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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1530976 - 05/08/03 03:44 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

heh n/p :smile: I think that you and i share the same religious beliefs, actually. that is, religion is stupid :smile:


jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531176 - 05/08/03 04:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You are not dialoguing with me. It would seem that you are in dialogue with your own mental conditioning, not with anything I've said. You're having a monologue. If you wish to have a dialogue with me, re-read MY post, focus on the word "interactive," and stay on task. All you're doing is bringing more half-baked assumptions about fundamentalist Christianity into your response to me, and you're not paying the least bit of attention to the things that I have actually written. Then, you're coming to some childishly emotional conclusions based on stuff that YOU have written. Better yet, read some credible book on theology first (like something by John Shelby Spong), before you go off like this again. Whoever you're responding to, it's not me or anything I've written. Wake up to the fact that you're projecting your own misinformation about Christianity onto me.

You also have a good deal of confusion about the literal and metaphorical reading of Scriptures, the historical and the mythological levels. I don't know your chronological age, but the sadistic game-plan that you describe of Deity is a distorted fundamentalist's story to a young child. It is the 'theology' of one of those Chick Publication booklets you find under your windshield wiper.

Religion is a set of traditions that are intended to 'embody' or 'contain' the Sacred. If you do not know what Sacrality or Holiness consist in, yet you hang out in a spirituality forum, I gotta wonder what's up with you. Do you still practice adolescent rebelliousness in this domain? Is it fun to go on a spirituality forum and make childish statements like 'religion is stupid'? I mean, religion is religion - choose to understand what it means or don't, but do yourself a favor and resist the temptation to make a statement like that, which really IS stupid. Meanwhile, I'll get smarter by not wasting my time responding to people who opinionize based on emotion instead of philosophize.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/08/03 05:11 PM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1531186 - 05/08/03 04:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Markos - for the third time :smile: I'm asking this question in relation to my cousins basic christian beliefs :smile:  Which is fundamentalist christianity! Have you notread that?  I      AM      NOT    DISCUSING    YOUR    FAITH    OR    YOUR    RELIGIOUS  BELIEFS... I am discussing the fundamental christian beliefs.  Was that clear enough :smile:

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532305 - 05/08/03 10:41 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The way your post is written certainly does not exactly inform one that they are supposed to be adopting a retarded fundamentalist view of God before proceeding to argue with you.  Read it from the beginning, maybe you will see hy people keep coming back with alternative arguments.  Your first post does not make the kind of argument you are trying to have clear at all :tongue:


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532338 - 05/08/03 10:57 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Greets,
I have been agnostic (with a more athestical llean) for as long as I can recall. here is one question that I'd like to discuss, see what you all think.

The question is: If God is omnipotent, if he is the "is all and be all", if god has forseen the end of life, then it goes to say that he knows what our next move will be.  God knows exactly what we will do in 5 minutes, and in 5 years.  This puts God in a position much like I would be if I were to see a play that I had read 50 times.  I'd know, for sure, how everything will be done, and how it will end.  Now, gods onmipotence then means that humans don't have free will, because no matter what you say, if god know what our actions are, and he knows FOR SURE what they are, then they are scripted out already.  We might as well sit on the floor in the dark until we die.  Do you think that "God"s omnipotence means that humans don't have free will? If not, how else could it be?  I thank all contributors to this thread :smile:

Jr 




See, no where there does it say anything about your cousin.  To someone with a different kind of view on spirituality, that question is irrelavant almost to the point of being nonsensical.  To someone with a fundamentalist view, those statements alone should be enough to make them seriously wonder, since free will is so readily demonstrable.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1532368 - 05/08/03 11:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I do specifically state 'if' a number of times, therefore setting the conditions on the conversatio. sorry if I didn't explicitly state that the conversation was in relation to my cousin's ideals, but I did make anumber of 'if god..." etc.


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532391 - 05/08/03 11:14 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I am not discussing MY beliefs with you, I'm trying to give you straight-up theology, but to no avail. FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIANITY IS NOT TRUE CHRISTIANITY - IT IS A HERESY - A WRONG VIEW. It is taking midrash (Jewish story-telling that is meant to impart a spiritual truth) with a literal, historical understanding. It is the thinking process of a child, or of a 'adult' who is developmentally stuck in immature Concrete Operational Thinking. It is the simplistic and erroneous confusion of religious myth with historical events. It is the 'magical thinking' of childhood without the possibility of comprehending symbolic or transrational (beyond rational) mentation, because [s]he has not achieved adult rational thought (Formal Operational Thought).

If you want to discuss beliefs, you're going to have to first understand the different degrees of mentality with which to discuss them. If you think that the simpletons of this world have the true grasp of these things, then I, for one, cannot give you the kind of answer that you expect, because I am not a simpleton, and metaphysical questions require very sophisticated answers - not captions to a child's picturebook of Bible Stories. Is THIS clear enough for you?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
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Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1532542 - 05/09/03 12:12 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Since every Christian preaching offical (from priests to southern babtist ministrs) have shared this view, I Dn't know how "unorthodox' it is. still, yu can't refute the 'if's in my initial post.


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532588 - 05/09/03 12:24 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

yu can't refute the 'if's in my initial post.




And you obviously completely lack the ability to start from scratch in an understanding of what God means that would allow you to see that I did "refute" the ifs.


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532600 - 05/09/03 12:27 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Namely you seem to constantly want to transpose human ideals and behavior onto whatever God could possibly be.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 30 days
Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1533882 - 05/09/03 08:30 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

hiya markos...
i just love those chick publications... they have full-sized color comics, as well as those little black& white pamphlet dealies...
as to heretical beliefs... well, heh, it all depends on who is applying the label, hmm? a terrifyingly large number of americans (and no doubt others around the world) who consider themselves christians would agree with the "theology" presented in jack chick's waco TX fundy publishing tracts...
amd as to jr's contention that a catholic priest and a southern baptist minister would be buying into the same interpretation of the way the world wags, well... (not to mention other christian and christian-derived theologies, such as quakers, JWs, swedenborgians, lutherans (of several "flavors"), LDS, methodists, unitarians, UCC, unity, unification ("moonies"), orthodox communions, anglicans, presbyterians, etc. --- there are, what, 10,000 (at least) denominations, synods, sects, splinter groups, cults, whatever-ya-wanna-call-'em, that could be broadly considered to be followers of christ in one way or another... and a god-awful lot of 'em willing to call the others apostates, heretics, strayed from "the way" & going to hell in a bucket, hehheh... & certainly willing to condemn the other monotheistic faiths, and other world religions farther afield, as infidels, heathens, idol-worshippers, pagans, & just plain awful people all a'gonna burn in a lake of fire for eternity...
what a world, what a world...and of course, there are others who call themselves christians who recognize the universal themes embodied in christianity, who acknowedge the legitmacy in other systems of belief, who practice openness & acceptance (while maintaining the centrality of their faith in their lives), who see all humanity as children of a loving god, and recognize that every person has a hole that only god can fill, who judge not (lest they be judged also); and some who even recognize that their story is one myth among many, a way (some contend the best way, perhaps) but not necessarily the only way to approach the central mystery...
what a world...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: gnrm23]
    #1534258 - 05/09/03 12:15 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

My inital post sets up the conditions for the conversation. If the conditions to which I apply to God are real.... that is how hte conversation goes. Most of the people that belive in god don't have degrees in theology. However, every single Christian taht I have spoken to believes you must accept Christ to go to Heaven, and that is the sole way to get into heaven. I'm going with that definition because the majority of hte people that I have discussions with in real life believe in that definition of the God.

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: gnrm23]
    #1535226 - 05/09/03 06:12 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"...what a world, what a world..."
- Margaret Hamilton, 1939, as the Wicked Witch of the West in
The Wizard of Oz

Yes to all, but I need to make a point here, because all too many people, and Shroomerites in particular, have this unfortunate brainwashing with regard to this thing called Christianity, and then 'throw the baby out with the baptismal water.' But thanks for your two cents, they're usually worth a million bucks!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
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Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1535488 - 05/09/03 08:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Every single Christian I have discussed this matter with, including now three priests, a presbyterian minister, a mormon minister, and a babtist preacher (with three Ph D's in god shit) have stated the same basic tenents.

First, if you don't belive in Jesus, you go to hell. Actions don't cut it.

Secondly, God is not an intervening god.  That is why 9/11 happened, that is why underage children are involved in pornography, that is why people are starving.

If you don't agree with these, then you aren't a mainstream christian, from my gatherings.


Jr


:smile:


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1535549 - 05/09/03 08:27 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"God is not an intervening god."

uhh ok then how'd we get here according to these guys? he only "intervened" back before people were asking these kinds of questions?

edit: remove "uhh ok then" from first question - that's mean.. heh sorry


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/10/03 03:25 AM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: A question about God... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1535675 - 05/09/03 09:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"God" intervenes when the "Church" feels like it.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1535767 - 05/09/03 10:35 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

God created the earth and humanity, then he ceased after man's betrayl in the garden of eden. Man was left to ourselves. Except when he interefered in alot of places in the bible :-) The way I usually get the answer that god isn't an intervening god is when I ask "How could god have allowed 9/11 to happen?" or some other tragedy. Well, god gives us free will he does! Doesn't intervene with humans affairs! Well, didn't god intervene with Saul, showing Saul God's true existance? If god can do that for Saul, whjy not for everyone?

:0


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1536643 - 05/10/03 10:27 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You got it professor - I'm NOT a mainstream Christian. Firstly, I'm a Jewish Christian. Secondly, I hold certain Gnostic understandings about GOD and His Christ, thirdly, I believe that there are three distinct 'types' of humans who comprehend these things in very distinctive ways, which accounts for the obvious discrepancies.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
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Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1536798 - 05/10/03 12:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Well, the majority of mainstream christianity, the religion that is the most dominant her ein the good ole US of, DOES believe the tenents that I outlined.  Most of them blindy believe it, but I'eve found a few religious teachers that allow people to dissent with their opinions, and are very cool about it.  From my understanding of Judaism, you don't have to believe in "god" or (obviously) Jesus, you just have to live your life as a good person.  If you do that, and god really does love us and want us to be happy, then you've completed the plan that god had for humans.


Jr :smile:


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1536938 - 05/10/03 02:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

JohnnyRespect: From my understanding of Judaism, you don't have to believe in "god" or (obviously) Jesus, you just have to live your life as a good person. If you do that, and god really does love us and want us to be happy, then you've completed the plan that god had for humans.

If every religious person had this view, I wouldn't have a problem with religion.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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