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Post deleted by Anno [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3158471 - 09/21/04 01:24 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3158496 - 09/21/04 01:29 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

double post..


Edited by Mixomatosis (09/21/04 01:31 AM)


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3158498 - 09/21/04 01:29 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

The killing and waste production that goes on today in its many forms is so very vile.
Blah blah I mentioned this above, we're gross we all know that's the prevailing point of view, this post is about changing our perspective a bit. Get ready, new ideas and information are about to be plugged into yoru fertile little brain.

are you suggesting that tribal hunter gatherer societies caused the extinciton of these animals?
()*&^()&^S FUCKIN YES HOLY SHIT ignorance alert!

Id like to see some evidence of that.
DUDE DUDE read a fucking book before you open your mouth! You know I'm a genius with a photographic memory and I'm impossible to beat in a debate right?? Start with The Future of Life by Edward Wilson (a top biologist and environmentalist and founder of the science known as conservation biology and coiner of such terms as biodiversity. Also 2 time pulitzer prize winning author). He'll lay it down for you. The short of it is that the megafauna of Africa were able to survive the emergence of homo sapien sapiens because they evolved alongside our hunting techniques. When H.S.S moved out of Africa we caused massive extinctions of the megafauna on every continent. 30 M long pythons of Australia, giant kangaroo, the American giant ground sloth, all kinds of big flightless birds. Go look it up.

So what have we learned so far? Stone-age primitive hunter gatherers were fully capable and willing to commit ecocide.

When they killed if they did it was for survival not greed or petty reasons like today.
Nope. They killed for the same reasons. Our modern techno-machine requires oil fields. We go and kill for it. In the paleolithic they needed hunting grounds, and they would kill for it. Hunter gatherers like the Haida and many throughout the Americas took slaves and wiped out rival tribes. Check books like One River by Wade Davis and read up on the natives of western BC. They killed for greed, accept it. I've visited sites in Nevada and Utah where natives built stone huts on cliff faces so they could fight off murderous cannibals. Read the book Man Corn for an extremely detailed account of this bloodthirsty practice complete with high-level archeological information.

the use of coca leaves by the people indiginous to the rain forests of South America is not a misuse of drugs
I never made that claim. And I never mentioned what I thought cocoa leaves were like compared to cocaine. Remember last round when I called you on your reading comprehension skills dozens of times in one thread?

When they killed for food they wasted NOTHING
Dude what the fuck you think hot dogs are? Choice cuts? Please don't buy their meats, but acknowledge that economic pressures are the same in the modern world and factory farms don't like waste either.

Women were divine to many tribal societies and were well taken care of
Not always. I've read lots about women being marginalized, controlled and opressed by primitive tribal people. By our modern cultural standards there is a lot of what we would call inequality going on in these cultures.

Now were a sad pathetic selfish people
Woah woah claw at your own flesh keep your demented self-hatred to yourself.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: ]
    #3158516 - 09/21/04 01:33 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You've got to be kidding me.
YOU'VE got to be kidding ME if you're going to actually say that you don't believe and have never read about native hunter gatherers causing mass extinction. I'm glad you're all learning at least ONE thing tonight.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3159025 - 09/21/04 07:40 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stone-age primitive hunter gatherers were fully capable and willing to commit ecocide.





They hunted for animal for clothing,food,bone wepons and tools,etc.They didnt purposely hunt them into extinction.They hunted like they always did.A few species became extinct over hundreds of thousands of years.Compared to the dozens and dozens of species lost within the last 150 years.We are more ecocidal than anyother time in history.We are also responsible for killing more species by human intervention than any other time.

Quote:

Nope. They killed for the same reasons. Our modern techno-machine requires oil fields. We go and kill for it. In the paleolithic they needed hunting grounds, and they would kill for it. Hunter gatherers like the Haida and many throughout the Americas took slaves and wiped out rival tribes. Check books like One River by Wade Davis and read up on the natives of western BC. They killed for greed, accept it. I've visited sites in Nevada and Utah where natives built stone huts on cliff faces so they could fight off murderous cannibals. Read the book Man Corn for an extremely detailed account of this bloodthirsty practice complete with high-level archeological information.





Tribes rarely ever killed for hunting grounds.It wasnt common.Unlike today where we have had many major wars wiping out millions and millions in the last 150 years.People kill each other by the thousands daily over a few dollars or small objects.Cannibal tribes were very few and far in between.Most tribes were not cannibals and most cannibal tribes ate their ancestors and families who died.They did not generally kill in greed like we so commonly do daily.Killing for hunting grounds is not neccessarily out of greed.Survival is another reason they may have taken hunting grounds.

Quote:

Dude what the fuck you think hot dogs are? Choice cuts? Please don't buy their meats, but acknowledge that economic pressures are the same in the modern world and factory farms don't like waste either.





For one companies try not to waste out of economic greed.They want to maximize profits as much as possible.But in fact they do still create ALOT of animal waste.Tons of meat and animals each year goes to waste and they kill animals so mindlessly.They inject them full of hormones and slaughter them by the millions.Natives never disrespected animals by treating them in such a manner.They gave prayer and respect to each animal they took and were thankful for each life they took.They never took life lightly like we do.Natives took care of their animal brothers.

Quote:

Not always. I've read lots about women being marginalized, controlled and opressed by primitive tribal people. By our modern cultural standards there is a lot of what we would call inequality going on in these cultures.





Most often women were treated greatly.Were they equals?No.Not usually.But in alot of tribes there were some professions/skills only women could do.Such as in some tribal cultures only women became shaman and shaman were held in high esteem.In nearly all cultures women were highly respected as mothers.They recognized only women had the divine power to give birth to another being.

Quote:

Woah woah claw at your own flesh keep your demented self-hatred to yourself.




I have no self-hatred.I have hatred toward this society and what it has devolved to.In the last 50 years we have done more irreversible and general damage to this planet than ANY other time period and more than the entire 4 billion or so estimated years of existence of this planet.In 50 years we have managed to jeopardize the future of this planet and all its inhabitants.Something our native ancestors never did.They had great respect for mother earth.Today we mine her internal organs.We strip her of resources.We destroy the majority of forests.We slaughter animals in record numbers.We blacken the skies and poison our rivers.We are a parasite upon mother earth.Whats worst is we know better than any other time yet we do it anyway.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3159391 - 09/21/04 12:51 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'm impossible to beat in a debate
as i take no stand ;P heeh


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3160567 - 09/21/04 05:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

All I have to say at this moment is that the first post, and many of the subsequent posts in this thread are totally ignorant, racist, and fucking gross (not to mention lacking significant information and analysis.) It sure is fun to point and laugh at other cultures isn't it?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3160741 - 09/21/04 05:50 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I am afraid that this time you are in need of the ignorance alert. I have spent over 10 years studying the ways of tribal cultures, and while man by his very nature is destructive, primitive cultures had many habits that mitigated this damage. One such habit was being nomadic. Most primitive tribes follow migration routes which limits the damage that can be done in one place. Tribes that tend to be stationary are the ones who developed agriculture like the South Eastern American Indian tribes. Agriculture limits the damage wrought on the surrounding plant life. Agricultural tribes also tend not to have their hunting grounds nearby. They travel several days to their hunting areas at only certain times of the year. This allows time for a recovery in the animal population. Only casual hunting was done near the villages of these people. Most primitive peoples understood conservation well...their survival depended on it. If one studied the aborigines of Australia they would find that these people were nomadic as well and shared many of the same hunting characteristics to the nomadic tribes of North and South America. As I have already mentioned, these people tended to have philosophies of living that frowned on wasting life. Your statements about this are totally unfounded and based on popular myth created by those who wish to justify their own destructivness. I could go on for quite some time explaining the habits of primitive tribal people, but it would be pointless...so maybe it would be good for you to read a good book on the subject. Now I do not think that we are a sad pathetic people, but we can always learn from our forefathers.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/21/04 09:16 PM)


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3161660 - 09/21/04 09:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I would never hesitate to generalize that the stone-age hunter gatherer way of life is harmonious in that it's sustainable over the extremely long-term. There's no doubt about that. What makes me lift my eyebrows and cough up hairballs are statements like "Tribal people never hunted animals to extinction" or "Tribal people were always really peaceful."

Give our species' diversity some credit! I'm not claiming that tribal people are destructive and evil as a rule, I'm simply fleshing out their character and humanizing them with some information that pokes holes in the above blanket generalizations.

Through my own research I've been only impressed with the symbiosis they share with their environments.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3161690 - 09/21/04 09:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

No they are not peaceful, but neither is the nature of man. We are warlike animals. As far as hunting animals to extinction...I don't think they had the technology even if they had wanted to. The Mammoths were victims of climate change I believe, and the Buffalo were killed out by a combination of several bad winters and the rise of guns across the plains of the southwest


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #3161716 - 09/21/04 09:23 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, Niamnhyx, don't get all flustered. There's nary a teet of racism runnin' about here. In my first post I chose to share some especially repulsive aspects of a specific culture who share a place among the most revered people in new age circles and on this board: The Stone-age tribal hunter gatherer society. It's simply a "hey, look, seems like generalizations have failed to accurately describe people yet again!"

Now let's all go home and add a few dimensions to our perception of tribal people and thereby our species in general. Isn't this a fun excercise?


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3161886 - 09/21/04 09:50 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

No they are not peaceful, but neither is the nature of man. We are warlike animals.
Yeah, that's basically the point I was trying to make.

As far as hunting animals to extinction...I don't think they had the technology even if they had wanted to.
I've come across extensive descriptions of the mass extinctions that followed our species' migration outside of Africa by Edward Wilson and Jared Diamond.. on page 42 of Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel he lists:

giant kangaroos
rhinolike marsupials called diprotodonts
cow-size marsupial "lepeoards"
400 pound flightless bird
one-ton lizard
giant pythons
land crocodiles

as some of the species that dissapeared from the australian continent in very short amount of time just after the first humans migrated there. There's a story like this on all the continents that didn't have protohomonids running around before modern humans showed up. Our hunting skills were too good and the animals didn't get a chance to wisen up to our ways before we killed them off in what Diamond describes as an "extinction spasm."


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3162278 - 09/21/04 10:51 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

damn i would have liked to live to see the one ton lizard and the land crocodile.

Apparently whales once walked bipedally too, before the ascent of homo habilus forced them to adapt to oceanic life. The blue whale used to be called 'the great strider' by south-korean eskimo hunters.


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OfflineBanJankri
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Frog]
    #3162708 - 09/22/04 12:23 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)


Its good thing for us to know that they were wrong? that we wouldnt do the same shit?

what are you talking about. The shit that is going on around the world in our modern societies, are you guys blind? do you call this era we are living in enlightened? and you think we have progressed so much that you can just write topics asking whether shamanic societies are fucked up? not being able to learn what ethnocentrism is and trying to evaluate the cultures with your "modern" worldview? trying to compare species loss in the primitive era and now? the negative effects of human beings on nature, in the past and now?

just dont forget one thing. in the past, humans respected nature. they had learned to live in harmony with it. This was changed when various tools were invented, and when humans tried to overcome nature and control it, use it in an arrogant way.

just dont forget a quote from aldo leopold.
"We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."

it isnt hard to guess which approach modern societies tend to favor is it?

RESPECT


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3163736 - 09/22/04 08:23 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

i think the actual question is stupid...
when people say we should give up everything and go back to the basic stuff i dont think they mean regress back to trible society!!!
it means be more human and less bullshit!

trible people had the use of their body AND mind (all we have is our mind and our money... too many people forgot about the use of their body) of course there's no way to go back to that kind of situation... but we have to give up all the bullshit and build from there other wise we'll crumble...


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or what? [Re: BanJankri]
    #3164217 - 09/22/04 12:31 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

they had learned to live in harmony with it.
A few posts above I agreed with this exact statement. My only point was to bring up a few points that blew statements like "primitive indigineous people were perfect." This is not a difficult excercise but it is surprising to discover how few people are unaware of the mass extinctions caused by our primitive ancestors, for example.


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3165166 - 09/22/04 04:18 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"In my first post I chose to share some especially repulsive aspects of a specific culture who share a place among the most revered people in new age circles and on this board"

I agree, I think that new age, trend oriented thought is becoming an acceptable replacement for true spiritual growth. Many of these folk try to see primitive people as stargazing new agers. I think that this robs them of their culture as surely as clearing their forests. There are very few primitive tribes left in the world. In the Amazon rain forest new age tourists have contributed heavily to the degradation of many primitive cultures by forcing them to accept a tourist economy dependant on the selling of souvenirs and "shamans" have become a dime a dozen to administer ayahuasca to the upscale new age visitors looking to have a "vision quest".


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3165230 - 09/22/04 04:31 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I agree, I think that new age, trend oriented thought is becoming an acceptable replacement for true spiritual growth. Many of these folk try to see primitive people as stargazing new agers. I think that this robs them of their culture as surely as clearing their forests. There are very few primitive tribes left in the world. In the Amazon rain forest new age tourists have contributed heavily to the degradation of many primitive cultures by forcing them to accept a tourist economy dependant on the selling of souvenirs and "shamans" have become a dime a dozen to administer ayahuasca to the upscale new age visitors looking to have a "vision quest". 




I think that remaining tribal cultures should be preserved and not changed or corrupted in any way.A large problem especially among south american tribes is the fact that more modern cultures tell and convey ideas to the young tribal people that their shamans/medicine men are worthless and their way is outdated and also worthless.They teach them that modern medicine is great and their medicine and ways are not.They corrupt these tribes heavily destroying their culture.They also sometimes give them modern food and other heavily refined items causing them to abandon their local food sometimes and causing them to grow fat.The pima indians are an example of a culture of obese tribal people as a result of being introduced to modern heavily refined foods.

What is also very alarming is how white tourists visit these tribal people then steal their relics,statues,religious items and mass produce them and they remain ignorant of their true meaning while making thousands to millions off these tribal people and giving them nothing.They constantly steal from these people.In south america there is also a huge problem with oil companies invading their land and stealing oil and destroying land and poisoning rivers with petroleum runoff.It embeds in the sediment and the river looks clean but if you poke the bottom huge clouds of crude oil fill the area of the river.These people are also gaining many afflictions and diseases due to exposure to toxic petroleum products and crude oil.

Our people today, (and by our people I mean the entire world) have become very money hungry and driven by greed and now these cultures are paying the price. :sad: :sad: :sad:


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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3166068 - 09/22/04 07:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)


"What is also very alarming is how white tourists visit these tribal people then steal their relics,statues,religious items and mass produce them and they remain ignorant of their true meaning while making thousands to millions off these tribal people and giving them nothing.They constantly steal from these people.In south america there is also a huge problem with oil companies invading their land and stealing oil and destroying land and poisoning rivers with petroleum runoff.It embeds in the sediment and the river looks clean but if you poke the bottom huge clouds of crude oil fill the area of the river.These people are also gaining many afflictions and diseases due to exposure to toxic petroleum products and crude oil.
"

i agree that this is one of the most sever tragedies in the world today. My first goal after i finish school is to trael through central and south america, visiting the rainforest and tribal cultures. My plan is to learn as much as i can in a non judgmental, non invasive way so that some of their knowledge and memory can at least be preserved.
I suspect hue would call me a new age defiler of tribal purity because i intend to locate a shaman/ medicine man in the hopes of undertaking shamanic initiation and education (and take psychotropics)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Are tribal stone-age shamanistic societies fucked or wha [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3166148 - 09/22/04 08:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

That is correct...unless you have a degree in anthropology who is interested in studying them as an anthropologist. Any of the psychotropics they employ are mostly easy to obtain and legal. Information on how to use them is very available...just look on this forum and you will find an expert on whatever you are interested in. I myself have used ayahuasca, prepared by myself in a traditional manner, on over a dozen occasions, and the same goes for cimora. There is no reason to travel to the rainforest to get that. Sadly, though, there are few truely primitive cultures left there that are not in remote locations and hostile to young new agers. The "shamans" are plentiful though, you'll find as many as you can afford. Tourism has created a cultural genocide as it brings money into the equation. When money comes in television and automobiles follow, but go if you must, I really doubt that there is a legitimate shaman there who will have dealings with a white man. You would have better luck with the Native Americans of the southwest as many young Native Americans are not interested in learning the spiritual traditions. The Native American Church would be a good starting point.


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