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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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A question about God...
    #1525408 - 05/06/03 08:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Greets,
I have been agnostic (with a more athestical llean) for as long as I can recall. here is one question that I'd like to discuss, see what you all think.

The question is: If God is omnipotent, if he is the "is all and be all", if god has forseen the end of life, then it goes to say that he knows what our next move will be.  God knows exactly what we will do in 5 minutes, and in 5 years.  This puts God in a position much like I would be if I were to see a play that I had read 50 times.  I'd know, for sure, how everything will be done, and how it will end.  Now, gods onmipotence then means that humans don't have free will, because no matter what you say, if god know what our actions are, and he knows FOR SURE what they are, then they are scripted out already.  We might as well sit on the floor in the dark until we die.  Do you think that "God"s omnipotence means that humans don't have free will? If not, how else could it be?  I thank all contributors to this thread :smile:

Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1525434 - 05/06/03 08:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

God does not 'know all' except for all of it's creation. The future is uncertain, even for the creator.

When you paint a picture, you don't know exactly how you are going to paint it before you do it, you get a general idea, then go with it, making new decisions as you go, and changing whatever along the way to improve it.

Creation is under evolution. "God" is constantly learning, evolving. Adapting to it's environment. As humans we experience life, each human and each experience gives "God" new input into our subjective reality, it learns from this culminated wisdom, to constantly learn and evolve. Creation is constantly evolving and improving, for if it didn't, life would stagnate and cease to be.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1525510 - 05/06/03 09:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Deleted by admin


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1525579 - 05/06/03 09:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

THe question of free will is an interesting one. If you mean free will in terms of the thoughts that you have in your head, then I'd say you have free will.

In terms of, the things you do... [ there is, I'll suggest again, fine print in this deal... but...]

What about this..... for example:

Addiction. Many people who are addicted... to say.... cigarettes, after some years, realize how awful their lungs feel + shortness of breath + .... whatever else. They know it sucks! They hate doing it! They freely, in their mind, say that they will quit ! BUT THEY DON'T !!!

Their will is NOT FREE. It is bound to condition. However, if the conditions are met, then the will becomes free of slavery again.

This is a direct result of self control.



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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineZahid
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1525642 - 05/06/03 10:08 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

...and he knows FOR SURE what they are, then they are scripted out already

Can elaborate what you mean by "scripted out already"? You should not confuse the omniscience of God with fatalism.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: Zahid]
    #1526915 - 05/07/03 09:19 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If God is omnipotent, and he knows how everything will occur, then him observing this tiny speck of dust in the universe would be like me watching a production of Romeo and Juliet. I'm not personally telling the characters how to behave, but I know what they'll do, what they'll say, and how they meet their demise, therefore, they aren't acting on free will, because I know already how they will act. If god is the same way with watching earth, that is, if his omniscience allows him to know the future, then he KNOWS how we will act. This means that if I decide to sit in my room and just starve to death, thats what god knew all along, and it was his "plan" for me. If I felt like walking outsite with an ak-47 and shooting people, well, god knew of it and didn't intervene, more specifically, god wrote the script that had me doing that, so none of our actions are our own.

jR


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1527754 - 05/07/03 03:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I met god yesterday...



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: A question about God... [Re: adrug]
    #1527782 - 05/07/03 03:51 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You're real good at capturing the moment!

Excellent pic !!!!



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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: adrug]
    #1527783 - 05/07/03 03:51 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

beautiful!!


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OfflineZahid
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1528525 - 05/07/03 08:34 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Just because God knows how you will use your free will does not mean you no longer have it. While God knows how you will live out your life, I'm not sure how it means you have no free will. Everyone has free will - they could use it to become upright, meaningful people or they can abuse it to the point of self destruction. Free will: I have it, you have it, God knows it - I know who I am, my question to you, do you know who you are?

Again, just because God knew you were going to kill a bunch of people with an "AK 47" does not exempt you from being responsible for your actions. For the people you killed, God knew how they would die: An evil person would someday shoot them. You made the choice, buddy. You now have to deal with other free-will-bearing humans who want to punish you now.

The way you seem to see it, God has to be a baby sitter for humans for Him to exist. People are not stupid. When People are bad, they are making a concious descision to do that. Frankly, people should know better.


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Edited by Zahid (05/07/03 08:50 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1528769 - 05/07/03 10:00 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

God is continually in the act of defining itself through everything in our universe (us, aliens, animals, plants, and everything else possible). The future and the past both already exist (there are no future or past, it is all one eternal moment), yet the question is which future is going to be experienced in the now. All possibilities already exist. Consciousness can move into any of these possibilities and make them realized in any moment.

Ever heard of the parallel universe theory derived from subatomic physics? There are trillions of trillions of them. Reality is made manifest first with a thought.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1528962 - 05/07/03 11:10 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The Free Will-Determinism dichotomy has more to do with one's participation IN GOD, then one's artificial 'objectivity,' in which GOD is 'observing' from some singular, space-time moment outside of the drama of existence. The IS no such fiction as 'objectivity' either in physics or in metaphysics.

If anything, GOD participates, which is to say, creates, observes, acts, from within every 'point' in the space-time continuum, not from some Archimedian or Olympian vantage point 'outside' of the creation. In Him/Herself, GOD is utterly Transcendent, but [S]He is Immanent IN creation. Not a mere witness, or an absentee 'clockmaker,' but active Will.

The measure of human free will, or freedom, is determined (note the paradoxical language), by the degree to which we Love 'other' beings, and the degree to which we freely Love, is determined by our free choice to participate in the Being of GOD. The WAY in which one participates in the Being of GOD is also a free choice, but the method to which I subscribe used to be called The WAY long before others called it being Christian.

Christ is the unique paradigm of Divinity-in-Humanity. The human ego however, will never become the possessor of those attributes of the Transcendent Godhead, such as omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence. Only Christ-in-me possesses this nature, but the occasional 'drop' of His Life into mine provides more Awareness than I can possibly comprehend in my human beinghood, and the awe more than sustains my faith in what is possible.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/07/03 11:13 PM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1529011 - 05/07/03 11:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If God knows what I am doing next, and he knows for sure, then it is written in stone. therefore, you could claim, possibly, that god might not have been that one that set in stone what I am going to do, but if God honestly does know my next action, then it is predetermined, and I"m just following a script. I know how Romeo and Juliet will end, tho I never wrote the play or directed it. This is predetermination because I know exactly what will happen, and exactly how it will occur. Nothing the actors can do (while still following the script that God would be 100% sure of) would ever change the ending. Maybe I shouuld just go sit in my room until I die, because if I do that, it will mean it was destined for me to do.

Also, do you believe that God is an intervening god? That is, would he intervene with humanity for any reason? I'dlike to hear your thoughts on this. thanks.


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1529015 - 05/07/03 11:35 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

For the purpose of argument, by stating that God knows what will occur, I mean he knows for sure.  It's the literal 100% totally correct and perfect Mind of God that knows it.  Please don't say "god could be wrong", because a perfect god can't be wrong (and we'll all recalle Jesus, one of the members of the holy trinity was without sin).  For this argument at least, god is 100% sure and 100% knowign what iwll happen next.. Thanks :smile:


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1529060 - 05/07/03 11:56 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

So in other words you're refusing to contemplate what MarktheGnostic just said?

You refuse to entertain any concept of what God might mean other than your own, therefore anyone's concept of it doesn't exist?


Edited by Fiend (05/08/03 12:02 AM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529089 - 05/08/03 12:06 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

No, I was limiting what I was meaning by the question.  He made an excellent point. I don't belive in god at all, my cousin and I are having this debate, and the god and the hypothetical situation I described is the one that he believes in, so I'm asking for questions relating to that.  I can no more change his idea of what god is than he can make me belive in god :smile:

His post was par excellence tho, and I respect his points.  Although I don't think god is real :smile:


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1529103 - 05/08/03 12:12 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, alright, I see where you're coming from with the question then.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529116 - 05/08/03 12:15 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Yea, I definatly think his post was excellent, I even shroomed him for it;


But I do have some questions - Mark, from your post, I see you think that god is an intervening god? Am I correct, or did I misinterpret? By "intervening god", I mean a god that would ever interfere in any way or any degree of magnitute, with human affairs. Do you belive that heis?

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1529128 - 05/08/03 12:18 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not trying to speak for him.

My understanding is that human affairs are God affairs.


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529193 - 05/08/03 12:41 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

does god get involved in animal affairs?


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529272 - 05/08/03 12:59 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Animal affairs are God affairs too :wink:


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529342 - 05/08/03 01:18 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

so does god sanction the killing of baby bears by the males (so the father bear can mate with the female again)?


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529363 - 05/08/03 01:21 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

that's what bears do, so it's an aspect of God


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OfflineMurex
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Re: A question about God... [Re: Shroomism]
    #1529381 - 05/08/03 01:24 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)


Great analogy Shroomism, I don't think could say it any better.

God doesn't really know the future because I don't. I just have a sketch of what it would be like then from where things are now. What would be the point if 'God' know everything and the everything that will happen? That's like cheating at solatire....err something like that.

:tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529385 - 05/08/03 01:25 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

so, humans killing eachother in the street for money is an aspect of god and ok?


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529430 - 05/08/03 01:39 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

it's not a question of 'ok' or 'not ok', it is simply a matter of a low level of evolution. and yes, it too is an aspect of god. 'ok' and 'not ok' are human ideas reflecting our dualistic current level of consciousness.


Edited by Fiend (05/08/03 01:41 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529497 - 05/08/03 01:59 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

alright, i won't use those words, but, does god view the killing of animals by animals in the same way as he views humans killing humans. establishing the fact that killing is on both of our evolutionary paths.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529512 - 05/08/03 02:07 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Killing happens. Nothing is the way anyone wants things to be. If it were perfect, it would be an illision to what we really are. Nobody agrees on everything, even when it comes to the ideal world.

There is no such thing as right and wrong, only opinion. Society determins what is to be classafied as right and wrong.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1529531 - 05/08/03 02:13 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

in my opinion god does not "view" anything in anyway. it all simply is, and as such it is an expression of an aspect of God. i guess the short answer to your question is 'yes', but you should take into account the conecpt of God you have in your mind is obviously drastically different than the concept i have, if it wasnt you wouldnt be asking these questions


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530083 - 05/08/03 07:45 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

JohnnyRespect, your immediate assumption is a strict 'objective' division between GOD in His/Her Immanence, and discrete human 'souls.' I am not a pantheist, so please do not interpret this to mean that in some way we are GOD. No. GOD'S Immanent Nature creates, contributes to our moment-to-moment lives.

GOD is Creator, and like classic Hindu theology, also a Sustainer and a Destroyer. GOD does not "intervene," or for that matter 'interfere' with the affairs of men. GOD is creating and sustaining the universe without interruption of these Divine 'actions,' which are really aspects of GOD'S Nature. Creation is not a 'thing' that was made and left to operate - that is the Divine Watchmaker idea of centuries past. If anything, sentient, contingent beings (like us) are 'interactive' with GOD - the GROUND OF BEING - from which we derive our moment-to-moment existence. Creation is never severed from GOD'S creative and sustaining Nature. GOD is the Eternal Source from which the matrix of space-time emerges.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/08/03 07:48 AM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1530472 - 05/08/03 12:46 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Well, if god doesn't invervene or interfere with the affairs of men, why bother with him? Why pray? Why go to church? Why "talk" with god? If we beleive that God doesn't interfere or intervene, asking god for help with lifes issues is like asking a rock for help, both of them won't help us out (actually even worse, myabe the rock would be used to help you in some way). I think that if God doesn't intervene in human matters for any reason (Even to spare us from suffering, or huge loss of human life), then it's foolish to even bother with him. I also feel that if, as Christianity preaches, if you don't accept Jesus, then you burn in hell, and your actions are totally irrrelavent to the decision as to wether ornot you'll burn in hell, then God is a mean tyrant. God created man knowing (if he is all-knowing) that the majority of humanity would never even be exposed to his teachings, let alone accept that Jesus is his son, and the savior of man. Basically, following this premise, God, the all-knowing, created an almost uncountable number of people who he knew would never be exposed to the "truthts" that one must accept to go to heaven after death. He also created man for the sole reason of worshipping him. So now we have a God that won't interfere in human matters (even to help us, to allievate our suffering, or to save lives), and that demands that we worship him (and believe Jesus was his son) or we'll burn in the firey pits of hell forever! On top of that, God doesn't even use his magestic awe-inspiring powers (such as he did with Saul) to show the world that he exists so we have something tangible to grasp onto. he makes it so that the majority of the world never hears the truths that they must for salvation, and he doesn't do anything to change this! If God intervened before on behalf of saving man (saving our souls, actually), why doesn't he do it now? God sounds more like saddam than a "loving compassionate" god. Also, how could god "love" us so much, but not intervene to show heexists? If God is a perfect being, then his love would be a perfect love. An unconditional love where he accepts that humans have hte potential to fail and to not belive what he wants us to. If humans can have, or can cultivate, unconditional love for each other, but God can't, does that mean that his love for us is less perfect than the love some humans have for others?

If this is truely the case, and god is real, then I say to hell with him. I'd rather burn forever than worship on bended knee to a god that will never help me out(no intervention) and that won't do something "god-like" to make me belive that he exists, and that Jesus was his son. If that is how he is, then the entire point of humanity is just so God can have people to worship him and so he can make people that he knows will never have a chance to worship him, and they juts get to burn in hell forever. If that is how god is, then fuck him.

Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530513 - 05/08/03 01:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

to hell with him!


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530581 - 05/08/03 01:40 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Youre still missing the point. God's will is expressed through humans and everything else for that matter. You are part of it.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1530629 - 05/08/03 01:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If every human behaves through God's will, then that would mean that sin originated with God, not with man, as we would be unable to "create" anything ourselves. If your statement is correct, and man is just a way for god to act out his beliefs (Since god is alive in each of us and it's his will that we are folllowing out), then humanity is nothing more than a few billion toys that god has in his sand box that he manipulates how he wants. I think that anyway you look at it, a "God" like that takes away every bit of value of human life. IT also would take away all responsibilty for our actions, if they are the "will" of god.

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530702 - 05/08/03 02:20 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

There is no such thing as "sin", that word is human invention. And the fact that God's will is expressed through human beings, (among billions of other life forms and all physical matter), well, that would mean people killing each other and being bastards would be a lot more like manipulating God's will than vice versa, but even that isn't happening. Can you not think outside of your current idea of God being a seperate entity, even briefly? How can humans be Gods sandbox toys when the sandbox toys are an extension of God himself?


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1530827 - 05/08/03 03:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If god and humans are the same, and humans are imperfect creatures, then god is an imperfect god.  Also, if God and humans are the same, or humans are extention of God, then god damning people to hell is like.. him sending himself to hell.  Which would be OK since the devil would also be a part of god.  See why religion is so stupid? :wink:



--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530844 - 05/08/03 03:11 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

All I see is that you aren't following what I'm saying at all.

A) Hell does not exist
B) The devil does not exist
C) Nothing is 'imperfect'



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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530847 - 05/08/03 03:11 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I do agree with you that religion is stupid though.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1530896 - 05/08/03 03:24 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Fiend  - I'm not questiniong YOUR beliefs, I'm questioning the tenants of Christianity :smile: I don't belive in god, heaven, hell or sin.  However, my debate is with a Christan, and I'm oging to drive to NC to meet my cousins preacher, so I'd like information relative to that :smile:  If a muslim posted in here how none of it was real, it wouldn't matter, because i'm not dealing with the islamic religion :smile:

I think that we agree on a lot of things tho, so please don't take this as a flame or anything. Also, I really like those three books you have as your sig, I'm going to aquire them all soon.

Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530949 - 05/08/03 03:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

lol i keep forgetting this thread is pertaining to the argument with your cousin, my bad :grin:


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1530976 - 05/08/03 03:44 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

heh n/p :smile: I think that you and i share the same religious beliefs, actually. that is, religion is stupid :smile:


jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531176 - 05/08/03 04:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You are not dialoguing with me. It would seem that you are in dialogue with your own mental conditioning, not with anything I've said. You're having a monologue. If you wish to have a dialogue with me, re-read MY post, focus on the word "interactive," and stay on task. All you're doing is bringing more half-baked assumptions about fundamentalist Christianity into your response to me, and you're not paying the least bit of attention to the things that I have actually written. Then, you're coming to some childishly emotional conclusions based on stuff that YOU have written. Better yet, read some credible book on theology first (like something by John Shelby Spong), before you go off like this again. Whoever you're responding to, it's not me or anything I've written. Wake up to the fact that you're projecting your own misinformation about Christianity onto me.

You also have a good deal of confusion about the literal and metaphorical reading of Scriptures, the historical and the mythological levels. I don't know your chronological age, but the sadistic game-plan that you describe of Deity is a distorted fundamentalist's story to a young child. It is the 'theology' of one of those Chick Publication booklets you find under your windshield wiper.

Religion is a set of traditions that are intended to 'embody' or 'contain' the Sacred. If you do not know what Sacrality or Holiness consist in, yet you hang out in a spirituality forum, I gotta wonder what's up with you. Do you still practice adolescent rebelliousness in this domain? Is it fun to go on a spirituality forum and make childish statements like 'religion is stupid'? I mean, religion is religion - choose to understand what it means or don't, but do yourself a favor and resist the temptation to make a statement like that, which really IS stupid. Meanwhile, I'll get smarter by not wasting my time responding to people who opinionize based on emotion instead of philosophize.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/08/03 05:11 PM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1531186 - 05/08/03 04:47 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Markos - for the third time :smile: I'm asking this question in relation to my cousins basic christian beliefs :smile:  Which is fundamentalist christianity! Have you notread that?  I      AM      NOT    DISCUSING    YOUR    FAITH    OR    YOUR    RELIGIOUS  BELIEFS... I am discussing the fundamental christian beliefs.  Was that clear enough :smile:

Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532305 - 05/08/03 10:41 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The way your post is written certainly does not exactly inform one that they are supposed to be adopting a retarded fundamentalist view of God before proceeding to argue with you.  Read it from the beginning, maybe you will see hy people keep coming back with alternative arguments.  Your first post does not make the kind of argument you are trying to have clear at all :tongue:


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532338 - 05/08/03 10:57 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Greets,
I have been agnostic (with a more athestical llean) for as long as I can recall. here is one question that I'd like to discuss, see what you all think.

The question is: If God is omnipotent, if he is the "is all and be all", if god has forseen the end of life, then it goes to say that he knows what our next move will be.  God knows exactly what we will do in 5 minutes, and in 5 years.  This puts God in a position much like I would be if I were to see a play that I had read 50 times.  I'd know, for sure, how everything will be done, and how it will end.  Now, gods onmipotence then means that humans don't have free will, because no matter what you say, if god know what our actions are, and he knows FOR SURE what they are, then they are scripted out already.  We might as well sit on the floor in the dark until we die.  Do you think that "God"s omnipotence means that humans don't have free will? If not, how else could it be?  I thank all contributors to this thread :smile:

Jr 




See, no where there does it say anything about your cousin.  To someone with a different kind of view on spirituality, that question is irrelavant almost to the point of being nonsensical.  To someone with a fundamentalist view, those statements alone should be enough to make them seriously wonder, since free will is so readily demonstrable.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1532368 - 05/08/03 11:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I do specifically state 'if' a number of times, therefore setting the conditions on the conversatio. sorry if I didn't explicitly state that the conversation was in relation to my cousin's ideals, but I did make anumber of 'if god..." etc.


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532391 - 05/08/03 11:14 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I am not discussing MY beliefs with you, I'm trying to give you straight-up theology, but to no avail. FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIANITY IS NOT TRUE CHRISTIANITY - IT IS A HERESY - A WRONG VIEW. It is taking midrash (Jewish story-telling that is meant to impart a spiritual truth) with a literal, historical understanding. It is the thinking process of a child, or of a 'adult' who is developmentally stuck in immature Concrete Operational Thinking. It is the simplistic and erroneous confusion of religious myth with historical events. It is the 'magical thinking' of childhood without the possibility of comprehending symbolic or transrational (beyond rational) mentation, because [s]he has not achieved adult rational thought (Formal Operational Thought).

If you want to discuss beliefs, you're going to have to first understand the different degrees of mentality with which to discuss them. If you think that the simpletons of this world have the true grasp of these things, then I, for one, cannot give you the kind of answer that you expect, because I am not a simpleton, and metaphysical questions require very sophisticated answers - not captions to a child's picturebook of Bible Stories. Is THIS clear enough for you?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1532542 - 05/09/03 12:12 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Since every Christian preaching offical (from priests to southern babtist ministrs) have shared this view, I Dn't know how "unorthodox' it is. still, yu can't refute the 'if's in my initial post.


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532588 - 05/09/03 12:24 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

yu can't refute the 'if's in my initial post.




And you obviously completely lack the ability to start from scratch in an understanding of what God means that would allow you to see that I did "refute" the ifs.


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532600 - 05/09/03 12:27 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Namely you seem to constantly want to transpose human ideals and behavior onto whatever God could possibly be.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1533882 - 05/09/03 08:30 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

hiya markos...
i just love those chick publications... they have full-sized color comics, as well as those little black& white pamphlet dealies...
as to heretical beliefs... well, heh, it all depends on who is applying the label, hmm? a terrifyingly large number of americans (and no doubt others around the world) who consider themselves christians would agree with the "theology" presented in jack chick's waco TX fundy publishing tracts...
amd as to jr's contention that a catholic priest and a southern baptist minister would be buying into the same interpretation of the way the world wags, well... (not to mention other christian and christian-derived theologies, such as quakers, JWs, swedenborgians, lutherans (of several "flavors"), LDS, methodists, unitarians, UCC, unity, unification ("moonies"), orthodox communions, anglicans, presbyterians, etc. --- there are, what, 10,000 (at least) denominations, synods, sects, splinter groups, cults, whatever-ya-wanna-call-'em, that could be broadly considered to be followers of christ in one way or another... and a god-awful lot of 'em willing to call the others apostates, heretics, strayed from "the way" & going to hell in a bucket, hehheh... & certainly willing to condemn the other monotheistic faiths, and other world religions farther afield, as infidels, heathens, idol-worshippers, pagans, & just plain awful people all a'gonna burn in a lake of fire for eternity...
what a world, what a world...and of course, there are others who call themselves christians who recognize the universal themes embodied in christianity, who acknowedge the legitmacy in other systems of belief, who practice openness & acceptance (while maintaining the centrality of their faith in their lives), who see all humanity as children of a loving god, and recognize that every person has a hole that only god can fill, who judge not (lest they be judged also); and some who even recognize that their story is one myth among many, a way (some contend the best way, perhaps) but not necessarily the only way to approach the central mystery...
what a world...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: gnrm23]
    #1534258 - 05/09/03 12:15 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

My inital post sets up the conditions for the conversation. If the conditions to which I apply to God are real.... that is how hte conversation goes. Most of the people that belive in god don't have degrees in theology. However, every single Christian taht I have spoken to believes you must accept Christ to go to Heaven, and that is the sole way to get into heaven. I'm going with that definition because the majority of hte people that I have discussions with in real life believe in that definition of the God.

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: gnrm23]
    #1535226 - 05/09/03 06:12 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"...what a world, what a world..."
- Margaret Hamilton, 1939, as the Wicked Witch of the West in
The Wizard of Oz

Yes to all, but I need to make a point here, because all too many people, and Shroomerites in particular, have this unfortunate brainwashing with regard to this thing called Christianity, and then 'throw the baby out with the baptismal water.' But thanks for your two cents, they're usually worth a million bucks!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1535488 - 05/09/03 08:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Every single Christian I have discussed this matter with, including now three priests, a presbyterian minister, a mormon minister, and a babtist preacher (with three Ph D's in god shit) have stated the same basic tenents.

First, if you don't belive in Jesus, you go to hell. Actions don't cut it.

Secondly, God is not an intervening god.  That is why 9/11 happened, that is why underage children are involved in pornography, that is why people are starving.

If you don't agree with these, then you aren't a mainstream christian, from my gatherings.


Jr


:smile:


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1535549 - 05/09/03 08:27 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"God is not an intervening god."

uhh ok then how'd we get here according to these guys? he only "intervened" back before people were asking these kinds of questions?

edit: remove "uhh ok then" from first question - that's mean.. heh sorry


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/10/03 03:25 AM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: A question about God... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1535675 - 05/09/03 09:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"God" intervenes when the "Church" feels like it.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1535767 - 05/09/03 10:35 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

God created the earth and humanity, then he ceased after man's betrayl in the garden of eden. Man was left to ourselves. Except when he interefered in alot of places in the bible :-) The way I usually get the answer that god isn't an intervening god is when I ask "How could god have allowed 9/11 to happen?" or some other tragedy. Well, god gives us free will he does! Doesn't intervene with humans affairs! Well, didn't god intervene with Saul, showing Saul God's true existance? If god can do that for Saul, whjy not for everyone?

:0


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1536643 - 05/10/03 10:27 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You got it professor - I'm NOT a mainstream Christian. Firstly, I'm a Jewish Christian. Secondly, I hold certain Gnostic understandings about GOD and His Christ, thirdly, I believe that there are three distinct 'types' of humans who comprehend these things in very distinctive ways, which accounts for the obvious discrepancies.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1536798 - 05/10/03 12:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Well, the majority of mainstream christianity, the religion that is the most dominant her ein the good ole US of, DOES believe the tenents that I outlined.  Most of them blindy believe it, but I'eve found a few religious teachers that allow people to dissent with their opinions, and are very cool about it.  From my understanding of Judaism, you don't have to believe in "god" or (obviously) Jesus, you just have to live your life as a good person.  If you do that, and god really does love us and want us to be happy, then you've completed the plan that god had for humans.


Jr :smile:


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1536938 - 05/10/03 02:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

JohnnyRespect: From my understanding of Judaism, you don't have to believe in "god" or (obviously) Jesus, you just have to live your life as a good person. If you do that, and god really does love us and want us to be happy, then you've completed the plan that god had for humans.

If every religious person had this view, I wouldn't have a problem with religion.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1537253 - 05/10/03 05:32 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

sclorch - I totally agree. It's when humans dictate to humans the way of God ("belive XYZ or burn in helll") that I begin to have a problem not with religion, and not with christIANITY, but with christIANS.


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537342 - 05/10/03 06:26 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

In response to Johnny Respect on his understanding of Judaism:

You have to be kidding me.......Judaism, you don't have to believe in God. No you are right......you HAVE to believe in YAHWEH, the God of Israel. Hell, Judaism is a hell of a lot more rigid about their relationship with their God than Christians are. Just look at the entire old testament. What about the covenant formed between God and his 'chosen people'? : The nation of Israel. Ha..doesn't have to believe in God LOL


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537429 - 05/10/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

3MJ3- Our local rabbi told me that in Judaism, it's your acts rather than your beliefs that get you to heaven. Whist Christians are out converting anything that moves, Jews, if you ask to convert, tell you it's not necessary, they make you as kthree times, you don't HAVE to be a Jew to go to heaven, you don't HAVE to belive in God to go to heaven. Maybe you can use some more "lol"s and deride her rabinical knowledge? She is only a PhD in jewish studies...where'd your degree come from?
:-)


jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537435 - 05/10/03 07:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

That was not the question at hand my refuting friend.....

You said in your understanding of judaism you don't nessecarily have to believe in God. This was quoted directly from one of your posts. I was just pointing to the facts that if you are jewish and practice judaism, that comes with the pre-requisite that you believe in the God of Israel. Nothing more.

i&I


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: A question about God... [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537465 - 05/10/03 07:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

That is correct - if you wanna be Jewish, you'd better believe what they tell you dammit!


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1538194 - 05/11/03 01:12 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Your lady Rabbi, and I use the title Rabbi loosely here, despite a doctoral degree from wherever (could be a mail order doctorate from some California, non-accredited virtual school, not a reputable Yeshiva), is entitled to believe and say anything she wants, but it is a Covenant with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that makes one a Jew in the spiritual meaning of the word. Atheist Jew is an oxymoron, while those who believe that one can be of the Jewish FAITH, without having any FAITH, are simply morons.

As for Heaven in Judaism, this is the most concealed issue of the religion. If one isn't an observant Orthodox Jew, with a certain knowledge of the Zohar and Kabbala (both esoteric aspects of the religion), then one is not going to hear anything about Heaven. In my own Reformed Jewish family, the word Heaven was reserved for a profoundly retarded uncle of mine who was institutionalized for most of his life, when he inquired about the whereabouts of his deceased parents. This may well be representative of a majority of secular American 'Jews.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1539329 - 05/11/03 05:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Markos- My intent was to state that Jews do not hold the belief that heaven is accessable only through their path, or through belief in god in general. If someone is a theist, no matter what religon, they they do believe in God. However, a Christian would tell an a-theist(non believer in any god, lets go with that def) that they are going to burn in hell. A jew would say "Your actions dictate where you go"

thats all I was saying :-) Also, Rabbi Garfunkle is a fully fledged Rabbi, and she obtained her degrees in Israel.

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineBrugman
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1539390 - 05/11/03 06:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I don't ever post here but I'd like to point out that humans think too much.
I want to be a bird..


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OfflineMurex
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Re: A question about God... [Re: Brugman]
    #1539402 - 05/11/03 06:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Ignorance is bliss.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1541045 - 05/12/03 08:00 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You think in terms of gross stereotypes man. Grossly inaccurate, uncritical generalizations.

Whereas good works are certainly the only way that one can manifest ethics and morals in the world, morality based on utilitarian principles (like fictional Vulcan ethics: 'The good of the many, over the good of the few, or the one,' in Gene Rodenberry creations) are not salvific in Judaism. The original Abrahamic faith, was a story of a man's faith response (an action) to sacrifice the one thing he held most valuable in life - his son Isaac. Today, we would think him quite mad, and dangerous, but the story is about a faith response to GOD. It is the basis of Judaic faith, as well as Islamic faith, not to mention the whole Christian 'by faith alone' theology, and it clearly contradicts ANY notion of good works. The sacrifice of one's son just doesn't fit the bill when it comes to human morals, but it does describe the righteousness of trusting in GOD. Soren Kierkegaard made much of this in his writings.

Now you may not understand the appelation 'Jewish Christian,' and consider it to be oxymoronic, but the original Jewish believers in The Way were all Jews, and those who continued to practice circumcision and other Jewish rituals were called Ebionites, historically. I come from a Jewish upbringing, but came to accept Christ some 27 years ago. I understand faith in the Abrahamic sense as a Jewish Christian, and I have never presumed to threaten anyone with Hell, since Judgement is a metaphysical reality determined by someone's spiritual status in/with GOD, not man. Intellectual concepts held in mind are not salvific in themselves. Every yokel who merely 'thinks' he's 'saved,' isn't. That salvation manifests itself both interiorly and exteriorly in the ethics of Compassionate action.
Otherwise, it's just bulls**t.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/12/03 11:18 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1541140 - 05/12/03 10:10 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yup, says this yokel. :wink:

Well said. :smile:

Cheers,


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Offline3MJ3
i&I
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 102
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1541279 - 05/12/03 11:21 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Vulcan Ethics?

I'll help you out.....it was Bentham who developed 'act utilitarianism' which sought to seek the end result with the best outcome for the greatest number of people.

Please for my sake...do not equate Startrek with Great men :wink:

Other than that...I have a similairly devoloped faith to yours...but instead of being brought up in the Judaic doctrine and accepting Christian theology, I was brought up Catholic, and came to accept the Judaic doctrine even more.

i&I


Edited by 3MJ3 (05/12/03 11:23 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Registered: 12/10/99
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Re: A question about God... [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1543172 - 05/12/03 11:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the intention, but, whether Jeremy Bentham, or J.S. Mill, or whomever (I took an entire course on utilitarianism - hated it), I used Vulcan ethics to give a fictional flavor, and hence a less-than-ultimately-real sense to ethics that do not derive from a Transcendendental Source. At least, that was my intention, but I appreciate your thoughtful addition.

As I heard in seminary: 'The Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament, the New Testament is concealed in the Old Testament.' I've always rather liked that.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1544668 - 05/13/03 11:33 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think God is a trickster, a joker, and if I ever meet him am going to have some serious word with him!
He/she/it throes me into this life, with out any explanation of what I have to do or not do, to make things even worse, I have all the other monkeys telling me the way to him but no one knows crap for sure.
I ask him for advice she doesn?t not answer :frown:.
I think it enjoys all of this, finds it amusing, how I go crazy for a way.
Well what can I do or say, God bless you!
 


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: LOBO]
    #1544830 - 05/13/03 12:49 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

pfff God isn't a trickster....... Have you considered that he's not real?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/13/03 01:13 PM)


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OfflineRuNE
bomberman

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,331
Loc: tartarus
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1544852 - 05/13/03 01:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Johnny: Back when i was an 'athiest', i tried to do what you've been trying to do, for about 3 years straight. (mechanic school, 2hrs per day). You're wasting your breath, especialy if the person has been programed for quite a while now.
But truthfully, i think both of you need to learn something.

Find a place, find some time, and go find 1/2oz of shrooms. Split it with your cousin. Wake up the next day, and THEN, you will be ready for a discussion.


Because quite honestly, the winners of this debate are Brugman and Murex.

=]



--------------------
~Happy sailing~


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Offline3MJ3
i&I
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 102
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: RuNE]
    #1544886 - 05/13/03 01:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

There are no winners of this debate ultimately.....

It is only ignorant people who think they can use LOGIC to argue something that is beyond logic, that is beyond reason.

Believing that their is a greater creator is not logical, not reasonble, .....it is based on spirituality, not proof.....understand?

Markos: I like that "the old testament is found in the new, vice versa" :smile: because it is truth.


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