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OfflineRhizoid
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Meaning of Omnipotency
    #1755009 - 07/28/03 05:58 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I know the subject of omnipotency has been touched before, but I couldn't find any recent thread about it, so I'm starting one.

What are the limits of an omnipotent creator or cause? Is there a meaningful way to define "omnipotency" after we have disregarded all ridiculous definitions, like "it's the power to do anything, including all impossible things"?

Does logical consistency define such a limit, or is logical consistency just a natural consequence of something else that limits omnipotency?


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OfflineMeThoD
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1755208 - 07/28/03 07:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

um.... i dont think theres a man on earth who can answer your question there.... crazy muthafucka... by the way, yes, i am tripping right now


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: MeThoD]
    #1755265 - 07/28/03 08:19 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Have a fun trip MeThoD! :laugh:

The question actually came to me after a trip where I had the vision of reality being created through a series of choices between different possibilities that arise. In that case the possibilities to choose from are limited by what has already been created, because the new creations have to co-exist with that. But then I tried to imagine what possibilities there would be to choose from at the very first choice, before the rest of the universe existed.
 


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1755300 - 07/28/03 08:40 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleTrippeeChik
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1755328 - 07/28/03 08:51 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

the omnipotent could destroy any creation and recreate..so it would be infinite.


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Offlinenemesis
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: TrippeeChik]
    #1755372 - 07/28/03 09:20 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Why is limitlessness ridiculous and how is not meaningful? All creation is the result of the limitless perfection of the Universe in my belief. There is no logical defintion because it is inexplicable. Does an Infinite element have logical consistency for you?

Very interesting topic :smile:
Your question was a bit hard to comprehend :P


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: nemesis]
    #1755513 - 07/28/03 10:16 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It becomes ridiculous when people start to claim that God can make a rock that is so heavy that he can't lift it, based on the argument that this must be possible because otherwise he wouldn't really be omnipotent. I don't buy that, it's just silly.

Sorry if the question was hard to comprehend, but I wanted to avoid definitions that give rise to the usual paradoxes. And as I said it came from a thought I had during a trip. :smile:
 


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1755748 - 07/28/03 12:31 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It becomes ridiculous when people start to claim that God can make a rock that is so heavy that he can't lift it

This is a failing of our view of God. We have distilled God down so that God exists in our image. As such, we place our own limitations upon our view of God creating a false paradox.



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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Seuss]
    #1755895 - 07/28/03 01:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

omnipotence defies logic.

like:
" If god is all powerfull, could he create a rock that was so heavy he couldn't lift it?"


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Seuss]
    #1755900 - 07/28/03 01:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

TrippeeChik: You have a good point there. No creation has to be "final", because it can always be destroyed and recreated. But that still means that any particular creation must meet som minimal consistency requirements, doesn't it?

Seuss: That false paradox is what I'd like to transcend, by seeing if it's possible to refine the concept of omnipotency, which is after all a human concept. By transcend I mean I want to reach a new level of understanding, not the end of all future paradoxes. Just the ones we are aware of here and now. :wink:
 


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InvisibleTrippeeChik
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1758367 - 07/29/03 03:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

'But that still means that any particular creation must meet som minimal consistency requirements, doesn't it?'

im not sure if i know what you mean... - if the omnipotent has omnipotency, there should be no limits set on its creative powers.



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1758378 - 07/29/03 03:09 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Omnipotency is boundless


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: TrippeeChik]
    #1758647 - 07/29/03 05:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

im not sure if i know what you mean... - if the omnipotent has omnipotency, there should be no limits set on its creative powers.




What I mean is that a creation whose correct description constitutes a logical contradiction is obviously an impossible creation. For example, one can imagine a universe in which this post ends with the letter "X" and another one just like it except for the fact that it doesn't end with the letter "X". But a universe where both of these descriptions are true is impossible, since the descriptions are mutually exclusive. Any creator has to make a choice between them, even if he is omnipotent. He can create both, of course, either one after the other or as parallel alternatives, but they have to be separate.

What I'm trying to understand is if logical consistency is a fundamental part of the creation process, or if it might be a consequence of something even more fundamental, like for example the idea that creation always is performed through choices between alternatives, and that the available alternatives at any one point are limited by the previous choices in some way.

X


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InvisibleTrippeeChik
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1758706 - 07/29/03 06:40 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

its been said by others in this thread already but i think the capabilities of the omnipotent are far beyond what a human mind could imagine and would be extremely illogical to human understanding. and it shows in our limited definition of omnipotent. until we are on that level, we could never truly understand.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: TrippeeChik]
    #1758971 - 07/29/03 08:59 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that the capabilities of the omnipotent would be far beyond what a human can imagine, but that doesn't make it any less silly to say that those capabilities must include the power to do things that are defined by nonsense statements, like for example the famous "to create a rock that is too heavy for an omnipotent being to lift".

Let me make a comparison with set theory: in the naive version of set theory that was developed in the late 1800's, any set could be defined through statements like "the set of all x for which formula(x) is true", where formula(x) is any logic statement containing x. The formula is just a description that an object has to fit in order to be a set member.

It was assumed that all such descriptions would correspond to some meaningful definition of a set. But in 1901 Bertrand Russell found the paradox that destroyed this illusion. His formula was: "x is not a member of the set x". This leads to a contradiction, so obviously you can't define sets by claiming that any arbitrary description that looks like a definition of a set, is in a fact a set.

I'd like to see this insight transferred to the concept of omnipotency. I don't think it's reasonable to say: "An omnipotent being can do S" where S is any description of an action in terms of human concepts, however contradictory, paradoxical, and ridiculous that description is.


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Offlinenemesis
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1761004 - 07/29/03 10:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I see what your saying.
Any creation of an omnipotent power is not a creation where omnipotence is present because it is created of omnipotence not within omnipotent realms. If that makes sense  :grin:

Think about it this way, if the omnipotence creates something the omnipotent can't do he is not omnipotent.

Lets use this famous paradox, "to create a rock that is too heavy for an omnipotent being to lift." .. that is paradoxical only by our perceptions that it can create something that it can't do. If you are looking for an action in terms of human concepts that aren't contradictory, paradoxical or "ridiculous" then there is no such thing as omnipotency. It's not human, it's not concievable. The conception that it has to be logical is flawed because logic is flawed. Perfection for anything human is not possible because Perfection is to flaw logic, so to say we are held down by logic is reasonable :wink:
Thats logic  :thumbup: 


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: nemesis]
    #1761033 - 07/29/03 10:52 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

*N.F.T* (nice fuggin' thread)

It's good to see some true philosophy up in here.  (Even though answering your question doesn't really accomplish anything :wink:)

P.S. - how does a thread get those 5 shrooms on the thread list? 


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: nemesis]
    #1761874 - 07/30/03 04:50 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If you are looking for an action in terms of human concepts that aren't contradictory, paradoxical or "ridiculous" then there is no such thing as omnipotency. It's not human, it's not concievable.




My view is that "omnipotent" is just as much a human concept as any other concept. "The power to do anything" depends on what we mean by "anything", which is also a human concept and closely related to the human concept "infinity".

When talking about potential realities, is it meaningful to have "anything" in this context include descriptions that are contradictions and phrases with no meaning? I guess this is the point I've been chasing.

And the question of whether an omnipotent being can transcend logic depends on what we mean by transcending logic. If logic is without limits, then transcending logic may be a meaningless concept. If not, then an omnipotent must be able to transcend logic or he wouldn't be omnipotent. :smile:

nubious: there is a "Submit rating" button for threads at the bottom of the page.
   


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OfflineJuR
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1762020 - 07/30/03 07:32 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I'll distil this paradox

Could God(omnipotent)create a rock that he couldn't lift?
Could God undo his own creations?
Could God stop being God(omnipotent)?

So omnipotent is the power to do everything even to stop being omnipotent. But if you really are omnipotent you could bed these stupdi laws of causality and such to sooth your every need.

the shitty thing is that you'll end up with the same paradox
Could God bend all laws of causality the same laws that made him come to power ?. I mean that is if this being rose trough power wich would be logical because you can't become omnipotent all of a sudden.
And let's say he could bend those laws then he couldn't unbend them because he bended the laws of causality.



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InvisibleTrippeeChik
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Re: Meaning of Omnipotency [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1762036 - 07/30/03 08:08 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

good thots. but still wouldnt human derived theories and concepts from the view of the omnipotent be nonapplicable to the omnipotent? like in a whole new sorta twisted dimension, in our view. and so cannot be correlated to human logic. i like the way nemesis put it.

'When talking about potential realities, is it meaningful to have "anything" in this context include descriptions that are contradictions and phrases with no meaning? I guess this is the point I've been chasing.'

[edit]
'anything' would be our limited use of a word in the definition but it still fits to the general imagination of omnipotency. to human logic, i dont think it can get anymore meaningful than that unless we can step into omnipotent shoes and come up with a more fitting definition. (:


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Edited by TrippeeChik (07/30/03 08:31 AM)


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