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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1537253 - 05/10/03 05:32 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

sclorch - I totally agree. It's when humans dictate to humans the way of God ("belive XYZ or burn in helll") that I begin to have a problem not with religion, and not with christIANITY, but with christIANS.


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Offline3MJ3
i&I
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 102
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537342 - 05/10/03 06:26 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

In response to Johnny Respect on his understanding of Judaism:

You have to be kidding me.......Judaism, you don't have to believe in God. No you are right......you HAVE to believe in YAHWEH, the God of Israel. Hell, Judaism is a hell of a lot more rigid about their relationship with their God than Christians are. Just look at the entire old testament. What about the covenant formed between God and his 'chosen people'? : The nation of Israel. Ha..doesn't have to believe in God LOL


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537429 - 05/10/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

3MJ3- Our local rabbi told me that in Judaism, it's your acts rather than your beliefs that get you to heaven. Whist Christians are out converting anything that moves, Jews, if you ask to convert, tell you it's not necessary, they make you as kthree times, you don't HAVE to be a Jew to go to heaven, you don't HAVE to belive in God to go to heaven. Maybe you can use some more "lol"s and deride her rabinical knowledge? She is only a PhD in jewish studies...where'd your degree come from?
:-)


jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Offline3MJ3
i&I
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 102
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537435 - 05/10/03 07:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

That was not the question at hand my refuting friend.....

You said in your understanding of judaism you don't nessecarily have to believe in God. This was quoted directly from one of your posts. I was just pointing to the facts that if you are jewish and practice judaism, that comes with the pre-requisite that you believe in the God of Israel. Nothing more.

i&I


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537465 - 05/10/03 07:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

That is correct - if you wanna be Jewish, you'd better believe what they tell you dammit!


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1538194 - 05/11/03 01:12 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Your lady Rabbi, and I use the title Rabbi loosely here, despite a doctoral degree from wherever (could be a mail order doctorate from some California, non-accredited virtual school, not a reputable Yeshiva), is entitled to believe and say anything she wants, but it is a Covenant with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that makes one a Jew in the spiritual meaning of the word. Atheist Jew is an oxymoron, while those who believe that one can be of the Jewish FAITH, without having any FAITH, are simply morons.

As for Heaven in Judaism, this is the most concealed issue of the religion. If one isn't an observant Orthodox Jew, with a certain knowledge of the Zohar and Kabbala (both esoteric aspects of the religion), then one is not going to hear anything about Heaven. In my own Reformed Jewish family, the word Heaven was reserved for a profoundly retarded uncle of mine who was institutionalized for most of his life, when he inquired about the whereabouts of his deceased parents. This may well be representative of a majority of secular American 'Jews.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1539329 - 05/11/03 05:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Markos- My intent was to state that Jews do not hold the belief that heaven is accessable only through their path, or through belief in god in general. If someone is a theist, no matter what religon, they they do believe in God. However, a Christian would tell an a-theist(non believer in any god, lets go with that def) that they are going to burn in hell. A jew would say "Your actions dictate where you go"

thats all I was saying :-) Also, Rabbi Garfunkle is a fully fledged Rabbi, and she obtained her degrees in Israel.

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineBrugman
antisobrietarian
Male

Registered: 05/17/01
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1539390 - 05/11/03 06:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I don't ever post here but I'd like to point out that humans think too much.
I want to be a bird..


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: Brugman]
    #1539402 - 05/11/03 06:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Ignorance is bliss.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1541045 - 05/12/03 08:00 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You think in terms of gross stereotypes man. Grossly inaccurate, uncritical generalizations.

Whereas good works are certainly the only way that one can manifest ethics and morals in the world, morality based on utilitarian principles (like fictional Vulcan ethics: 'The good of the many, over the good of the few, or the one,' in Gene Rodenberry creations) are not salvific in Judaism. The original Abrahamic faith, was a story of a man's faith response (an action) to sacrifice the one thing he held most valuable in life - his son Isaac. Today, we would think him quite mad, and dangerous, but the story is about a faith response to GOD. It is the basis of Judaic faith, as well as Islamic faith, not to mention the whole Christian 'by faith alone' theology, and it clearly contradicts ANY notion of good works. The sacrifice of one's son just doesn't fit the bill when it comes to human morals, but it does describe the righteousness of trusting in GOD. Soren Kierkegaard made much of this in his writings.

Now you may not understand the appelation 'Jewish Christian,' and consider it to be oxymoronic, but the original Jewish believers in The Way were all Jews, and those who continued to practice circumcision and other Jewish rituals were called Ebionites, historically. I come from a Jewish upbringing, but came to accept Christ some 27 years ago. I understand faith in the Abrahamic sense as a Jewish Christian, and I have never presumed to threaten anyone with Hell, since Judgement is a metaphysical reality determined by someone's spiritual status in/with GOD, not man. Intellectual concepts held in mind are not salvific in themselves. Every yokel who merely 'thinks' he's 'saved,' isn't. That salvation manifests itself both interiorly and exteriorly in the ethics of Compassionate action.
Otherwise, it's just bulls**t.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/12/03 11:18 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: A question about God... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1541140 - 05/12/03 10:10 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yup, says this yokel. :wink:

Well said. :smile:

Cheers,


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Offline3MJ3
i&I
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 102
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: ]
    #1541279 - 05/12/03 11:21 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Vulcan Ethics?

I'll help you out.....it was Bentham who developed 'act utilitarianism' which sought to seek the end result with the best outcome for the greatest number of people.

Please for my sake...do not equate Startrek with Great men :wink:

Other than that...I have a similairly devoloped faith to yours...but instead of being brought up in the Judaic doctrine and accepting Christian theology, I was brought up Catholic, and came to accept the Judaic doctrine even more.

i&I


Edited by 3MJ3 (05/12/03 11:23 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
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Re: A question about God... [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1543172 - 05/12/03 11:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the intention, but, whether Jeremy Bentham, or J.S. Mill, or whomever (I took an entire course on utilitarianism - hated it), I used Vulcan ethics to give a fictional flavor, and hence a less-than-ultimately-real sense to ethics that do not derive from a Transcendendental Source. At least, that was my intention, but I appreciate your thoughtful addition.

As I heard in seminary: 'The Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament, the New Testament is concealed in the Old Testament.' I've always rather liked that.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: A question about God... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1544668 - 05/13/03 11:33 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think God is a trickster, a joker, and if I ever meet him am going to have some serious word with him!
He/she/it throes me into this life, with out any explanation of what I have to do or not do, to make things even worse, I have all the other monkeys telling me the way to him but no one knows crap for sure.
I ask him for advice she doesn?t not answer :frown:.
I think it enjoys all of this, finds it amusing, how I go crazy for a way.
Well what can I do or say, God bless you!
 


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: LOBO]
    #1544830 - 05/13/03 12:49 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

pfff God isn't a trickster....... Have you considered that he's not real?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/13/03 01:13 PM)


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OfflineRuNE
bomberman

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Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,331
Loc: tartarus
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1544852 - 05/13/03 01:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Johnny: Back when i was an 'athiest', i tried to do what you've been trying to do, for about 3 years straight. (mechanic school, 2hrs per day). You're wasting your breath, especialy if the person has been programed for quite a while now.
But truthfully, i think both of you need to learn something.

Find a place, find some time, and go find 1/2oz of shrooms. Split it with your cousin. Wake up the next day, and THEN, you will be ready for a discussion.


Because quite honestly, the winners of this debate are Brugman and Murex.

=]



--------------------
~Happy sailing~


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Offline3MJ3
i&I
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 102
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: A question about God... [Re: RuNE]
    #1544886 - 05/13/03 01:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

There are no winners of this debate ultimately.....

It is only ignorant people who think they can use LOGIC to argue something that is beyond logic, that is beyond reason.

Believing that their is a greater creator is not logical, not reasonble, .....it is based on spirituality, not proof.....understand?

Markos: I like that "the old testament is found in the new, vice versa" :smile: because it is truth.


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