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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Question for theists [Re: silversoul7]
    #3197286 -

God is not a sentient being and certainly possesses no will that demands something of me. I simply exist, as part of god.

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Re: Question for theists [Re: silversoul7]
    #3197390 -

What demands?

If there were any, I'd be pretty inclined to not disobey The Creator of All The Universe who could strike me with lightning any time he damn well-pleases. Which was one of the scariest thoughts when I took this stamp, and put me on a bad one, lol.


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/opinion
.sean

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Re: Question for theists [Re: entiformatie]
    #3197420 -

entiformatie said:
What demands?


I don't know. Maybe something like this:

1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.

5. Thou shalt not kill.

6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

7. Thou shalt not steal.

8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Question for theists [Re: silversoul7]
    #3197887 -

pssssh, that's not God. That's man pretending to be God. God doesn't need to make demands of it's creations. They do in accordance with his will, willingly or not.
This is all assuming If God were a diety. I figure it's something else entirely :-)


--------------------
/opinion
.sean

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Re: Question for theists [Re: silversoul7]
    #3198367 -

Oh, you're calling the 10 commandments "demands". I see, now.

Yes, God makes demands of us. He demands that we do the right thing. But because we weren't doing the right thing, He put the right thing in writing in the form of the 10 commandments.

You could compare this to the state in which you live making laws. Because people are inclined to kill one another, a state will enact a law that says "it is a crime to kill another human being."

It's like a law or something, when God makes a demand upon us.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Question for theists [Re: silversoul7]
    #3199296 -

"If an omnipotent being created us then they can demand whatever they want"

hum, i was made by an omnipotent being called an embryo?, does that mean they two made it (mum and dad?) could demand whatever they want. from me?


--------------------


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: Question for theists [Re: silversoul7]
    #3199448 -

Or let us assume that was God. Maybe the 10 commandments, in fact every "demand" from God is not a demand, but rather he is telling somebody who they are. I believe in Jesus being a metaphor for the unconditional love and spirituality within us. We deny it, and eventually we come to embrace it, and everything works out. When somebody reads a passage to the Bible referring to Jesus, it always seems to make sense, even though when I first came up with it I was just toying with ideas, and didn't take it seriously.

But what if there is an ideal state of mind, and when in this ideal state of mind, it's not that you abide by these rules, but that you simply accept them as part of who you are. Words fail me to convey this concept. You may make a concious effort to not break these rules, but you do not see it as inconvenient. You find pleasure in living by these words.It's simply a part of who you are. You might come to this spiritual state of mind by abiding by these as rules, although you may see it as inconvenient and problematic sometimes.

I hope I made sense.


--------------------
/opinion
.sean

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Re: Question for theists [Re: Frog]
    #3199546 -

Frog said:
Oh, you're calling the 10 commandments "demands". I see, now.

Yes, God makes demands of us. He demands that we do the right thing. But because we weren't doing the right thing, He put the right thing in writing in the form of the 10 commandments.

You could compare this to the state in which you live making laws. Because people are inclined to kill one another, a state will enact a law that says "it is a crime to kill another human being."

It's like a law or something, when God makes a demand upon us.


It's interesting you make the comparison to a state, because that's kind of the point. The same question applies to the state: By what right does the state make demands of us?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Question for theists [Re: Frog]
    #3203023 -

Yes, God makes demands of us. He demands that we do the right thing.

The right thing? I can see that not killing and not stealing are the right thing and hardly need it in writing, but what's so right about:

1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Question for theists [Re: entiformatie]
    #3203081 -

I think you made complete sense. As I learned from BE HERE NOW long ago [I happen to be wearing a purple BHN shirt to work today - at a Miami middle school BTW] These 'laws' do not 'make one spiritual - these 'laws' describe one's mode of being when one is living in the Spirit. Acting like a boyscout or girlscout does not 'earn' one's way into Heaven - when Heaven is realized within our Center, we then act in a harmoniously ethical and moral Way.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Question for theists [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3203084 -

GOD is One, without parts or divisions. A theological and psychological conundrum has been put upon you! Now what?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Question for theists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3203135 -

"Yes, God makes demands of us. He demands that we do the right thing. But because we weren't doing the right thing, He put the right thing in writing in the form of the 10 commandments.

You could compare this to the state in which you live making laws. Because people are inclined to kill one another, a state will enact a law that says "it is a crime to kill another human being."

you could indeed compare the ten commandments to state laws, because that is exactly what they are. The laws of the tribe of moses, and god is used to ensure obedience


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Question for theists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3203683 -

I am God, worship me, bitch... or I will rain fire down upon you, destroy your crops maim your children, present your women to your enemies to be raped and visit plagues upon you and your kind. Hell, I'll even do that if you believe in and worship me and follow everything that the magical books tell you to do.... oh, and I'm all loving and forgiving too.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Question for theists [Re: silversoul7]
    #3205856 -

silversoul7 said:
Frog said:
Oh, you're calling the 10 commandments "demands". I see, now.

Yes, God makes demands of us. He demands that we do the right thing. But because we weren't doing the right thing, He put the right thing in writing in the form of the 10 commandments.

You could compare this to the state in which you live making laws. Because people are inclined to kill one another, a state will enact a law that says "it is a crime to kill another human being."

It's like a law or something, when God makes a demand upon us.


It's interesting you make the comparison to a state, because that's kind of the point. The same question applies to the state: By what right does the state make demands of us?


It's not that the state has a right to make demands. It's that we have agreed to let the state make demands of us, after we agreed to be part of society. In the same context, God doesn't make demands of us "before" we decide to believe in Him.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Question for theists [Re: Gomp]
    #3205859 -

Gomp said:
"If an omnipotent being created us then they can demand whatever they want"

hum, i was made by an omnipotent being called an embryo?, does that mean they two made it (mum and dad?) could demand whatever they want. from me?


I don't think an embryo (sp?) is an omnipotent being. ???


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Question for theists [Re: Diploid]
    #3205866 -

Diploid said:
Yes, God makes demands of us. He demands that we do the right thing.

The right thing? I can see that not killing and not stealing are the right thing and hardly need it in writing, but what's so right about:

1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

?


Well, I am not God ( :grin: ), so I don't know why He imparted those rules, but I am going to assume for the sake of argument that He knew what He was doing when He made those rules. 

But again, those demands are only made on us "after" we have accepted Jesus as our savior. 

In the meantime, you don't have to do shit.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Question for theists [Re: Evolving]
    #3205870 -

Evolving said:
I am God, worship me, bitch... or I will rain fire down upon you, destroy your crops maim your children, present your women to your enemies to be raped and visit plagues upon you and your kind. Hell, I'll even do that if you believe in and worship me and follow everything that the magical books tell you to do.... oh, and I'm all loving and forgiving too.


Well, see, I don't see God that way. God didn't cause those things to happen. He allowed them to happen, but He allowed them to happen because He is allowing us to make the free choice as to whether to obey Him or not.

IMO, all the things you spoke of were caused by man, not by God.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Question for theists [Re: Frog]
    #3205874 -

Well, I immediately re-thought my post in response to Evolving's post.

The way I see it is that in general, God does not help us, in regard to general evils of living in this world. The world is the world. If there is meant to be a fire or hail or whatever rained down upon us, then it will happen, regardless of God.

But this is where karma comes into play. How do we react when these events occur? This is, I think, what God is waiting to find out.

And this is also part of the test. If we can continue to love God in spite of the evils of the world, how much more blessed are we???

I don't think that God visits evils upon us. I think that this world is a generic world, and that anything that happens, happens because of the natural order of things, or because of man-caused events.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Question for theists [Re: Frog]
    #3205901 -

Quote:
Well, see, I don't see God that way. God didn't cause those things to happen. He allowed them to happen



What about Lot's wife? Did she just die or did God actively execute her when curiosity got the better of her and she looked the wrong way? Can you give me a direct answer to this question and not go off on a tangent?

How about these; did he 'allow' these or actively cause them?

God actively kills:
Jeremiah 13:14 -- And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

God uses his powers to *force* Pharaoh to be stubborn, then God proceeds to kill Pharaoh's firstborn son because Pharaoh was stubborn:
Exodus 4:21-23 -- Then the Lord reminded him [Moses], "When you arrive back in Egypt, go to Pharaoh and perform the miracles I have empowered you to do. But I will make him stubborn so he will not let the people go. Then you will tell him, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son. I commanded you to let him go, so he could worship me. But since you have refused, be warned! I will kill your firstborn son!'"

God issues an order of execution for non-compliance:
Joshua 1:18 -- If anyone rebels against your orders and does not obey every command you give him, he shall be put to death. But be firm and steadfast.

And one of my favorites...

God, in horribly inhumane ways, kills children and others:
Jeremiah 18:21-22 -- So let their children starve! Let the sword pour out their blood! Let their wives become widows without any children! Let their old men die in a plague, and let their young men be killed in battle! Let screaming be heard from their homes as warriors come suddenly upon them. For they have dug a pit for me, and they have hidden traps along my path.

God instructs us not to use the intellect he supposedly gave us for some unknown reason:
Proverbs 3:5 -- Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own intelligence rely not.

I could go on, but I think I've (again) made my point. If there's a Creator, he/she/it/whatever is CERTAINLY NOT the one described in the Bible, IMHO.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (10/02/04 07:58 AM)

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Re: Question for theists [Re: silversoul7]
    #3205909 -

"JAH sitteth in Mt. Zion
And rules all creation...." - Bob Marley

God is Love
God is beyond all comprehension
God IS


--------------------
Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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