything is not to be coddled but to be prodded into realizing things on your own. It simply is faster to have someone to prod you, but you CAN go it alone.

Quote:

He is saying when we lose touch with nature we lose touch with the sacredness of life.When we do this we take killing for granted and as a meaningless thing.Today we kill over a few dollars




This is such a ridiculous belief I don't know where to start on it. It's as if I've been handed a sandwich twice as tall as my mouth can open, overflowing with roast beef from all sides..

I certainly have never lost touch with the sacredness of life. Nor have I killed for a few dollars. Nor do I know anyone who has.
Living inside houses and among technology does not cause crime and immorality. Poor parenting and education can really be blamed for most of that.. have you ever noticed how many parents allow their children to command them? How little authority is actually in the hands of authority, to those kids? Why do you THINK they do what they want -- that's how they've been raised.
Nature has nothing to do with proper behavior.. we do. Sure, being in touch with nature is great, but most people who babble about being in touch with nature are only fair-weather fans.


And by the by nature can be pretty damned miserable. Ever get stuck out in the woods in a downpour when it's about 60 degrees outside? That's farenheit, not wussy celcius. IE Cold. Nothing loving about that, it's MISERABLE! Now put yourself in the middle of a patch of 8' high laurel that grabs at you whenever you move, that pulls at your boots when you try and step and does its best to trip you, and when you exit that 100 yard-wide thicket you find yourself not only soaked to the bone but in the middle of a briar thicket. Halfway through you discover that underfoot isn't solid ground but rather loose rocks, that are now slick from the water and the dead leaves on those rocks. Try not to twist an ankle. And try not to bloody yourself too bad. Oh and I do hope you found your way out of that thicket correctly -- not hard to get turned around when you can't see more than a foot in any direction and you don't even have any landmarks in the sky to judge your direction. Hope your mental compass and map are both up to par.

Get in touch with THAT, and then maybe come talk about how wonderful nature is. There's a reason we don't live in the woods man. It can be a pretty shitty place.


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3185395 - 09/27/04 07:58 AM (17 years, 24 days ago)

People: if you want to learn survival skills from the natives you should UTFSE! Because the US Army already did that and made a nice fieldmanual of it they fondly call  FM 21-76 which you see here as a browsable online copy. There is a PDF with the book as a free download but I misplaced the link to it.

By no means sponsor the US military or a shifty army surplus store (like in the movie "Falling Down") by buying the manual: just steal from the Army like they all do all over the rest of the Internet :grin:


***And to clarify i DID understand wiccanspeakers post in as far as each individual peace of it made sense, just not so much how it all fit together. For example, what did the jonestown massacre have to do with tribal societies? to me the statement "this is what happens when people try to go back to tribal living" was ridiculous.***

If you had not used a dot in between you would've said you don't understand my statement and that its rediculous in one sentence!
Don't you think it might seem ridiculous because you misunderstand? :wink:

Jonestown (I prefer to call it the Guyana Tragedy other then "Massacre" because I believe many voluntarily drank the kool-aid) was a classic case of a western societal group that went Tribal, and in months they "destroyed the entire world" by implosion: by tribal apocalypse. (Tribal suicide of the entire interacting circle of people is also a form of "destroying the entire world")

Its a drastic deed by people who saw no way out. I didnt post the .gif as an excuse to show off my creation but to make a point: we as a mass-society bunch of people have lost internal and external harmony. When we get back in a tribal situation we all to easily revert to a state that is even more scattered then we are in our cities.

On a corporate survival trip the group disintegrates into the whiners, the bitchers and the sons-of-bitches :evil: and thats on the first day.
It need not happen today nut most tribesmen fall silent and timid when placed in cities while most city people get aggressive if they get latrine digging duty in even a friendly little camp.

Please reread my postings in this light.. i spend a heap of time writing em :wink:!


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3186717 - 09/27/04 04:20 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

I think one of the major problems with this discussion is that a lot of people are pointing out examples of aggression and violence that is committed by different tribal peoples without contextualizing it or having any sort of concept of the cultural significance behind it.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3186917 - 09/27/04 05:11 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

"I think one of the major problems with this discussion is that a lot of people are pointing out examples of aggression and violence that is committed by different tribal peoples without contextualizing it or having any sort of concept of the cultural significance behind it. "

If you're going to say it's OK for them, what's to say it's not OK for us?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3188349 - 09/27/04 10:19 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

"Why the need to have someone hold your hand?
If you truly want to learn.. teach yourself! It's not hard, do you think the first guy who did any of those things was taught?
Pick up a rock and start smackin it with another rock. Not work right? Try again. Do it differently. Think.
The trick to being truly taught how to do anything is not to be coddled but to be prodded into realizing things on your own. It simply is faster to have someone to prod you, but you CAN go it alone."

sure i can but this is just stupid. The first guy to invent calculus did it by himself too, but im sure as fuck not gonna sit around scratching my head until i 'figure it out' by 'going it alone', no im going to go to class and learn it from someone who knows.

Likewise when i want to learn to swim i dont jump in a lake and flounder around until i either drown or it clicks, i go to swimming lessons.

When i want to learn to drive i take driving lessons i dont get behind the wheel and 'go it alone'

i could list infinite examples but i wont because your point that learning knowledge from people who have it is somehow dishonourable or wrong is inane.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3188410 - 09/27/04 10:28 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

"Likewise when i want to learn to swim i dont jump in a lake and flounder around until i either drown or it clicks, i go to swimming lessons."

That is not even a comparable situation. If you were truly interested in primitive culture you would be learning about it now, not planning some mythical quest to the Amazon to have a shamanic initiation that will never seem to materialize. Shamanic initiation is not something that can be bought for a fee. It happens or it doesn't. No one you could ever meet could cause you to experience this. It could happen on the streets of New York City as easily as the Amazon...more easily probably.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3188624 - 09/27/04 11:08 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

yeesh.. since you bring it up, i am doing much to learn about shamanic cultures in every way i can, as i have mentioned numerous times. I am reading available literature on shamanism, i am studying animism and shamanism through a world religions univiresity course, i am actively pracitcing shamanic techniques and procedures whenever it is possible, but i fully realize that right now other priorities such as graduating and getting scholar ships must take precedence.

Im doing all the 'prep work' i can as well as undergoing vision quests of various kinds and spending time in solitary communion with nature.

Once i graduate from my courses i will have the time needed for the 'determined and dedicated ' process that is shamanic initiation. I realize that the process is one that must be initiated and pursued with in the self. Nevertheless it perplexes me why you find the concept of seeking out a practicing, knowledgeable shaman for instruction so insulting. Its something pretty much every authentic shaman in the world has done.

Ive said it before and ill say it again, you need to come off this spiritual elitist trip your on. You are not the only person knowledgeable about shamanism, and more importantly you do not know me nearly well enough to be making all these judgements on my life. Your basing it on nothing.

And my quest to the amazon is hardly mythical. Im going their initially at the end of this school year on a peace and development trip to costa rica, where i will live by myself with costa rican hosts, doing community development work with my class. I will see the protected rainforest then, and learn conversational spanish throughout the year.

After that (about 14 months from now) ill take my savings and go to peru with Gecko travel company to visit tropical bird conservatories, the floating reed people of the amazon, and the aztec ruins, as well as the contemporary culture... whatever this thread isnt about my travel plans, but the fact remains you dont know shit about me and your acting like a jealous little child.

I honestly dont get why someone who claims to be a learning shaman and goes on about how great the practice of shamanism is, yet he constantly attacks and criticizes me for saying i plan to do everything i can to study and practice that same tradition.

Its elitist trash and from now on you can keep those judgements to yourself

And please get this straight, i just threw in that stuff about learning survival skills as a side note, something that would be worth doing during my trip, But that is far from my purpose for traveling. In no way am i sayin that you cant learn survival skills from books or whatever, you can but all learning is easier with a knowledgeable teacher.

Anyways if you read my post youll see that stuff about swimming and driving was about something totaly diifferent and not related to shamanic initiation at all.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3189993 - 09/28/04 03:05 AM (17 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

sure i can but this is just stupid. The first guy to invent calculus did it by himself too, but im sure as fuck not gonna sit around scratching my head until i 'figure it out' by 'going it alone', no im going to go to class and learn it from someone who knows.





But this isn't Calculus we're talking about.

This is something very simple done with very simple materials through very simple means.
I mean, making a flint knife? YOU BANG TWO ROCKS TOGETHER. THAT IS NOT CALCULUS. Is it hard? Sure it is, it's not easy at least.. but it IS something you can teach yourself by sitting around with a lot of rocks and hitting them together.

And why should you take the easy route, anyway?
Hey, go for it if you want, but maybe.. maybe you should be taking the hard road?

Maybe instead of learning things from primitive societies, you should instead learn them on your own, through your own more advanced society? Hasn't been done? Maybe someone should?
Why take the easy road?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3191221 - 09/28/04 01:33 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

Hehe this is getting silly as long as the easy road takes me to the same place as the hard road, ill take the easy one. So will you. Or maybe you wont, your choice, but i see no reason why seeking out a teacher to learn skills should be objectionable to anyone

"I mean, making a flint knife? YOU BANG TWO ROCKS TOGETHER. THAT IS NOT CALCULUS." hehe ok seriously man, you dont know what the fuck your talking about, i defy you to go get as many rocks as you can get your hands on and bang them together till your hands bleed, and you just let me know how long it takes you to make a nice functional flint blade.

Keep in mind you are not allowed to look up an instructions or information. You have to take the hard road.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3191792 - 09/28/04 04:06 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

"Its elitist trash and from now on you can keep those judgements to yourself"

No it is not "elitist trash" when I see you on here talking to others like you are an expert, but pushing ideas from a Castaneda book as true shamanism. There is no doubt that Castaneda was a brilliant writer, but a writer of inspiring fiction. Your posts have merely displayed that you know nothing of the subject. The very idea you have that a shamanic initiation (also called a shamanic crisis) can be had on demand and suddenly transform you into a mythical character belies your lack of knowledge. If I were being elitist I would say that I have knowledge that you have no access to, but that is not what I am saying. All along I have been telling you that to gain this knowledge requires work, but it is not secret, hidden knowledge; it is purely public domain.

"Once i graduate from my courses i will have the time needed for the 'determined and dedicated ' process that is shamanic initiation."

You think such a thing can be scheduled, but the spirit knows nothing of dates and calendars.

"honestly dont get why someone who claims to be a learning shaman and goes on about how great the practice of shamanism"

I never made such a claim at any time. In shamanic cultures ALL people are taught to be responsible for their own spiritual growth. So, all of the people would practice shamanism to varying degrees to maintain spiritual, mental, and physical health. This is what I am doing. In our culture the responsibility for all of those things is given to others in return for money...many people avoid taking any responsibility for themselves at all. The Shaman was responsible for healing others who were beyond helping themselves.

"i just threw in that stuff about learning survival skills as a side note, something that would be worth doing during my trip"

I know this, but once again these things are essential to learning about shamanism as a close relationship with nature is a requirement. These skills can be practiced anywhere. Anyway, I am not being mean or elitist I only called your hand and you ain't holding the cards you claimed.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3192058 - 09/28/04 05:22 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

I think that the problem lies in that you felt Moonshoe was somehow boasting or claiming he was a developed shaman. This threatened you, as you have spent a great deal of time on the subject, and are more knowledgable of the ancient traditions, and thus you felt Moonshoe was not as qualified to tell others to get involved in shamanism. Moonshoe's original position however was simply that a shamanic lifestyle can be pursued by anyone - even in our "western" society here.


All reading and no action is no better than no reading yet initial action.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: deff]
    #3192088 - 09/28/04 05:28 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

No, I just hate seeing people spread erroneous information as fact. To define a shamanic lifestyle to others requires knowing what it is. Come on, I can't be threatened by words on a screen that is ridiculous. Show up at my house with a weapon and I may feel threatened, but this is the internet. Do I have an ego...certainly, but so does everyone.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3192125 - 09/28/04 05:36 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

I meant threatened not as in scared for your safety, but rather that you felt someone with seemingly less knowledge of the topic was appearing as a valid source of information. Surely all of the time you've spent in this study caused you to feel a certain way when you read his "erroneous" information, which really wasn't that erroneous, just misinterpreted.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3192130 - 09/28/04 05:37 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

" pushing ideas from a Castaneda book as true shamanism. "

Listen man, if you look at my posts you will never find me even describing castanedas stuff. In fact i never even really said much about shamanism except that its open to everyone, in this culture as well as primitive ones. "but it is not secret, hidden knowledge; it is purely public domain." on that me and you have no disagreement,
this whole argument seems to come about from you thinking that just because i used don juans terms nagual and tonal i am somehow drawing all my information from his books. Im not. I simply used those words to refer to the seen and unseen worlds, the known and not-yet-known realms.

You act like im trying to be some big expert here when all i have ever done is give a definition of shamanism from a text book and a dictionary. In addition i claim that shamanic knowledge is open to all of us.

"Your posts have merely displayed that you know nothing of the subject.'

Once again, my post have only EVER said 3 things about shamanism one: the current anthropological definition two: that this knowledge is available to all people and 3. that i intend to invest time and effort into learning and practicing the tradition. I never made any claims to great knowledge and i still dont see what it is your being so pissy about.

" The very idea you have that a shamanic initiation (also called a shamanic crisis) can be had on demand and suddenly transform you into a mythical character belies your lack of knowledge."

I never said anything like that. I never said shamanic initiation can be 'had on demand' i said i was planning to go on my own personal quest for knowledge and experience, including the shamanic knowledge and experience. I certainly never said anything about being transformed into a mythical character.

"If I were being elitist I would say that I have knowledge that you have no access to, but that is not what I am saying. '

No thats true, but what you ARE saying is that you are in some elevated position that allows you to judge my ideas methods and beliefs. You are passing judgments on my motives and my character based on little or no imformation, You are being presumptuos and arrogant. In my oppinion that is elitism. (thinking you are better)


"All along I have been telling you that to gain this knowledge requires work"

And all along I have been telling YOU that i am willing, dedicated and actively putting in that work! i am studying, reading, learning, researching and practicing.


"You think such a thing can be scheduled, but the spirit knows nothing of dates and calendars."

Thats fine and dandy but the spirit has a hard time making itself haerd when you spend your whole day running from class to class, doing research and homework and working. This is true of my own experience at least. Shamans have always sequesterd themselves away for periods of fasting, meditation, vision seeking, learning and study. That is ALL i am saying i plan to do.



"In shamanic cultures ALL people are taught to be responsible for their own spiritual growth. So, all of the people would practice shamanism to varying degrees to maintain spiritual, mental, and physical health. This is what I am doing. '

And this is also exactly what i seek to do. And once again you reafirm that your motives and desires are no different then mine, yet you continually come off as condescending, scornfull and discouraging of the very ideas and practices that you espouse.


"I know this, but once again these things are essential to learning about shamanism as a close relationship with nature is a requirement."

That is indeed why i want to learn them. the close relationship with nature is something i already develop from endless hours of solitary nature hiking and meditation. Its just the practical skills that i dont yet know as well as i should. Im just thinking that since im going to peru anyways its somewhere i could learn some skills.


" I only called your hand and you ain't holding the cards you claimed."

like i said. i never made any claims that were untrue. All i am claiming is that i want to learn .


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (09/28/04 07:04 PM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: deff]
    #3192299 - 09/28/04 07:01 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

Deff you should go into some kind of conflict mediation work. Its good work and good karma, and youd be damn good at it.

:thumbup:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: deff]
    #3192382 - 09/28/04 07:18 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

"Listen man, if you look at my posts you will never find me even describing castanedas stuff."

Really.

"The shaman realizes that the world consists of a Tonal (everything we have learned to fit into our perceptual schema and describe with language) and a nagual"

This is pure Castaneda. Really it is Castaneda's invention. The Tonal and Naugal concept as you present it is his. He even misuses Huichol words (naugal: Huichol for a werewolf) to name his own concepts and make it seem "Indian". Maybe if I hadn't read Castaneda I might be fooled into thinking you had some ancient concept on the surface.

Deff, I know what you meant, I was being humorous, but the idea that words on a screen threaten my self image is ridiculous. I would be a very weak person indeed if this were true. This forum is a source of intellectual entertainment to me, we are here to discuss. When you hit the point that you have to agree with someone in order to prevent damage to their self image or ego then that is an indication that something erroneous is occuring.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3192410 - 09/28/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

The fruit of conflict is new ideas and change.


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Asante]
    #3192477 - 09/28/04 07:38 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

Ouch.. now I know why most Tribes only have one shaman :wink:

Let's try and play it less on the man and more on topic.
Personally I believe that in the absence of a Teacher you should look within, erase allyou thought of shamanism, get in touch with nature and let the process commence before adding books to the equasion.

You can describe holding a chestnut, imagine it and feel it in, but to actually hold a chestnut, and the soul within it that could outlive you by centuries, is an entirely different affair.

Smacking flintstones to make arrowheads and scrapers is tougher then it seems, just like good flaming its done with glancing blows :grin:

Many people think eating and tripping when Native Americans and Peyote are discussed. A relationship with the Plant Teacher goes much further then that. It includes bonding with individual Peyotes without slicing them, conversing with them, gaining knowledge without eating its buttons. It is like the Wiccan Mandrake Man: you don't tend to a Mandragora man (dress it, wash it with wine under a full moon) for getting high on l-hyoscyamine, but because of the relationship between you and that forked root.

On a more mundane level many on these forums will agree that once you have GROWN Mushrooms (given them life and raising them instead of just taking their bodies) your Trips will never be the same and only then has your relationship with the Mushroom truely begun. When I grew them I felt obligated to spread their spores.

Shamanism is of all times, whether it is in a circle of stones or a circle cast with spraypaint on an empty parkinglot under the sodium lights, it is a merging, reforging of the ties with Nature.
What is asphalt but the remains of ancient microbes and pebbles, and what is concrete but sand and rock?
The time always has been the NOW. We must adhere to traditions we truely grasp but also create traditions of our own.

Let us please look at what we have in common and be respectful of our differences. Us "pagans" (its just a word) should light the path, not obscure it.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Asante]
    #3192542 - 09/28/04 07:51 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

"Ouch.. now I know why most Tribes only have one shaman"

At the risk of disagreeing...not true. There often several.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3192694 - 09/28/04 08:16 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

Touch?. The larger ones often do.
That was the mailman though, care to comment on the package?


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