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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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A question about God...
    #1525408 - 05/06/03 08:29 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Greets,
I have been agnostic (with a more athestical llean) for as long as I can recall. here is one question that I'd like to discuss, see what you all think.

The question is: If God is omnipotent, if he is the "is all and be all", if god has forseen the end of life, then it goes to say that he knows what our next move will be.  God knows exactly what we will do in 5 minutes, and in 5 years.  This puts God in a position much like I would be if I were to see a play that I had read 50 times.  I'd know, for sure, how everything will be done, and how it will end.  Now, gods onmipotence then means that humans don't have free will, because no matter what you say, if god know what our actions are, and he knows FOR SURE what they are, then they are scripted out already.  We might as well sit on the floor in the dark until we die.  Do you think that "God"s omnipotence means that humans don't have free will? If not, how else could it be?  I thank all contributors to this thread :smile:

Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1525434 - 05/06/03 08:38 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

God does not 'know all' except for all of it's creation. The future is uncertain, even for the creator.

When you paint a picture, you don't know exactly how you are going to paint it before you do it, you get a general idea, then go with it, making new decisions as you go, and changing whatever along the way to improve it.

Creation is under evolution. "God" is constantly learning, evolving. Adapting to it's environment. As humans we experience life, each human and each experience gives "God" new input into our subjective reality, it learns from this culminated wisdom, to constantly learn and evolve. Creation is constantly evolving and improving, for if it didn't, life would stagnate and cease to be.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1525510 - 05/06/03 09:09 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Deleted by admin


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1525579 - 05/06/03 09:38 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

THe question of free will is an interesting one. If you mean free will in terms of the thoughts that you have in your head, then I'd say you have free will.

In terms of, the things you do... [ there is, I'll suggest again, fine print in this deal... but...]

What about this..... for example:

Addiction. Many people who are addicted... to say.... cigarettes, after some years, realize how awful their lungs feel + shortness of breath + .... whatever else. They know it sucks! They hate doing it! They freely, in their mind, say that they will quit ! BUT THEY DON'T !!!

Their will is NOT FREE. It is bound to condition. However, if the conditions are met, then the will becomes free of slavery again.

This is a direct result of self control.



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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineZahid
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1525642 - 05/06/03 10:08 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

...and he knows FOR SURE what they are, then they are scripted out already

Can elaborate what you mean by "scripted out already"? You should not confuse the omniscience of God with fatalism.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: Zahid]
    #1526915 - 05/07/03 09:19 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

If God is omnipotent, and he knows how everything will occur, then him observing this tiny speck of dust in the universe would be like me watching a production of Romeo and Juliet. I'm not personally telling the characters how to behave, but I know what they'll do, what they'll say, and how they meet their demise, therefore, they aren't acting on free will, because I know already how they will act. If god is the same way with watching earth, that is, if his omniscience allows him to know the future, then he KNOWS how we will act. This means that if I decide to sit in my room and just starve to death, thats what god knew all along, and it was his "plan" for me. If I felt like walking outsite with an ak-47 and shooting people, well, god knew of it and didn't intervene, more specifically, god wrote the script that had me doing that, so none of our actions are our own.

jR


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1527754 - 05/07/03 03:45 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I met god yesterday...



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: A question about God... [Re: adrug]
    #1527782 - 05/07/03 03:51 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

You're real good at capturing the moment!

Excellent pic !!!!



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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: adrug]
    #1527783 - 05/07/03 03:51 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

beautiful!!


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OfflineZahid
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1528525 - 05/07/03 08:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Just because God knows how you will use your free will does not mean you no longer have it. While God knows how you will live out your life, I'm not sure how it means you have no free will. Everyone has free will - they could use it to become upright, meaningful people or they can abuse it to the point of self destruction. Free will: I have it, you have it, God knows it - I know who I am, my question to you, do you know who you are?

Again, just because God knew you were going to kill a bunch of people with an "AK 47" does not exempt you from being responsible for your actions. For the people you killed, God knew how they would die: An evil person would someday shoot them. You made the choice, buddy. You now have to deal with other free-will-bearing humans who want to punish you now.

The way you seem to see it, God has to be a baby sitter for humans for Him to exist. People are not stupid. When People are bad, they are making a concious descision to do that. Frankly, people should know better.


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Edited by Zahid (05/07/03 08:50 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1528769 - 05/07/03 10:00 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

God is continually in the act of defining itself through everything in our universe (us, aliens, animals, plants, and everything else possible). The future and the past both already exist (there are no future or past, it is all one eternal moment), yet the question is which future is going to be experienced in the now. All possibilities already exist. Consciousness can move into any of these possibilities and make them realized in any moment.

Ever heard of the parallel universe theory derived from subatomic physics? There are trillions of trillions of them. Reality is made manifest first with a thought.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1528962 - 05/07/03 11:10 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The Free Will-Determinism dichotomy has more to do with one's participation IN GOD, then one's artificial 'objectivity,' in which GOD is 'observing' from some singular, space-time moment outside of the drama of existence. The IS no such fiction as 'objectivity' either in physics or in metaphysics.

If anything, GOD participates, which is to say, creates, observes, acts, from within every 'point' in the space-time continuum, not from some Archimedian or Olympian vantage point 'outside' of the creation. In Him/Herself, GOD is utterly Transcendent, but [S]He is Immanent IN creation. Not a mere witness, or an absentee 'clockmaker,' but active Will.

The measure of human free will, or freedom, is determined (note the paradoxical language), by the degree to which we Love 'other' beings, and the degree to which we freely Love, is determined by our free choice to participate in the Being of GOD. The WAY in which one participates in the Being of GOD is also a free choice, but the method to which I subscribe used to be called The WAY long before others called it being Christian.

Christ is the unique paradigm of Divinity-in-Humanity. The human ego however, will never become the possessor of those attributes of the Transcendent Godhead, such as omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence. Only Christ-in-me possesses this nature, but the occasional 'drop' of His Life into mine provides more Awareness than I can possibly comprehend in my human beinghood, and the awe more than sustains my faith in what is possible.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/07/03 11:13 PM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1529011 - 05/07/03 11:33 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

If God knows what I am doing next, and he knows for sure, then it is written in stone. therefore, you could claim, possibly, that god might not have been that one that set in stone what I am going to do, but if God honestly does know my next action, then it is predetermined, and I"m just following a script. I know how Romeo and Juliet will end, tho I never wrote the play or directed it. This is predetermination because I know exactly what will happen, and exactly how it will occur. Nothing the actors can do (while still following the script that God would be 100% sure of) would ever change the ending. Maybe I shouuld just go sit in my room until I die, because if I do that, it will mean it was destined for me to do.

Also, do you believe that God is an intervening god? That is, would he intervene with humanity for any reason? I'dlike to hear your thoughts on this. thanks.


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1529015 - 05/07/03 11:35 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

For the purpose of argument, by stating that God knows what will occur, I mean he knows for sure.  It's the literal 100% totally correct and perfect Mind of God that knows it.  Please don't say "god could be wrong", because a perfect god can't be wrong (and we'll all recalle Jesus, one of the members of the holy trinity was without sin).  For this argument at least, god is 100% sure and 100% knowign what iwll happen next.. Thanks :smile:


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1529060 - 05/07/03 11:56 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

So in other words you're refusing to contemplate what MarktheGnostic just said?

You refuse to entertain any concept of what God might mean other than your own, therefore anyone's concept of it doesn't exist?


Edited by Anonymous (05/08/03 12:02 AM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529089 - 05/08/03 12:06 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

No, I was limiting what I was meaning by the question.  He made an excellent point. I don't belive in god at all, my cousin and I are having this debate, and the god and the hypothetical situation I described is the one that he believes in, so I'm asking for questions relating to that.  I can no more change his idea of what god is than he can make me belive in god :smile:

His post was par excellence tho, and I respect his points.  Although I don't think god is real :smile:


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1529103 - 05/08/03 12:12 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, alright, I see where you're coming from with the question then.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529116 - 05/08/03 12:15 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Yea, I definatly think his post was excellent, I even shroomed him for it;


But I do have some questions - Mark, from your post, I see you think that god is an intervening god? Am I correct, or did I misinterpret? By "intervening god", I mean a god that would ever interfere in any way or any degree of magnitute, with human affairs. Do you belive that heis?

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1529128 - 05/08/03 12:18 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not trying to speak for him.

My understanding is that human affairs are God affairs.


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529193 - 05/08/03 12:41 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

does god get involved in animal affairs?


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