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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Question on one of J.C.'s teachings...
    #1142445 - 12/15/02 05:59 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

If I have sinned by lusting after my neighbor's wife; and in Jesus' words, there is no difference between the thought and the act in the eyes of God, should I just go ahead and pound her on the kitchen table and incur no greater stain on my soul once I have already had the thought?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142450 - 12/15/02 06:02 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Go for it.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142470 - 12/15/02 06:10 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

should I just go ahead and pound her on the kitchen table and incur no greater stain on my soul once I have already had the thought?

Not on my table....Thou shalt not fucketh where I eateth my bread

You might not stain your soul any further, but watch the table cloth.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1142477 - 12/15/02 06:13 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Thou shalt not fucketh where I eateth my bread.

LOL! Ah, the "lost" 11th Commandment resurfaces...



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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142494 - 12/15/02 06:20 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

How big is her husband?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142496 - 12/15/02 06:20 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I wonder if Jesus said half of the things attributed to him



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Mp3 of the month:  The Fe-Fi-Four Plus 2 - I Wanna Come Back (From the World of LSD)


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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142520 - 12/15/02 06:30 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Only if your neighbor gets to fornicate your wife on your kitchen table. The act commited as retribution for your previous sins may have viable substituion rights whereas the kitchen table may be substituted for either A) your couch, or B) your washing machine (unbalanced by 4 loin cloths, creating a rocking motion), but only if the committee agrees to forfit the virgin rights of his 19 year old daughter upon a day which menstruation is minimal.

Acknowledge, ponder, and discuss.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Phluck]
    #1142522 - 12/15/02 06:32 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

How big is her husband?

So the physical implications are more important than the spiritual implications?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142533 - 12/15/02 06:37 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I think you misunderstand what Jesus meant by that.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142563 - 12/15/02 07:00 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Even Carl Sagan can point out your illogical interpretation.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Zahid]
    #1142592 - 12/15/02 07:17 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

You can "channel" Carl Sagan? Cool!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Revelation]
    #1142596 - 12/15/02 07:19 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I think you misunderstand what Jesus meant by that.

Perhaps that is why I asked the question...



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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142601 - 12/15/02 07:23 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Phluck:
How big is her husband?

Swami:
So the physical implications are more important than the spiritual implications?




Yes, they are... especially if he's well hung, bisexual and surprises you from behind during the act.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142691 - 12/15/02 08:22 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

... with one sin you go to hell, so whats the worry of a few more?

This reminds me of a poem I saw once:

Murder is evil,
Evil is Sin,
Sin is forgiven,
So do it again!


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Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142710 - 12/15/02 08:31 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Okay. This is what I think it means, but i'm not very good at expressing this type of thing, so it's Be Here Now to the rescue again..

"Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven

Unless you start again. become that trusting open surrendered being, the energy can't come in. that is the kingdom of heaven."

It isn't about sin really, it's about purifying the mind. How could you become one with god if you're mind is at a level which is below god? It doesn't "fit".

It's not like god is punishing you or anything. It's just the way it works. It couldn't be any other way.

The reason there is no difference between the thought and the act is because, in terms of conscioussness, there just isn't too much of a difference. It's about conscioussness.

When you take away the idea of it all being about punishment and eternal damnation, then it begins to make sense.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Revelation]
    #1142723 - 12/15/02 08:39 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

How could you become one with god if you're mind is at a level which is below god?

Doesn't creating a dichotomy by saying reproductive instincts are "bad" further divide us through guilt and make us less whole or less holy?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142728 - 12/15/02 08:43 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Yes it does.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142794 - 12/15/02 09:26 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I don't really care about the spiritual reasons. I'd say if you're a decent person, you'd care about the husband's feelings, and know that this would be horrible for him.

Maybe you hate the husband... in which case, yes, the physical implications are more important.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Anonymous

Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1142874 - 12/15/02 10:00 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Monogamy is one of the biggest scams and means of control humanity has ever devised. I highly doubt the real historical Jesus ever said such a thing to begin with.

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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: ]
    #1142880 - 12/15/02 10:02 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)


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Anonymous

Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: ]
    #1143266 - 12/15/02 12:33 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

To each his own, my friend.

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1144165 - 12/15/02 06:25 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

You're such an inspiration for the ways that I'll never ever choose to be
Oh so many ways for me to show you how the savior has abandoned you
Fuck your God
Your Lord and your Christ
He did this
Took all you had and
Left you this way
Still you pray, you never stray
Never taste of the fruit
You never thought to question why

It's not like you killed someone
It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
Praise the one who left you
Broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you
He did it all for you

Oh so many many ways for me to show you
How your dogma has abandoned you
Pray to your Christ, to your god
Never taste of the fruit
Never stray, never break
Never---choke on a lie
Even though he's the one who did this to you
You never thought to question why

Not like you killed someone
It's Not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side
Talk to Jesus Christ
As if he knows the reasons why
He did it all for you
Did it all for you
He did it all for you..

Judith- APC (MJK)


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1144308 - 12/15/02 07:47 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

...in Jesus' words, there is no difference between the thought and the act in the eyes of God...

Then we are all fucked, presuming there is a God. This is another illustration of the inherent unreasonableness of religion.

To a reasonable person, it makes no difference whatsoever if you yearn to act in evil ways as long as you restrain yourself from so doing. Who has been harmed? No one. As a matter of fact, it could be argued you should get extra credit for operating at a disadvantage, because you are making a conscious effort to behave properly while someone who isn't subject to the same yearning is just cruising.

This is like that woman thing where it's not enough that you take her to a chick flick even though you hate chick flicks; as a matter of fact she'll get pissed because she knows you didn't WANT to do it. For them, it's not enough to do it because you know it makes them happy, oh no -- you have to WANT to do it. As you leave the theater to retrieve your car, the following exchange occurs:

You: "What's the matter? Didn't you say you wanted to see Titanic?"

She: "Well how could I possibly enjoy the movie when I knew that you were sitting there hating every minute? It spoiled the whole thing!"

You: "Did I give any indication I was hating it? Was I squirming or groaning or something?"

She: "You didn't HAVE to do anything. I just knew."

You: "Let me get this straight. It would have been better if you went by yourself?"

She: "I didn't say THAT!"

You: "So it was better that we went to see it together, right? Which is what we did, right? Help me out, here."

She: "Oh, you don't understand ANYTHING!"

pinky


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Phred]
    #1144406 - 12/16/02 02:35 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Poor pinky! If you only understood women... LOL!

What I like is how they hold on to minor "infractions" and then put them in their internal bank to collect interest. Then they will be withdrawn years later during a completely unrelated moment. "You bastard! Do you remember when you embarrassed me in front of my mother in 1996?!" And you are like, "Huh?" "Yes, you used the dinner fork instead of the salad fork.."


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Phred]
    #1144421 - 12/16/02 02:49 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Ah yes Pink, I have often felt abstruse philosophical concepts were easier to discern than a woman's heart.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: ]
    #1144809 - 12/16/02 05:47 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I feel bad for you guys... I found a cool chick.
SHE actually bitches about chick flicks.


Sorry... not trying to brag, just letting you know that cool women DO exist.
I've actually run into a few... most in my town (just because that's where I spend the most time) and one across the Atlantic. But I'm sure there are MANY more out there (who are single).

I dunno... maybe I just have a good net. All the insecure dumbasses slip through the holes and I'm left with a catch. Oh and I haven't had an intimate relationship with all of them (hell, only a couple- for various convenience factors and whatnot), so that's not throwing off my judgement.

BTW, sorry about furthering this tangent.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1144815 - 12/16/02 05:49 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Are you sure that she is NOT a guy who had an operation?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1144817 - 12/16/02 05:49 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, there are lots of cool chicks.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1144874 - 12/16/02 06:09 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Are you sure that she is NOT a guy who had an operation?

Absolutely... ya silly bastard!


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1144892 - 12/16/02 06:13 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

The skeptic in me won't believe you until I do a personal in-depth examination when I visit in the spring. I MUST make sure that you are not deluding yourself.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (12/16/02 04:31 PM)

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1145620 - 12/16/02 10:18 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Sexual repreension. That's one of many typical "moral" aspect of the church, it's a result of a machist culture were this aspect evolves from the simple fact that man needs to be sure his descendants have his genes, in other words "nobody fucks with my wife besides myself".
Some like to be at the edge of danger and join M.I.L.F though.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Phred]
    #1145626 - 12/16/02 10:20 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

thought -> I want to beep her but I should not because -insert appropriate reason-

act -> I have the chance, but I don't beep her

--

thought -> I want to beep her, and I am going to do it tonight (who gives a shit about her husband anyway)

act -> Circumstances do not allow it, so I don't beep her

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1145800 - 12/16/02 11:24 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

A friend of mine meets lots of cool chicks...

but then, he works in a morgue.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1146053 - 12/16/02 01:04 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, so while I was looking into your question, I looked up the 9th commandment, and happened to stumble on the King James version (the original biblical version):

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." Exodus 20:17

Hmmm, we've changed it considerably since the King James version.  So I wonder:  what gives us the right to change the bible around (to include the 10 commandments themselves)?  Does that mean it's now ok for me to covet my neighbor's maidservant?  :blush:   


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1146115 - 12/16/02 01:26 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

To me Covet means you would do it if you thought could get away with it.

Just wanting something doesn't make it a sin. As long as you feel that it would be "wrong" and would not do it even if there were no physical, or spiritual risk.


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Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
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\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
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(•_•)
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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Revelation]
    #1146194 - 12/16/02 01:46 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

You seem to know more about Christianity than the rest of us. So here's a related question:

One of my teachers displayed a topless Playboy centerfold in class a few lessons ago, and my very Christian friend was extremely upset with her that she would do such a thing, because he lusted after the centerfold and therefore believed he had committed a sin.

Now, my question is this:
Since we know he lusts after topless Playboy centerfolds, isn?t he guilty of sin whether the picture is shown to him or not? All?s the picture does is remind him that he has this shameful desire to begin with.

And I would totally have to agree with Swami?s logic: he might as well go after the centerfold now, since ?there is no difference between the thought and the act in the eyes of God?


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1146321 - 12/16/02 03:57 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Right on Swami. Nice loophole :wink:


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1146349 - 12/16/02 04:06 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

What class was that in?

I really wouldn't like to covet my neighbors' ass, unless my neighbor was a good-looking female.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Murex]
    #1146436 - 12/16/02 04:26 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Haha!  It was a law class, believe it or not.  The issue was whether or not the centerfold was allowed to set up her own private website, with the heading "Playboy Playmate of the Year 1981" (since the "Playboy" name was copyrighted).  The answer was that she could, because there wasn't another good way to describe that accomplishment, and because her website had disclaimers saying that it wasn't affiliated with or endorsed by Playboy.  :smile: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Anonymous

Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1146589 - 12/16/02 05:10 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

For clarification purposes I was not implying that women are not cool, just hard to understand at times.

Also, I love chick flicks.

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: ]
    #1147103 - 12/16/02 07:25 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I love chick flicks.

Huh huh....huh ha ha ha.  :smile:

I love chick flicks.

Huh huh....huh ha ha ha.  :smile:

I love chick flicks.

Huh huh....huh ha ha ha.  :smile:

I love chick flicks.

Huh huh....huh ha ha ha.  :smile:

I love chick flicks.

Huh huh....huh ha ha ha.  :smile:

I love chick flicks.

Huh huh....huh ha ha ha.  :blush:

I love chick flicks.

Huh huh....huh ha ha ha.  :tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Anonymous

Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Murex]
    #1147110 - 12/16/02 07:28 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

You're a nut!

Cheers,

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: ]
    #1147197 - 12/16/02 08:15 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

no sssssshhhhh he's talking to himself leave him alone

but i don't want to.

well you really should.

why what for?

because he's talking to himself! that's fuckin crazy dude

pfff crazy hazy

exactly. its crazy

hmm.. yeah. yeah i guess it is. ok lets shut up

k ssshhhhh

starting now

sssshhhh!!!!!!!!


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1147418 - 12/16/02 11:59 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

In human BEINGS, Swami, the "reproductive instincts" do not remain alone on an elemental animal level. They, like other motivations, symbolized on the chakra ladder of consciousness, are vehicles that manifest other levels of being. The Kabbalaistic sephiroth illustrates this in terms of the various 'emanations' of God, of which our being is comprised.

One may insist on acting as a mammal - a human animal - but it is against the spiritual nature of being human that one is insisting upon. As the prophet Nathan taught King David long ago, he sinned greatly by allowing his lust to overcome his compassion and kingly detachment, which led to his sending Bathsheba's husband, Uriah, to the front lines to be killed, so that he could have the man's wife. Nathan tells David a midrash about how a poor man with only one lamb has it taken by a powerful, wealthy man with everything at his command. David becomes furious and demands that Nathan bring the man to him for justice. Nathan says, "You are that man!," and David up and realizes the gravity of his sins, and is convicted by his own conscience.

Compassion, Swami. The violation of Compassion rather than the governing of one's desire by Compassion is sin. It increases the existential suffering, depite the temporary pleasure-rush. The damage to one's humanity outweighs the rush, for the spiritually aware individual. Sacrifice for Compassion is ego-death; it is truth-in-action, not armchair philosophy. It is not mere Utlilitarianism for me, but an act of faith to defy temptation. Of course, that's just me.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1147852 - 12/17/02 04:46 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

but an act of faith to defy temptation

All that you say is fine. But to defy temptation, the impure thought must first be there. For example, a gay man has NO temptation towards another's wife because it is not in his nature.

So we are back to my original question, once you have already had the impure thought, then according to Jesus you have sinned just as if you had physically done the act. If there is no difference between thought and act, then what is the added harm in doing the act? Please explain this paradox.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1147881 - 12/17/02 05:05 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I think you missed Swami's point.  While I don't disagree at all with what you said, I don?t think your esoteric interpretation of Kabbalism is what Jesus preached.  I think Swami was simply pointing out the fact that if you literally wanted to follow the teachings of Jesus, then once you?ve had the THOUGHT of lust, then you?re equally screwed in the eyes of Jesus as if you follow through with the thought, so at that point, you might as well go through with the act!

Edit:  Hey Swami!  I just noticed you got an answer out before me.  I think we basically said the same thing though.  Interesting topic for discussion!  :laugh:


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (12/17/02 05:18 AM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1147904 - 12/17/02 05:23 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Zakkly Blue. :smile:

For the record, this is a mere hypothetical. I do not fool around with married women, not do I advocate it. 


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1147978 - 12/17/02 05:47 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

You know Swami, you really shouldn't pick on Christianity. It's just way too easy to do. I know you've already seen this post before, but I'll repost it here for the benefit of those who haven't seen it yet:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum11&Number=1027545&Forum=All_Forums&Words=schlessinger&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=2500&Old=allposts&Main=1011101&Search=true#Post1027545

This letter was sent to Dr. Laura Schlessinger. Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a us radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. eecently she said that homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstances. the following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord -- Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness -- Lev. 15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination -- Lev. 11:10-- it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -- Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148823 - 12/17/02 11:01 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

LMFAO!!! :laugh: :cool: :smile: :wink: :grin:

I'm printing this one out.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1148866 - 12/17/02 11:18 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I actually didn't believe it when I first read it, so I did an internet search of the references that are given.  Sure enough, EVERY ONE of those items are TRUE!  :laugh: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148900 - 12/17/02 11:28 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I never suggested that Jesus taught Kabbalism that came a thousand years later. I suggested that as human beings, our motives are multi-levelled with a Divine Source.

Whether Jesus ever actually said those words is questionable, perhaps they are intended to place the locus of control within the Will, not just the outer behavior. It is ridiculous to think that one would be OK to go ahead and violate OT law.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1148929 - 12/17/02 11:39 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Did Dr. Laura respond?

If so, what was the response?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1149044 - 12/17/02 12:16 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I never suggested that Jesus taught Kabbalism that came a thousand years later

Right, but I think you did imply that Kabbalism is the standard we should live by as opposed to Jesus' literal teachings.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Murex]
    #1149049 - 12/17/02 12:18 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Did Dr. Laura respond?

No.  :grin: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Invisiblei am e goldstein
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Swami]
    #1149156 - 12/17/02 12:51 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: i am e goldstein]
    #1149163 - 12/17/02 12:54 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

i also believe he didn't say half the things he's credited with or was taken out of context. the 17 somewhat years spent in area's of asia as a carpenter (or whatever else he did)prepared him to battle wits in a cerebral way. over time, the church screwed up everything jesus might have been able to represent. i believe he spoke about our world in metaphysical terms that confused people

I like that.  :grin:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1149445 - 12/17/02 02:19 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

It is ridiculous to think that one would be OK to go ahead and violate OT law.

Is it then ridiculous to discard all of the words of Jesus? Should we toss out the Bible as a source of spiritual wisdom as we cannot be sure which lines were actually said or even which ones were merely parable and which ones were inviolate spiritual law?

Should we all become Swamis and try to find our own way without a historical compass to guide us?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1149666 - 12/17/02 03:45 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Well... i think by thinking about it, you've created a problem within yourself. A desire, a lust, an ego-driven distraction. It's an obstacle for you, but sure, it doesn't really hurt anyone. Going out an doing it though, that's a little different...

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1150440 - 12/17/02 11:52 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

No. One doesn't discard the scriptures because they are not historically accurate. The historicity itself does not possess the truth of the words. The Jewish 'midrash,' or story-telling technique, was intended to convey a spiritual truth, not to report historical facts with scientific or responsible journalistic credibility. I mean, there was no reporter outside a manger at Bethlehem, or Nazareth (there are contradictory accounts), taking notes on Persion magi (magicians) visiting the unwed Miriam, and Yosef and baby Y'shua. The mind set of 1st or 2nd century writers in the middle east was quite unlike the mindset we are accustomed to having, growing up in a quantifiable world.

Many of the OT laws, and 613 commandments, were based on a theocratic government, and absurdly harsh in their attempt to separate from the heathen nations. Embedded within much of this violence, nevertheless, are enlightened ethics and morals. Part of the absurdity was to enforce the practice of otherwise compassionate morals, with threats of punishment and even death. The Law was a [primitive] "chastening" according to Paul, but through the introduction of Christ (not necessarily to be interpreted as a man, but as Paul's Damascus Road experience of Light, brighter than the sun, Who spoke to him) in the human experience, that allows humans to transcend the Law. One can be motivated from within, through Christ, which can indwell the core of the human psyche, and govern all of one's life by Compassion.

The Logos, or trans-historical Christ, however, is connected to the historical person of Jesus, even though we, like Paul himself, do not know the 'Man.' We can know His Presence, His Living Present Reality which transcends space-time, so the historical nature of Jesus is important to recognize as it determines the possibility of the Divine interpenetrating the human realm. Experientially, Christ is known in a trans-empiracle way. The faculty of faith opens the door to the experience. Faith requires a laying down [sacrifice] of one's intellect [sacrificium intellectus] which for many of us constitutes ego-death, inasmuch as we are identified with our intellects and rational minds. It is, however, worth the sacrifice, because we get it back - and then some - along with even more valuable attributes of awareness.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1150720 - 12/18/02 04:12 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

One doesn't discard the scriptures because they are not historically accurate.

But if we don't take them literally "because they are not historically accurate", then we are forced to make up our own interpretations about the way things REALLY are.  And if we're making up our own shit, then who cares what Jesus had to say???  It's irrelevant because it's inaccurate!  :tongue:   


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1151162 - 12/18/02 07:34 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

And if we're making up our own shit, then who cares what Jesus had to say???

Hence the thousand flavors of Christianity, each proclaiming in a loud voice that their interpretation is the correct one and that the others are, at the very least mistaken and at most, evil!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (12/18/02 07:41 AM)

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1151175 - 12/18/02 07:40 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Haha!  You have a way with words Swami!  :laugh: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1151189 - 12/18/02 07:44 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

*bows humbly*

Get in on the ground floor. You can be one one of my primary priests when I open the doors to the Swami Holy Insight Temple. Please P.M. me for details on where to send your generous donation.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1151659 - 12/18/02 10:19 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Jesus is not merely a teacher for Christians, and Christ is still accessable, via the Holy Spirit (which is another 'activity' of God). So one does not have to rely on one's own understanding exclusively, but by grace - the action of the Holy Spirit on our consciousness - our understanding becomes Illuminated or Enlightened. Of course, people will bicker when it comes to making their opinions into doctrine, but personal revelations are not turned into outer politics. Those who go to war over religious doctrine seem to be self-interested people with strictly political-power agendas.

I, for one, am not a preacher because only fixed doctrine can be preached, not the Present Experience of the Living Christ. To be aware of this requires focus, and is a lot like a peak of a trip where it's all happening so fast you can't put anything into words so you don't try to speak. Or again, it's like my kaleidoscope screen saver. A really pretty pattern wells up and you just want to freeze-frame it, or say 'Hey! did you see that?,' and the response is "See what?," 'and of course it is impossible to describe what you just saw for a few seconds, and it's gone forever. Of course, the basic kaleidoscope is still there, and there is a 'Center' and a periphery, and a movement from inner to outer; so there is novelty but there is also ever-changing uniqueness. So, all I can do in life is name Jesus, and in so doing, simply refer to the personality that is described in Scriptures, and decide that Jesus is THE WAY to be in life, and work hard at cultivating that personality in me like a mustard tree that grows from the tiny seed of His Name.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1152039 - 12/18/02 12:27 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Get in on the ground floor. You can be one one of my primary priests when I open the doors to the Swami Holy Insight Temple. Please P.M. me for details on where to send your generous donation.

How much would I have to donate before I can enter the magnificent S.H.I.T.?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1152206 - 12/18/02 01:32 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

He he! Only $20,000 to be part of the inner circle which is an inexpensive investment for the potential return. Would you like a Prospectus?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1152817 - 12/18/02 05:53 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Twenty grand is too steep for me. :shocked:

I'm forming my own damn house of spirituality.  Yeah!
I'll call it Sclorch's Hegemonic Intuition Tower and it will be waaaaay taller than your shitty temple. Hahahahahahahahahaha[/evil laugh] 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1152845 - 12/18/02 06:05 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Naw man, join mine- the Spiritual Hallucinegenic Injesting Transmorpheous. Only $19.95 to join and $19.95 a month!

Act now and recieve your very own Tome of Truth!  :laugh:

Send check or money order to:

P.O. Box 11478
Schwusensen, Switzerland 714
Hosusezen Gosen 32



BELIEVE OR DIE!!!  :mad:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (12/18/02 06:09 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Murex]
    #1152912 - 12/18/02 06:30 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Do you accept PayPal?

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: ]
    #1152972 - 12/18/02 06:53 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

No.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Murex]
    #1153264 - 12/18/02 10:18 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

you can all join my shit(no dots) for free

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: raytrace]
    #1153270 - 12/18/02 10:30 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

WARNING: TOTAL TANGENT

When I served in the USN as a radar tech, we referred to the main transmitting element, the travelling wave amplifier tube as a T.W.A.T. Later we were ordered to call it simply a TWT (Tee Double U Tee) to be more politically correct. True story.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: ]
    #1153346 - 12/19/02 12:09 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

welllll, the gnostic redeemer ministries (gn.r.m.), ( the outreach/evangelism arm of the gnostic redeemer zen lutheran church n.a.) will not be more than a pipe dream until after june '04...
but really, dontcha think this talk of forming your own misguided cult should be the topic for another thread?
~


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1153444 - 12/19/02 01:49 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

"Present Experience of the Living Christ"

How can you be certain that such an experience is not a mere fabrication of your subconcious? Many others have spiritual experiences which contradict your beliefs, and they claim that they are just as, if not more powerful than yours.

Mustard tree?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1153491 - 12/19/02 02:23 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

So you're in the HAARP project too, i knew it !

"MAIA Ordinary Religion Of Nothing is avaiable for free. "I don't give a fuck" is our word of command. Press blue button for next religion"

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1153759 - 12/19/02 04:22 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

now, as to the original post topic...
"as a man thinketh..."
well... my friend jeff (only kid in his h.s. to wear a yarmulke... heh, the principal told him to take off the beanie hat & he refused...) was reflecting on the christian premise that the thought is equal to the deed... said that jewish commentators stated that a man can not be held responsible for thoughts... after all, they just pop up, right?
now my dad said something about the difference between a passing thought ("ooohwhee, what a cutie" or whatever...) and letting the thought go, vs. spending the next however long thinking about what you'd like to do with her, peeling off her clothes with your eyes, and just generally cultivating the thought for as long as it keeps you up (so to speak)...
~
maybe a little buddhist "non-attachement" might be indicated here... the thought arises, the thought passes... the wheel turns...
~
~


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

Edited by gnrm23 (12/19/02 06:03 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Phluck]
    #1153863 - 12/19/02 04:54 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

That is a very good question.

I, for one, could never have faith in something I have no evidence for.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Phluck]
    #1154799 - 12/19/02 09:35 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I think that you have created a 'mental knot' here by equating "spiritual experiences" with "beliefs." Spiritual experiences, like any other type of experiences are pure datum - pure perception - either sensory or intuitive in nature. Experiences cannot be contradicted, they just are. Experience is what fills one's awareness.

Beliefs, on the other hand can be contradicted. It may actually be only apparent contradictions based on formulation. Hindus say that a 'self' reincarnates. Buddhists say there is no self that reincarnates, rather, rebirth occurs when enough dissolved elements (samskaras) constellate and form another human entity. Sometimes there is a memory trace left, and lo - a tulku is
born. Both agree on a cessation of the process, and that Nirvana or Mahasamadhi is an eternal condition.

I have been blessed with a number of experiences that may correspond to those spoken of in Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist religions. The doctrines helped create the experiences and the experiences were best described by specific religious doctrines. I am a Jewish Christian at bottom, and it is the empirical results of my prayer life, time and time again, that supports my continued faith in God. Not only specific results to petitionary prayers, but interior changes to my personality that have effects on other people, wild animals and perhaps other aspects of the world.

I am not in competition with others, nor am I interested in power. I prefer to 'move' people in their interiors, not move, control, manipulate people in the outer world. My Master is Christ, and I aspire to become 'transfused' by His blood, which is a colorful way of saying that I want His Spirit to run through me as well. This, 'for the sake of all sentient beings,' as the Buddhist Bodhisattvas put it, as well as for my own salvation and transcendence. As Paul put it, "He [Christ] must increase, I must decrease." Lots of people here talk about ego-death, but they don't much talk about what is to take the place of one's dead ego. Well, this is the Christian formula.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1155674 - 12/19/02 03:44 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I think I misjudged you before Markos. I kinda get what your saying here.

I don't choose to recognize the man or spirit "christ" as what takes the place of the ego after ego death. But to each his own

Maybe it's just a case of a Rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

I remember another thread where you said you didn't trust me "in word or deed" because I have "no morals" based in a spiritual nature.

Here is a better explanation the statement I made in that post. I beleive that we are all one and that we love each other/ourselves. However conflict is required for growth and learning. That is why hate will always be just as much a part of "physical reality" as love is. Why would the source (god, the universe, whatever) punish someone (his/her/whatever self). This life is just the process of the universe ( source, god) learning and growing. That is why I think regardless of what we do here, we (not necissarily our egos, but are essence/s) will all eventually come back together in the same place in the end (the end of this learning reality/ birth of the next learning reality). This is a continual cycle but throught it we are all one.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1155710 - 12/19/02 04:00 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

and it is the empirical results of my prayer life, time and time again, that supports my continued faith in God.

I have never seen empirical results from petitioning prayer, even by people of apparently strong faith.

As I have stated before, here is what usually happens if the petitioner:

A. Gets what he wants. "Thanks be to God for answering my prayer."

B. Doesn't get what he wants. "My faith wasn't strong enough." or "God has other plans for me."

I would seriously like you to, as best you can, lay out a specific methodology and conditions for effective prayer, and an experiemnt that we can all participate in here on the shroomery.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1156029 - 12/19/02 06:03 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Wow, I don't have time for a long dialogue with you on this but I disagree with some of your presuppositions here. In fact, my tenets run completely contrary.

Beliefs, on the other hand can be contradicted. It may actually be only apparent contradictions based on formulation.

There are not apparent contradictions according to 'beliefs' but actual contradictions as well as contraries. The 'belief' that 'beliefs' cannot contradict each other is a false 'belief'.

I have been blessed with a number of experiences that may correspond to those spoken of in Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist religions. The doctrines helped create the experiences and the experiences were best described by specific religious doctrines.

I am not sure that the doctrines 'created' the experiences as I am that they helped you interpret the experiences from within their paradigm.

"....the empirical results of my prayer life, time and time again, that supports my continued faith in God."

For me as well. I kept a prayer 'journal' to keep track of answered prayers, unanswered prayers, etc. But that has little to do with my belief in a Supreme Being. It could be entirely possible that other forces were at work, the mind, for instance.

Sorry to disagree. I think you are a great contributor to this forum and it would be a poorer place without you.

Peace,

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1156687 - 12/19/02 11:49 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

You'll have to PM me for the finest example of a specific 'request' being answered. This is a personal experience of a sacred variety, and I will not put it out there in an impersonal way.

In a less serious vein, I'd add that sometimes life is like a whole lot of green lights on an otherwise annoyingly stop-and-go drive. I cannot prove to another empirically, the results of say, intecessory prayer for someone undergoing major surgery, and things don't look too good. One would have to be the 'pray-er,' and begin to develop a strange sense that 'everything will be alright.' This is what is called 'assurance' in theological circles, and has a particularly strange feeling of certitude and doubtlessness (or fearlessness) about it. It is a subtle thing that becomes less subtle and more recognizable with each event. It is similar to the 'ring-like-a-bell-in-the-head' telepathy I used to get on acid. At first I thought that I heard someone say something, but later, I recognized that the sound of their voice 'occurred' in my head, but without the usual sensation (that we never notice otherwise) in our ears.

I believe that prayer of petition may be an 'acausal' reality. I do not bend God's Will, but perhaps my very desire and the subsequent prayer is instilled in the very script of my life. I pray for something that is going to happen anyway, and my desire is for that exact thing that is going to happen anyway. But the desire is connected to who I am, what my interests have been for years, so it seems to be a very personal reponse. Or again, it may be a precognition of what is to occur, with a wish or full desire for that which is to occur. In the latter sense, my will is in exact accordance with God's Will - I am One with God in the sense of being of One Will. This is the 'Not my will, by Thy Will be done,' Oneness that Jesus epitomizes in the Scriptures. Prayer thus becomes a glimpse of 'how it all is' when one lives in the Spirit. This moment is a a taste of the Life of Christ, from a Christian point of view. It would be great to be there full-time, but that is the goal of mysticism - of Union with Ultimate Reality - with God.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1156887 - 12/20/02 02:42 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

You are a very deep person Markos. I know you mean well and I thank you and respect you for that. However, your take on prayer, while perhaps effective for you, gives me no direction or hope of harnessing this mysterious power / tool for making positive change.

Your specific incident would be interesting, but not utilitarian as a guidepost.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1157065 - 12/20/02 04:17 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

your reply to Phluck makes me think a careful reading of any of Ken Wilber's full length, intensive books, like _The Eye of Spirit_, would drastically improve conversation. some of the things you say really take a book to understand.

blessings, cj



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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1157091 - 12/20/02 04:31 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Wasn't Wilber the owner of Mr. Ed, the talking horse?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: Swami]
    #1157320 - 12/20/02 06:12 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

way to go, daddy-o.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Anonymous

Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1157798 - 12/20/02 10:07 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Your last post was beautiful.

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Invisiblei am e goldstein
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1157996 - 12/20/02 11:28 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)



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Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Question on one of J.C.'s teachings... [Re: i am e goldstein]
    #1158397 - 12/20/02 02:55 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

We are all god's children. We all came from god.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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