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OfflineMixomatosis
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Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what?
    #3154816 - 09/20/04 02:22 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

So the other day I was reading some stuff by Wade Davis. He was describing a Colombian people who's main imperative was to be high on cocoa 24/7. Er, the men at least, the women weren't allowed to do it. And when you get married, the shaman overseeing the ceremony gets first dibs on the wife. And should one of these people be born under a lucky star they get shamanistic training which means for the first 18 years of their lives they are nocturnal and not ever allowed to see the sun or even a full moon. Some pretty fucked up shit, but hey, they live in harmony with the land and all that, so whatever.

But really, I don't see a lot of evidence out there to convince me that ancient tribal people living close to nature were any more peaceful or enlightened or anything.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3154834 - 09/20/04 02:29 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

they aren;t more enlightened, rather they laid the techniques and basic knowledges for US to carry on and become 'enlightened'... I think for their time they WERE enlightened


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #3154864 - 09/20/04 02:43 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

So if for their time they were enlightened, but not now, should we just scrap all their ideals then? Are we done with these people? Throw 'em in the meat grinder?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3154884 - 09/20/04 02:48 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I would think not... you may not dance in the rain and stare at the moon while tripping, but without the psychonaughts of the past how could one partake in a shamanistic experience? and countless other figures in the past gaining seemingly 'profound' knowledge why under the effects of other substances, even the founding fathers of America... It's important not to get caught up in exact details of the past and try to reconstruct them.. rather look at them, and fashion a means of action from your own experience


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3155087 - 09/20/04 11:30 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think what they did was important for us to know...that they were wrong...:grin:...and so that we wouldn't do the same shit. 

Maybe like 2ex said, they were enlightened for their time, but a good thing that some other people came along and said, "Wow, what stupid shit these people are doing."  Or maybe some people left the tribe and said, "Boy is that some stupid shit they make us do!"  And they went off and started a new tribe that did more enlightened shit.

All societies do stupid shit that appears not very enlightened.  Um, which society thought it was a good idea to scrape up some plants, roll it in a piece of paper, stick it in our mouths, and set it on fire?  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3155258 - 09/20/04 12:38 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

being from different places, different perspectives emerge, but you can pretty much tell when things are not fair.
life is so flexible, that many kinds of plasticity can be explored even abusive ones.

now did you say the shaman gets all the fresh girls?
maybe it is heaven to the suicide bombers!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3156195 - 09/20/04 04:27 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Look, the use of coca leaves by the people indiginous to the rain forests of South America is not a misuse of drugs or hazardous to their health in any serious fashion. The concentration of the drug in the leaves is unlike the refined product. It provides a high of about the same magnitude as drinking coffee and is about as addictive (I mean in the unrefined state). I know as I have chewed coca before. Furthermore, the chewing of the leaves wards off intestinal parasites and helps maintain oral hygeine. I am sure there are those who abuse it, but those individuals exist within any society...just look at all the drunks in ours, but that does not mean the average western person is a drunk.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3156217 - 09/20/04 04:30 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It is also worth noting that the training of a shaman is a complex process surrounded with ritual. This is as it should be. Don't let ethnocentrism cloud your judgement.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3156242 - 09/20/04 04:34 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

supremely selective logic

I could name a billion incidents of atrocities in urbanized societys as well, just as you could for tribal societies. The differance is that their is not one incidence of a tribal people directly causing mass species extinction, or the destruction of ireplacable ecosystems.
Both civilized and primitize people do nasty things, but only one of those groups threatens to destroy life on earth as we know it.

And, one example is not valid criteria for judging such a huge group


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3156472 - 09/20/04 05:15 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But really, I don't see a lot of evidence out there to convince me that ancient tribal people living close to nature were any more peaceful or enlightened or anything. 




Tribal societies are in tune with their land.They live off of it and feed the land back in return.They appreciated the land,the animals,the plants...all life.Most societies viewed life as sacred,divine.They did not kill like we do.When we kill today its very thoughtless and wasteful.We disrepect the land,the animals,the plants...all that nature offers up to us.We have no respect for it and waste it.We steal resources and destroy the land.We take what was never ours.These people knew how harmful this was and would never dream of hurting the land or the earth in such a way.

The killing and waste production that goes on today in its many forms is so very vile.Yet...Most people dont seem to mind it.They are so far removed from nature.We treat land and most life on this earth like garbage.Expendable garbage at that.

We commit violence for petty reasons.We abuse one another greatly for fun or to make other sufer like we do.We kill over tiny things or over a few dollars.We disown family for tiny life choices that dont even affect us.We throw away people because society teaches everything is disposable and expendable.We are taught violence is ok within certain limits.We breed hatred,destruction,etc.

Our tribal ancestors were never like this.They were never so removed from nature especially true human nature.When they killed if they did it was for survival not greed or petty reasons like today.When they killed animals occasionally for food they utilized as much of it as they could out of respect for the divine life of the animal.Today we butcher animals by millions and dont care.Alot of it ends up as waste.They made the best of the land they had and gave back to it and enriched the soil.Today we rape the land of its fertility and then leave it barren and move on to new pieces of land.Sometimes we enrich it just enough to make money but when we are done we leave it barren anyway.Our ancestors never did this.They took care of the land.They respected it.

They didnt take to greed,hatred,etc.They shared resources and owned little to nothing.Most tribes shared everything and no one owned anything.This included the sharing of women in alot of societies.They know nothing of jealousy hatred and other such animalistic selfish desires. :sad:

Women were divine to many tribal societies and were well taken care of...today b/c of greed hatred jealousy etc 1 in 4 to 1 in 3 women get beat or have been beaten severely.

Today we spit on everything (figuratively) and respect nothing we should.

Our ancestors would be outraged at such desecration and I for one am very appalled and disgusted at societal behaviour.

I think that had in fact these societies remained instead of being lost like they are that the world and the environment especially would be a million times better off.

Once we were a proud people of this planet who live according to our true nature and the way we were intended to live.Now were a sad pathetic selfish people who are inhuman and cold and lifeless and have lost our way to the path we were intended to walk.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3156620 - 09/20/04 05:51 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Don't let ethnocentrism cloud your judgement.

Then what should we use to cloud our judgement?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Swami]
    #3156728 - 09/20/04 06:18 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You should let nothing cloud your judgement as much as you are able. This is hard to do for anyone. Anthropologists who study other cultures often warn against ethnocentrism (judging other cultures by the morals and mores of your culture) in order to gather empirical scientific data. If you let moral judgements cloud your interpretation you may just miss the point of the thing you are trying to study.

What?!! Your supposed to be on vacation!!! I thought I was safe here...did you come off vacation just to fuck with me???


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3157026 - 09/20/04 07:40 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

its a very selective kind of vacation, as ive noticed


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3157192 - 09/20/04 08:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

it depends on your prespective... if you look at trible colture you'd find some of the bad stuff that you find today but if you look at the individuals i think you'll see they had much more "life" then we do today...

i've been listening to alot of terance mekenna lately and he has this thing he keeps talking about... forward ascape!
no one expects humans to regress back to rural life becouse it can't be done! you'll have no means of feeding everyone and "progress" will be stopped... so you need something new to ascape to!
some big change in the way we live (which you don't see happening... some of the people here think there's a change coming on and maybe that change is this forward ascape... doing away with the crap in our societies and building on the good stuff who knows where that'll take us)

what everyone keeps talking about here is finding the balance betwine being human (which involves alot of things we've stopped doing and that's way you question these methods of "going back to our roots") and progressing in our society...
so it's not just going back... it's also moving farward but this time building on "solid" ground :smile:


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3157449 - 09/20/04 09:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tribal societies are in tune with their land.They live off of it and feed the land back in return.They appreciated the land,the animals,the plants...all life.




And that is why the wooly mammoth, the horse, the camel et al are now extinct from the American continents, as well as all Australian mammals larger than a nasty kangaroo. Er, what?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3157714 - 09/20/04 10:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

There is no doubt that ancient Native American societies had more respect for the land and the animals on it than our society does today. They realized that their survival depended upon nature and also realized the destructive nature of man. They had developed philosophies of life that viewed man as part of the cycle of nature and fully subject to it. They apologised to the souls of the animals they killed for food in order to show their recognition of the sacrifice that animal had made so that they may live. When they took wood from a tree for a bow they did it without killing the tree by chiseling the bow blank out of the side of the tree in such a way as to reduce the impact on the tree. In the Pacific North there are many still living trees that bear these marks. When they killed for food they wasted NOTHING and used every part of the animal. This was as much out of respect for nature as out of necessity. The extinction of the Ice Age mammals had little to do with hunting pressure from man and much to do with the climate shift that occured then. Your argument does not hold water in the face of what we know of anthropology and history. Ascribing the negative traits of your culture to a totally alien culture because you are ignorant of their ways is foolish and creates a historically inaccurate picture.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3157737 - 09/20/04 10:38 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"And that is why the wooly mammoth, the horse, the camel et al are now extinct from the American continents, as well as all Australian mammals larger than a nasty kangaroo. Er, what? '

um... are you suggesting that tribal hunter gatherer societies caused the extinciton of these animals? Id like to see some evidence of that.


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Swami]
    #3157873 - 09/20/04 11:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Don't let ethnocentrism cloud your judgement.

Then what should we use to cloud our judgement?



Jack Daniels


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: silversoul7]
    #3158427 - 09/21/04 01:10 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the handy tip. :smile:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3158469 - 09/21/04 01:23 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

sure the natives had respect for the land, and we can learn a lot from them. 

at the same time, I remember reading about this tribe in peru who would go out to war and they would capture prisoners.  then they would have this ceremony where they would kill the prisoner, skin all the flesh off of the bone of their enemies, and dance around with their skeletons.

just like in every time, there is the good and the not so good :wink:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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