|
 Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
|
 Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why  [Re: Diploid]
#4543493 - 08/16/05 06:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Will it have the ability to think and create new and dynamic things all on its own? Will the robots be able to create wonderful pieces of art and musical masteripieces? I almost forgot, do you not believe in Robot Jesus too?
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
 Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Zero7a1]
#4543635 - 08/16/05 07:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Will it have the ability to think and create new and dynamic things all on its own? Will the robots be able to create wonderful pieces of art and musical masteripieces?
I have news for you. We already have machines that can do these things. I've created several.
This is one of the points I post about all the time. You see machines as somehow different than humans because we understand the machine 100%; we have program printouts, blueprints, schematics, and all that for the machine, but not for the human.
However, every year, neurological science gives us more and more information; eventually we will understand 100% of the brain and will be able to construct a machine that behaves just like a brain does.
What then?
This theme repeats over and over:
It was once "not possible" to make a machine that could beat the best human chess players. It was said human intuition would always win out. A few years ago, a machine played the best humans on earth in a tournament, and won.
It was once "not possible" for a machine to learn and adapt, today the XBox game console does just that.
It was once "not possible" for a machine to write music as good and indistinguishable from that of the most accomplished human. Today those machines exist.
Now, it's "not possible" to construct a conscious machine...
When it finally is constructed, mystics will move the goal post and ask "yeah, but can it cook?"
I almost forgot, do you not believe in Robot Jesus too?
Say wha? 
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
 Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Diploid]
#4543692 - 08/16/05 07:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
how do we test for conciousness in a machine though? and if machines can do all that without conciousness what is the need for it?
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
 Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Deviate]
#4543922 - 08/16/05 08:42 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
how do we test for conciousness in a machine though?
The same way we do with humans.
In other words, there is no test for it. How do you know that I'm a human and not an automated computer replying to you? That's the essence of the Turing Test. If you cannot tell if you're chatting with a machine or a human right now, then there is no difference.
Asking if the machine is conscious is as meaningless as asking if I am; you can't know the answer to either question.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
 
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Diploid]
#4543969 - 08/16/05 08:51 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I thought the Turing test was considered the standard for human like AI.
--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
 Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4544009 - 08/16/05 09:04 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
It is, but more than just a test, it brings up deep philosophical implications.
If a machine and a human are chatting with you online and you can't, even after getting to 'know' them during months of discussion, figure out which one is the human and which is the machine, then is there a difference?
Is it meaningful to even ask if the human has a soul or some other metaphysical quality that distinguishes human from the machine? Does the machine have feelings? It tells you it does, just like the human tells you.
Who is to judge?
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Diploid]
#4544019 - 08/16/05 09:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Many humans who tell you they have feelings don't.
--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Diploid]
#4544049 - 08/16/05 09:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I have to laugh over an irony. I don't know if you guys saying computers are or can be just like humans in consciousness are making a strong case for God or ET intelligence.
No matter what a computer can do or will be able to do it is because humans programmed it to be able to do that, even to self evolve. It absolutely requires something more intelligent then it to create it and program it.
If you all keep saying humans and computers are exactly alike, then you are also saying that something created and programmed us.
Maybe you guys might want to consider changing your tune on the "there is no difference" stance.
It's creepy to here you all say something created and programmed us, which is what you are saying when you say we are no different then AI.
--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#4544076 - 08/16/05 09:20 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
"It absolutely requires something more intelligent then it to create it and program it."
Not really. If computers are made to evolve as you said, then it would quickly be out of human hands. The march of technology would move fast enough to provide a fairly rapid development cycle. In a few decades you could have machine of superior processing ability to humans. It is not far fetched at all. Building this evolving machine is still 50 to 75 years out, though.
"It's creepy to here you all say something created and programmed us,"
Do you believe in God? Personally I think Microsoft was behind it as we are full of security vulnerabilities and crash bugs.
--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4544094 - 08/16/05 09:26 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Hue, that has to be applied and I knew that responce was coming next.
if computers were made to evolve on their own, then it would be out of human hands.
If humans were made to evolve on their own, then it would be out of God Et's hands.
We still programmed the computer to evolve on its own. If we are the same, that would apply to us.
Maybe if thats what happened, it would explain why people feel abandoned by their God or why ET hasn't come to fix their problems and take them home.
Oh this is all fucked up funny to me.
--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
 Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#4544116 - 08/16/05 09:30 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
We still programmed the computer to evolve on its own. If we are the same, that would apply to us.
You're drawing an invalid inference.
If a machines that can pass the Turing Test is constructed, humans and the machine would be functionally the same thing. That does not require that we have the same origins, only that we behave the same way.
There are usually many paths to one destination. It may be that we were designed, just like the machine, but it is just as likely that we were not, even if the machine was.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Diploid]
#4544163 - 08/16/05 09:41 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said:
We still programmed the computer to evolve on its own. If we are the same, that would apply to us.
You're drawing an invalid inference.
If a machines that can pass the Turing Test is constructed, humans and the machine would be functionally the same thing. That does not require that we have the same origins, only that we behave the same way.
There are usually many paths to one destination. It may be that we were designed, just like the machine, but it is just as likely that we were not, even if the machine was.
I don't think it's invalid, if you say we are the same as computers.
It would be invalid if you said that human consciousness is not the same as a computer.
It's because of the guys saying its the same thing that makes it a valid reference.
That's why I suggested that you guys may want to watch your wording and cut out the words "same difference".
If we came about differently then, we have an unlike sameness that makes us different in origin.
a problem still remains here because we know the origin of the computer. Science hasn't yet made a DNA link between us and Homo Erectus. We still don't know the origin of homo sapien for sure.
Even if someday science connects us with DNA to all the way back to Lucy, we still don't know where matter, conscious matter to boot came from in this Universe.
I would just quit calling us exactly the same as computers or even human being computers because it will only support ID or Creationism theories. I know you guys don't want to be doing that.
--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#4544204 - 08/16/05 09:51 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
"If humans were made to evolve on their own"
We were made this way. That is what technology is...evolution.
--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
 Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#4544219 - 08/16/05 09:54 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
It's because of the guys saying its the same thing that makes it a valid reference.
But you're missing the understood qualification that we would be *functionally the same* thing as the machine, not *the same*.
A gas stove and an electric stove are functionally the same thing, but they are not the same. When I talk about stoves, I don't distinguish if it's gas or electric unless we're discussing specifically their source of energy. I just assume that everyone knows they do the same thing; they are functionally the same thing.
Plug in the word 'functionally', which I assumed was understood to be there, before "the same" in everything I said above.
Science hasn't yet made a DNA link
This is exactly what I was referring to above. Science at one time couldn't do seemingly magical activity X, then it did. The mystics promptly moved the demarcation and asked, "yeah, but can it cook"?
This happened with chess, with music, with speech, with voice recognition... every time a machine does something previously attributed to the magical human essence, the line is moved farther back rather than grant that it looks like all those things mystics claim make us supernatural are actually ordinary.
The belief that humans occupy a special place in the universe will eventually go the way of the belief that the Earth held a special place in the center of the universe. Hopefully, no one will have to be inquisitioned first.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#4544251 - 08/16/05 10:02 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
"If humans were made to evolve on their own"
We were made this way. That is what technology is...evolution.
And look how technology evolved......with an intelligent designer.
Well, dip, you started using at least the word "functionally" before same. A handful in S&P make no distingishable difference noted what so ever. Even if they have one in their head and don't post it, it could be used to suppor ID and creationism.
All I was suggesting is that you guys maintain some sort of difference if you don't want it used to support ID and creationism theories. 
I'm not using it for that. Someone may up the road.
Whatever..... cary on. It's no skin off my back. Just wanted to mention it for your consideration because, I'm feeling considerate and all right now.
--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#4544277 - 08/16/05 10:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:
And look how technology evolved......with an intelligent designer.
More like competing intelligent designers, of whom the best succeeded while those less fit went out of business.
capitalism = natural selection
--------------------
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Silversoul]
#4544298 - 08/16/05 10:11 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Hmmmmmmm now you are supporting warring gods or ET theories.
This is getting very creepy......... 
--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
|
 Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Diploid]
#4544940 - 08/17/05 12:27 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Let me put it this way, Robots are programmed by us, their ability to make concious recognitions of their actions only gives rise to the scenario that we have created an external projection of our own behaviors. Robots will be like the ultimate creative design, extensions of US, not wholly unique, but tied to us as our atoms are tied to this universe.
What our question is, is ultimately, what it has always been, where did we come from, what are we... Life itself is about experiencing this, because we cant answer this, this is the definition of our ignorance, and knowing that is what makes us human, and what we create from there, has only as you said, the extensions of our own minds.
Building mimicing structures doesnt answers those fundamental questions! Which is ultimately why i dont understand how you can use this as justifaction against religion.
It was such a halarious episode of Futurama. "Do you not believe in robot jesus too?" 
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Zero7a1]
#4547231 - 08/17/05 03:27 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Building mimicing structures doesnt answers those fundamental questions! Which is ultimately why i dont understand how you can use this as justifaction against religion.
Just because we don't know where the universe came from or how it got started does not mean it was a result of magic. All it means is that we don't know.
Religion refuses to say "I Don't Know". Instead, religion says "I Don't Know, So It Must Be Magic (God)".
Inventing an explanation rather than admitting you don't know is stagnation; it's what kept mankind living in huts and dying of diseases for millennia before the rise of science.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (08/17/05 03:57 PM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Theists Outnumber Atheists - Lemme Tell You Why [Re: Diploid]
#4547853 - 08/17/05 05:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, It's better to just say I don't know. That's why I like Taoism and Castanada. 
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order 
Red Vein Kratom 
Bridgetown Botanicals
Edit 
Reply 
Freedom
Jaimie
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
OutThisLife
Silversoul
OrgoneConclusion
Cracka_X