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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3166305 - 09/22/04 08:38 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

it is not the psychotropics themselves that i am interested in so much as getting the cultural wisdom and context in which these drugs were traditionally done. I feel it would be a waste to do those drugs without a teacher to fit the experience into some meaningfull ccontext...


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3166641 - 09/22/04 09:57 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

" while making thousands to millions off these tribal people and giving them nothing."



should they want anything? should they want money?


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Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Todcasil]
    #3166855 - 09/22/04 10:39 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Whether they should ant anything is irrelevant.It isnt right to exploit cultures especially against the wishes of these tribes and cheapening their sacred objects to nothing more than "cool" decor.

It is a major desecration.It would be like taking the american flag that most americans hold dear t them and publicly pissing all over it and slander america.This is in essence what these people are doing to these tribal people except on a mass scale.

Some of these tribes Im sure do want money as compensation at the least b/c some tribes are struggling very badly due to a number of reasons.However I cannot and will not speak for another tribe or culture.

Alot of american companies and people lie to tribal people and cultures offering better health care and education and the younger members fall for these promises but in the end they never deliver.Once they have what they want they leave.Leaving the habitat ruined or cheapening scared items and leaving them with nothing in return on top of it.

All these companies care about is making money.They could care less that many tribes were forced from their homes due to destruction of habitat,pollution,too much noise,etc.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3166923 - 09/22/04 10:53 PM (17 years, 29 days ago)

I agree with Hue. on this one.Traditional,serious real shaman dont normally deal with outsiders period.Often times they wont even deal with outsiders even if they are of the same nationality/tribe/culture as they are. It takes alot to gain the approval/respect of the shaman and is near impossible to do.These tribes especially do not trust the white man because most of them have been ripped off and badly exploited by white people promising illusions of grandeur and giving them nothing after all is said and done.

To visit these tribes and promote their culture among their youth is good but its doubtful most tribes will let you be that involved in their culture/tribe.There are a few programs that reward/encourage some tribes youth to seek to be a shaman/medicine man.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3167528 - 09/23/04 12:19 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

This "cultural wisdom" is often culture specific too.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3168335 - 09/23/04 02:51 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

"This "cultural wisdom" is often culture specific too. "

what does that mean?


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3168348 - 09/23/04 02:55 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Cultural specific wisdom means it really only has relevance to that culture.For example,An example of cultural specific wisdom would be learning how to use local flora to heal,things relating to their way of life and/or religion/spirituality and history/folklore etc.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3168401 - 09/23/04 03:06 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

They hunted for animal for clothing,food,bone wepons and tools,etc.They didnt purposely hunt them into extinction.They hunted like they always did.A few species became extinct over hundreds of thousands of years.Compared to the dozens and dozens of species lost within the last 150 years.We are more ecocidal than anyother time in history.We are also responsible for killing more species by human intervention than any other time.





Yes, but their extinction is not OUR intent, either.

I mean, I've never heard anyone say "Fawkin whales! Ill be glad when those bastards are gone yarr!"

Early humans can and did hunt large mammals on all continents to extinction, with the exception really of Africa -- where the large mammals will either eat you or trample you. Most large African animals are also completely unfit to ever consider being domesticated, I would say due to many thousands of years of having to put up with us.

They didn't know what their actions would do. We do, and still don't always act to prevent them.. but we're starting to!

On one hand, innocence through ignorance.. and the other, guilt through imperfection.

Give us some credit. We're just children, really. The knowledge of exinction, while ancient by our estimates, is relatively new all considered... we'll adjust, we'll get better, and eventually you won't be able to compare us to an ancient society to our detriment -- we will both know AND act.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3168481 - 09/23/04 03:29 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Yes, but their extinction is not OUR intent, either.

I mean, I've never heard anyone say "Fawkin whales! Ill be glad when those bastards are gone yarr!"





No perhaps not bent on their extinction.However,these people who hunnt whales KNOW exactly what theyre doing is not only illegal in most if not all places but it is also killing off whales to such an extent they may soon become extinct.They know exactly what their actions are causing and do it anyway because whale meat can go for a pretty penny a pound.I think its like 100 dollars per pound of edible meat.

Quote:

Early humans can and did hunt large mammals on all continents to extinction, with the exception really of Africa -- where the large mammals will either eat you or trample you. Most large African animals are also completely unfit to ever consider being domesticated, I would say due to many thousands of years of having to put up with us.





Very few species became extinct due to hunting but we cannot say for sure that it was purely hunting that killed some of these species off.Climate changes or other factors could have lent a hand.In the last 150 years or so we have killed off more than a few species.Not to mention all the fungi/plants lost especially in the rainforests.

Everyday more and more species become endangered or closer to it.We all know what were doing but many of us do so anyway out of lack of care or for the money.


Few species are/were lost accidentally.Most know especially nowadays what theyre doing to populations.Some deny it others dont care.Big companies are responsible for alot of eco related damage.

Quote:

Give us some credit. We're just children, really. The knowledge of exinction, while ancient by our estimates, is relatively new all considered... we'll adjust, we'll get better, and eventually you won't be able to compare us to an ancient society to our detriment -- we will both know AND act.




As far as time on this earth we're not children.As far as our current way of life.Settled and contained societies that are stationary and evolved.Its fairly new I suppose.

Science which is the leading cause of problem is really new.Maybe the last 100 to 150 years really.Although it started with Alchemy long before that.In the last 50 years tho technology and science grows so quickly that we are churning out chemical after chemical and item after item without knowing what theyw ill do to us or the environment.This is foolish and ignorant in my opinion.We need full research and long term analysis before it goes public not decades after.This is why many things especially medical things are recalled or shown to have deleterious effects.

We need awareness the most these days.Especially ecological awareness before there isnt much of one left to worry about.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3168940 - 09/23/04 07:11 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

It means that it lacks validity outside of the native culture.


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Offlinebutterflydawn
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3168964 - 09/23/04 07:29 AM (17 years, 29 days ago)

we fucked !
not they
we dropped the ball...


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lucidal expansion


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3169058 - 09/23/04 08:57 AM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly

The image is gripping: a handsome American Indian with a sad, tear-filled eye offers the simple message, "Pollution: It's a Crying Shame." This 1970s anti-pollution advertisement, which reached millions of people, helped entrench the notion that Indians treated the land kindly and white invaders spoiled it. Not so, says anthropologist Krech, in this compelling, if somewhat incomplete, examination of the historical truths and romantic myths about Native Americans and their relationship with nature. Acknowledging that Indians clearly possessed vast knowledge of their environment, Krech contends that this knowledge was often merged with a religious cosmogony that left little room for conservation as it is understood today. Indians may have treated the individual animals upon which they preyed with great respect in order to avoid offending their spirits, but this view did not prevent occasional overhunting or depletion of resources, according to Krech. If the New World seemed like a rich Eden to European immigrants, Krech contends it was because the populations of Native Americans were too small to have made much of a difference in their environments before they were overtaken by the newcomers' resource-based economy. To prove his points, Krech closely examines the role Native Americans played in a variety of environmental histories, from Pleistocene extinctions to the demise of the buffalo. Yet he overlooks what was one of the greatest single animal-based economies of precontact times, the vast subsistence salmon fisheries of western North America. (Aug.)
Copyright 1999 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.


From Library Journal
A popular question of debate has centered on the Native American relationship to the environment. Were they the first environmentalists, conservationists who neither wasted nor altered their natural resources? Krech (anthropology, Brown Univ.) addresses this cherished American myth by reviewing archaeological, oral, and written records and applying them to a few specific cases. The Native Americans, like all peoples, altered their environments, responded to climatic changes, adjusted to times of... read more

Book Description

The idea of the Native American living in perfect harmony with nature is one of the most cherished contemporary myths. But how truthful is this larger-than-life image? According to anthropologist Shepard Krech, the first humans in North America demonstrated all of the intelligence, self-interest, flexibility, and ability to make mistakes of human beings anywhere. As Nicholas Lemann put it in The New Yorker, "Krech is more than just a conventional-wisdom overturner; he has a serious larger point to make. . . . Concepts like ecology, waste, preservation, and even the natural (as distinct from human) world are entirely anachronistic when applied to Indians in the days before the European settlement of North America."


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: butterflydawn]
    #3169060 - 09/23/04 08:58 AM (17 years, 28 days ago)

A recent study, "Wild in the Woods: The Myth of the Noble Eco-Savage" by Robert Whelan (London: Institute of Economic Affairs, 1999), documents the many ways in which pre-Columbian man absolutely ravaged his environment.

For starters, Native Americans were big forest burners. Indeed, before the white man came to this hemisphere there was virtually no virgin forest because it had all repeatedly been burned. The reason is simple. Forests had almost no value to Native Americans and interfered with hunting. Says Whelan, "The species which the Indians most wanted to hunt, like bison, moose, elk and deer, are found most easily in areas of recently burnt forest, which is why they burnt the forests over and over again."

Moreover, Native Americans often burned forests simply for fun. The great American explorers Lewis and Clark recorded that Indians in the Rocky Mountains would set trees on fire "as after-dinner entertainment; the huge trees would explode like Roman candles in the night."

When hunting, Native Americans were not shy about using extremely brutal methods, with no concern whatsoever for sportsmanship. A favorite buffalo hunting technique was to stampede huge herds of them over cliffs. Many such Buffalo jump sites have been found in the West, some with remains of as many as 300,000 buffalo.

Furthermore, Native Americans often hunted animals into extinction. Among those that disappeared due to Native American over-hunting are the woolly mammoth, saber-toothed tiger, giant sloth, giant beaver, camel, horse, two-toed horse and dire wolf, according to environmental writer Alston Chase. Australian Aborigines and the Maoris of New Zealand were also responsible for hunting numerous species into extinction long before white men arrived on the scene.

Such extinctions are unsurprising given the Native Americans' utter disregard for conservation. For example, they hunted prime age female animals most heavily, because they had greater stores of fat and better hides.

Native religious ceremonies also contributed to extinctions. Women of the Crow Tribe wore dresses decorated with the teeth of 350 elk. In Hawaii, natives made beautiful capes from the feathers of as many as 80,000 birds, some of which became extinct in the process.

Finally, it should be noted that Native Americans didn't treat the earth any better than they treated the wildlife. Soil erosion was common long before white settlements were established. When the land became exhausted, Native Americans simply moved on. The idea that they treated the land with special reverence simply has no basis outside the imaginations of gullible utopians.

The truth is that in many ways we treat the land better today than pre-Columbian man did, are better conservationists and stewards of the environment. Earth Day enthusiasts should cease celebrating an Eden that never was.

Source: Bruce Bartlett, senior fellow, National Center for Policy Analysis, April 19, 2000.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Gomp]
    #3169862 - 09/23/04 02:22 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
I'm impossible to beat in a debate
as i take no stand ;P heeh




Then you were never in a debate  :smirk:


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NariusFractal]
    #3169909 - 09/23/04 02:32 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Mixamatosis, id like you to pay close attention to swami's last posts (the articles) as they demonstrate the appropraite, intelligent, mature response to a question like "id like to see some evidence of that"

Heres how it goes: me: id like to see some evidence of that
Swami: ok heres some evidence

:thumbup:


compare to your response, which reminds me of trying to debate with a methemphetamine addict

Me: are you suggesting that tribal hunter gatherer societies caused the extinciton of these animals?

You: ()*&^()&^S FUCKIN YES HOLY SHIT ignorance alert!


DUDE DUDE read a fucking book before you open your mouth! You know I'm a genius with a photographic memory and I'm impossible to beat in a debate right??

:thumbdown:


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3170043 - 09/23/04 03:06 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

compare to your response, which reminds me of trying to debate with a methemphetamine addict

Me: are you suggesting that tribal hunter gatherer societies caused the extinciton of these animals?

You: ()*&^()&^S FUCKIN YES HOLY SHIT ignorance alert!


DUDE DUDE read a fucking book before you open your mouth! You know I'm a genius with a photographic memory and I'm impossible to beat in a debate right??





:lol: :lol: :lol:


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3170051 - 09/23/04 03:08 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

"Cultural specific wisdom means it really only has relevance to that culture.For example,An example of cultural specific wisdom would be learning how to use local flora to heal,things relating to their way of life and/or religion/spirituality and history/folklore etc. "

I dont think their is any wisdom that is truly culturally exclusive. When you get beyond the myths and symbols, the true 'meat' of any teaching is applicable on a universal level. I mean stuff like local flora and fauna is obvious, because in todays world their is no such thing really, we use medicines from all over the world. And any myth or legend contains messages that address universal human questions.

Basically i dont think their is any culture so alien from us that we cannot make use of their wisdom and ideas in our own life. Check out my shamanism thread.

Im especially interested in how HUE reconciles his belief that wisdom from primitive tribes is meaninfless outside of the cultural context with his assertion that he studies and practices shamanism. Isnt that contradictory?


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Swami]
    #3171083 - 09/23/04 07:33 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Yes, this is true...we now know that forest fires are better controlled by having controlled burns in the forest. Our Native American ancestors knew this as well. It also stops undergrowth and allows the trees and animals to flourish. Very good point.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3171410 - 09/23/04 08:37 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

"I dont think their is any wisdom that is truly culturally exclusive"

In many native societies when people get too old to care for themselves they go off into the wilderness to die so they won't burden their tribe with the care. This is out of necessity for the tribe's survival. So, are you booting your old granny out into the woods and telling her to go off and die so you don't got to bother with her? That is just one example. I could go on, but it would be better for you to learn something of the lifestyles of such people.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3172336 - 09/23/04 11:20 PM (17 years, 28 days ago)

yeah i know what you mean some of their wisdom isnt needed for my situation, but i think much of it is thats all. As long as your not saying western society cant learn from tribal cultures


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Everything I post is fiction.


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