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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: whiterasta]
    #976751 - 10/20/02 12:23 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

weak...


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Offlinemirrorsaww
newbie
Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 43
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Sclorch]
    #976820 - 10/20/02 01:03 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You lost me


nihilism... anti-nihilism

A devil... an angel.

Zen...

No Zen.

Are you getting what I'm saying??

Anyway... I take exception to the comment about theists :smile: You "Zenists" are full of yourself  :grin: 


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Offlinemirrorsaww
newbie
Registered: 08/31/02
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Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #976834 - 10/20/02 01:15 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

the people you consider angels are really devils

or rather... perhaps the people that some consider devils are really angels.

Maybe there is no difference...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: mirrorsaww]
    #977497 - 10/20/02 06:51 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Sir... I don't see where nihilism fits in (Nietzsche was CLEARLY not a nihilist).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Sclorch]
    #978219 - 10/20/02 11:31 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

That's news to me.  You're saying Nietzsche received Zen training?  What the is the big deal with your beloved zen master and existentialism?  You make him sound like he's the "King of the Hill" and your his Royal jack-ass Knight.

:laugh: :laugh:





 


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Calen]
    #978231 - 10/20/02 11:37 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

That's news to me.

Lemme guess.... you've read only excerpts?

You're saying Nietzsche received Zen training?

I said nothing of the sorts. He probably didn't even know about Zen.
I just said that he WAS a zen master.

What the is the big deal with your beloved zen master and existentialism?

Big deal? Well, I guess Ralph Waldo Emerson said it best with
"To be great, is to be misunderstood."

You make him sound like he's the "King of the Hill" and your his Royal jack-ass Knight.

What... did you just pick that up from the playground at recess?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Sclorch]
    #979282 - 10/21/02 09:28 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I think folks understand you though Sclorch :grin:!And I hate to put this to you but Nietchze WAS NOT A ZEN ANYTHING he was a self tortured brilliant man but to ascribe cultural values to which he did not belong is really quite arrogant of you.He may have stumbled upon some zen principles and possibly understood some of the basics of zen thought but he was probably not even aware of zen philosophy.Nietchze was a man who's mental state was essentially dark and this colors his work and therefore creates a partial work at best and a stark ego driven humanity at worst :frown:WR 


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To old for this place


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: whiterasta]
    #979438 - 10/21/02 11:19 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

And I hate to put this to you but Nietchze WAS NOT A ZEN ANYTHING he was a self tortured brilliant man but to ascribe cultural values to which he did not belong is really quite arrogant of you.

Ohhhh.... he is SOOOOO zen. (BTW, it's Nietzsche--->just look up next time)
Self-tortured? Who isn't (think Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground)?
Brilliant? An understatement. If read correctly, he killed everyone before him going back to and including Plato. It wasn't just dissent. He wasn't a nihilist. He wasn't a pessimist. He was zen... you just don't get it... that's okay, for now.
Don't mistake confidence for arrogance.

but he was probably not even aware of zen philosophy.

I agree... he wasn't. This makes him all that more impressive... it shows how zen can be universal (Oh shit! Where's he going with this?).

Nietchze was a man who's mental state was essentially dark and this colors his work

You've only read excerpts, too, eh?

and therefore creates a partial work at best and a stark ego driven humanity at worst
Actually, there is much compassion in his work. However, I know so well how a superficial reading of Nietzsche can leave a sour taste in your mouth. Read it again. This time... think sarcasm.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinemirrorsaww
newbie
Registered: 08/31/02
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Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Sclorch]
    #979774 - 10/21/02 02:16 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

My understanding of what you have been writing is that you are saying that Nietzsche used Zen techniques in his writings ... If this is what you are saying then I would agree with you.

You do seem to be a little slow...:grin:

Sir... I don't see where nihilism fits in (Nietzsche was CLEARLY not a nihilist).

That was what I was saying! to some he is a nihilist (a devil)

To others he is the very opposite of this (an angel - in that he liberates you...)

Perhaps your misunderstanding me is my fault... I never could grasp Zen concepts :grin:

And Nietzsche himself? a genius yes... but I think he went past the line...

Buddhism is the only religion that I remember him having any kind words for (see T.A.C.) ... did he know about Zen? who knows?




 


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: mirrorsaww]
    #979849 - 10/21/02 02:52 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Buddhism is the only religion that I remember him having any kind words for (see T.A.C.) ... did he know about Zen? who knows?

Haven't read that yet... dammit.
You say he mentioned Buddhism?
Was his description/perception of Buddhism accurate (IYO)?

If he DID know about zen... I would be fucking thrilled.
As soon as I get done with a little Heidegger, I'll grab The Anti-Christ.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinemirrorsaww
newbie
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Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Sclorch]
    #983329 - 10/22/02 04:36 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Was his description/perception of Buddhism accurate (IYO)?

Yes.

The book gives a very interesting perspective on Judaism and Christianity... (he rips them apart like no one else could) His praise for Buddhism is in how rational it is... he said that the west was not nearly ready for it yet... He linked Christ with Buddhism, but said that the only Christian died on the cross. So what you have is the Anti-Christ vs. Christ... the will to power vs...

If he DID know about zen... I would be fucking thrilled.

remember that if he understood Buddhism then he would have understood the Zen technique whether or not he had any exposure to that school of it. Zen is of course merely the refinement of what Buddhism already was.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: mirrorsaww]
    #983377 - 10/22/02 04:47 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I have to read that book and soon.
I gleaned the "zen master" thing off of his other books (which DO NOT mention Buddhism).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinemirrorsaww
newbie
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Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Sclorch]
    #987106 - 10/23/02 05:53 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I seem to remember that he claimed that the world wasn't ready for him yet... as he also said that the west wasn't ready for Buddhism...

is that a hint??? :grin: 


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OfflineEarth Shaman
Earth Lover

Registered: 10/22/02
Posts: 49
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Sclorch]
    #987190 - 10/23/02 06:22 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I'm with you on that one, Sclorch.
One of the most wonderful collections of philosophy I ever read was a compilation of the works of Nietzsche, including the "Geneology of Morals" and "Ecce Homo".  His takes on the TRUE nature of man's mind is awe-inspiring. 
I may have only joined this forum about a week ago, but I've loved philosophy my whole life.
Safe journeys, man.

-The Green Earth Shaman
:cool:   


--------------------
Walk in Beauty,
The Green Earth Shaman

"Whatever you take from Mother Earth, replace it, because nothing is for nothing."
-Native American Proverb


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Earth Shaman]
    #988466 - 10/24/02 02:52 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You are that much more worthy of the title 'shaman,' then...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Sclorch]
    #989989 - 10/24/02 05:01 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Lemme guess.... you've read only excerpts?

A long time ago in school.  The curriculum never went that in-depth.

I said nothing of the sorts. He probably didn't even know about Zen.
I just said that he WAS a zen master.


Even if he never received training during his life, he had to received the insights somewhere. 



Big deal? Well, I guess Ralph Waldo Emerson said it best with
"To be great, is to be misunderstood."


Being great is not a prize to be recognized or to be misunderstood.  What is your real motive in this thread?  First, you rant no one knows enough *real* existentialism. Now, you're praising Mr. N's brilliance.  Did he intend to convey his insights that way - to be misunderstood as you say?

What... did you just pick that up from the playground at recess?

ahaha..  fits the observation of your tone.  :smile: You want to raise the *awareness* of Mr. N to the audience, then do so.  All I see here is a soapbox.  I haven't seen any ah your discourses on Mr. N's zen?

Frankly, Mr. N's zen is high-end mind*beep*ing.  The mind is just a vessel - not a place to live in.  Maybe his works was misunderstood because there is no middle ground to connect to real-time? To real people..

Here's what I mean by the middle.  Masters who teach other aspirants without words.  Who taught themselves without books, manuals, or guides.  Who battles each other in silence.  In purest sense, philosophy in *motion*:


Bionicman, Bruce Lee *mastaaa*, gives the open palm to his opponent at the end. :laugh:
http://members.shaw.ca/namer12/bionic-final.avi

Eric, the mastaaa of liquid, gives new meaning to the "mesmer" effect.
http://members.shaw.ca/namer12/ericliquid.WMV
http://members.shaw.ca/boogaloobork/dance-001.avi

These vids will play on Windows (crap) Media player + with necessary installed codecs.  Blow the screen to fullsize and enjoy, or else you can't tell what they're doing.

Now, if *you* and Mr. N can do this, I'll bow to greatness. :P

edit: oops, forgot one more


Edited by Calen (10/24/02 05:12 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Calen]
    #990031 - 10/24/02 05:11 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I tell you what... if a few people in this forum could all get a copy of Nietzsche, we could all read along. And I'll point out the zen as we go. I'm not going to write a dissertation to convince anybody who hasn't read but excerpts. Sorry.

Nietzsche wrote for himself and other _________. He wasn't writing for the layman. That is why is so misunderstood. whatever...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Sclorch]
    #990036 - 10/24/02 05:13 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Then your rant was pointless.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Calen]
    #990063 - 10/24/02 05:23 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I'm just scattering seeds...

Some will land in the road, some will be eaten by birds, and some will land in the soil. I wish they all landed in the soil... but that is the nature of random scattering (unless you're a determinist).


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Theists and their understanding of Existentialism [Re: Sclorch]
    #990082 - 10/24/02 05:28 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Alright.  Just don't catapult the seeds at potential listeners if you know what I mean. :wink: You'll send the kids running for cover from the teacher.



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