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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 5
    #28911570 -

Bumping a great thread with some new data.

I am convinced that too many burst grain and pucks in the bottom of jars are due to too much water.
Here is my reasoning:
It is not from water contacting the jar. When PCing two rows of pint jars with the bottom ones half submerged and the top completely out of water, I have sometimes had the burst grain pucks on the top row and not the bottom and vice versa. Since I started weighing my grains and water I have not had a single puck.
It is not from cooking too long. I was running pints for 2 or 2.5 hours in my IP, but while chasing down a modified lid filter issue, began to try longer runs to see what would happen. I just ran these 8 jars, half for 3 hours and half for 6 hours.

Can you tell them apart? I can't in person if I hadn't marked them. No additional burst grains even. (Actually, the wheat is a little darker on the 6 hour once you know where to look.)

In fact, I ran the 6 hour jars in two 3 hour cycles measuring the weight of each jar after being filled with the exact same amount of each grain and water before the cycle, after three hours, and after 6 hours. The results were surprising to me because I thought they might lose water if over cooked. However, the weights on some went down a bit and on other went up a bit.
          pre PC    3 hr        6 hr
Jar 1    525        524        523
Jar 2    523        517        521
Jar 3    526        526        529
Jar 4    502        497        496
avg      519        516        517.25

What does all of this mean? I don't know. I am going to split some clean agar plates between a pair of 3 & 6 hour jars for each to see if there is a significant difference in colonization speed. I am not recommending wasting this much power for every run, but I wanted to know if you can ruin grain my over sterilizing it. So far, nope, which is good to know.

But the key take away is that if you are getting pucks of mush in your jars or way too many burst grain, try reducing the amount of water. I suspect that the water content of grains may vary some from batch to batch or place to place. As mentioned previously, I weigh everything resetting the scale with the tare function between each measurement to be as accurate as possible. I never worry about hydration or burst grain any longer.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #28911611 -

Have you known anyone to have used a grain moisture tester and compared results?

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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #28911844 -

Thank you for sharing this Rev! I enjoy your thought process, attention to data and the end results you produce.

I do agree the PC water touching the jar is pretty irrelevant so long as it is not really high up the jar. I also agree that cooking too long is not an issue unless it was extreme. It is interesting that 6 hours really didn't change the appearance much, i would've guessed wrong. I usually do 1.5 hours in PC but have only gone as long as 2.5 hours while cooking jars of grains along with bags of bulk.

It certainly could be too much water causing the burst grains. How much less water are you using? I need to add some weight measurements, along with the volumes for grains in the OP. Weight is accurate and repeatable, volume is faster and easier. I also think that there could be other variables involved. One of the biggest variables is choice of grain(s). Your grain mix takes one of the best and one of the worst grains for low-prep and combines them with great results. Straight wheat in a jar has so far been difficult to shake. Milo is not much better. I think with pucks, for certain grains, they are created by cooking the grains in super starch saturated water. Again, with milo and wheat, this especially seems to be the case. When cooled, the starch becomes almost a glue sticking to the grains and the jar. I also think the expansion of the grains as they hydrate helps to make pucks in all the grains, some are just so much easier to break and shake.

I wonder if with grain mixes, the different starches from the different grains block each other from forming long chains?


--------------------
Low Prep the World! (agar plates)
Low Prep the World! (grain prep)
Trashcan FC
Acidulated extraction gummies and drops
Drying agar and grains using parchment paper
:leaf:Cleaning your bubble hash bags


Edited by YoshiTrainer (08/15/24 02:16 AM)

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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 1
    #28912256 -

Interesting. To be fair, I have only run white millet and white millet combined with hard red wheat using your guide. So I should take a few runs at wheat alone to see if the pucks can be conquered with reduced water alone.

Here is what I am doing for my pint jars right now. Double everything for quarts and liter jars.
55g white millet
70g hard red wheat
92g water

I zero the scale between each measurement so the differences in jar weights do not cause errors. My pints can vary as much as 26 grams in weight. I add the grains first then put a germination screen on the jar and zero it on the scale. Rinse and shake out excess water 5 times then place the jar back on the scale and add enough water to read 92 grams. This leads to very clean grain jars for me. Then I replace the germination screen with the modified lid and put the jar in the PC.

I agree that the grains do vary enough that this might not be the exact measurements for everyone. My desert white millet may contain a different amount of moisture than a different brand in the mid west. And hard red wheat may be different than spring white or whatever. But every time that I have gotten a puck at the bottom I could trace it back to excess water. I did find some old pictures of wheat pucks from before I started doing your low prep, but again, they were from the grains that were insufficiently dried after hydration, so it still comes back to too much water.

I imagine that if the grain has a lot of chaff it makes it worse, but the rinse should take care of that if there are not a lot of burst grains. Weighing does take a little extra time and I could probably do volume for the grains, but getting the water right with the rinse really does rely on weighing the jar before the rinse and then topping it up to the right total water content.

I am going to try to get the wheat to work on its own next and play with the water ratios to see if my theory holds up. My prediction is that I can get a puck by adding too much water in the same cycle as jars with no pucks with the right or too little water.

On the too little water concern: I was worried about under hydration which would potentially lead to incomplete sterilization. That is part of why I wanted to see what happened with a stupidly long PC cycle. But the results where the amount of weight from water actually increased in some jars has me thinking. Does the "dry" steam penetration actually bring enough water to balance the grains to the proper hydration? So I just thought of an additional parameter for the upcoming tests. I will be sure to record the weight of all of the jars before the PC cycle. If the jars with significantly insufficient water gain a significant amount of weight in the PC cycle it would have to mean that water from the steam penetrating the jars and grains is being retained in the grains. And that would mean that under filling them would be safer than overfilling them for producing quality grain. Of course, it would require longer PC cycle times, so to be most efficient, it would be best to be as close to the correct amount or water without going over. Like the "Price Is Right". lol.

Okay, I am getting way ahead of myself. Lets see how the next experiments go before getting too excited. Not that anyone but my inner nerd was set to throw a party. I need to change up my grains for some other experiments and to make gluten free gummies, which is another reason that I have taken a renewed interest in no-prep. Anyway, I have taken enough space in your thread on speculation. Back to my day job for now.

P.S. @Stuntbum: I didn't know that there was such a thing as a grain moisture tester until your post, so thanks for the knowledge. I will have to investigate further. I see the prices ranges from $40 to over $1,000 so that will take some research.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #28912570 -

The ratios in the OP for wheat and sorghum seem to work pretty well. It is possible to break and shake them both in jars, it is just a major pain in the butt and dealing with multiple jars is tedious! If you run wheat, sorghum, WBR or pearled barley in spawn bags, they are easy peasy to break up. If you can get wheat to break up like oats or rye in jars, you'd be my new hero and my inner nerd would be ready to party too!

I think extra chaff is bad so rinsing like you're doing should definitely help. Full disclosure, unless it is the bottom of the bag or the grains are particularly nasty, I don't rinse anymore. I scoop the grains (by volume) into their jars and in a separate jar measure the water weight and dump it in with the grains.

It would be interesting if during the PC cycle, grains w/out enough available water picked up moisture from the steam during the PC cycle. I think it may cause small variations in water weight during venting, pressure valve releasing and general steaming as the grains cool but I imagine it is minimal. It seems like your 3 and 6 hour jars show this. I would've guessed there may have been more change in the 6 hour jars, especially with two venting and cooldown cycles. I wonder if you ran a jar with no filter in the lid or maybe no lid at all if you'd notice more variation in the water weight of the jars?


--------------------
Low Prep the World! (agar plates)
Low Prep the World! (grain prep)
Trashcan FC
Acidulated extraction gummies and drops
Drying agar and grains using parchment paper
:leaf:Cleaning your bubble hash bags


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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
    #28913006 -

Have you found the sweet spot for acrons yet?


--------------------
The better guide to grow mushrooms.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Beware the power of one.  The power of two. The power of many.

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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: vicepope]
    #28913466 -

Sorry Vicepope, I've done 0 research into using acorns and haven't been to Acorn Hills. 😀


--------------------
Low Prep the World! (agar plates)
Low Prep the World! (grain prep)
Trashcan FC
Acidulated extraction gummies and drops
Drying agar and grains using parchment paper
:leaf:Cleaning your bubble hash bags


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 1
    #28914210 -

No worries I'll figure it over the next two weeks for fresh and aged.


--------------------
The better guide to grow mushrooms.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Beware the power of one.  The power of two. The power of many.

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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: vicepope]
    #28914390 -

Good luck!


--------------------
Low Prep the World! (agar plates)
Low Prep the World! (grain prep)
Trashcan FC
Acidulated extraction gummies and drops
Drying agar and grains using parchment paper
:leaf:Cleaning your bubble hash bags


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
    #28917749 -

YoshiTrainer said:
The ratios in the OP for wheat and sorghum seem to work pretty well. ...



What ratio are do you use for sorghum? I don't see it in the OP. I am about to go shopping for some grains to test and I want to be sure to try out sorghum. If that one works out, it could be the best option for my process if I can find it in bulk. But all I need for testing is kitchen quantities for today.

YoshiTrainer said:
It would be interesting if during the PC cycle, grains w/out enough available water picked up moisture from the steam during the PC cycle. I think it may cause small variations in water weight during venting, pressure valve releasing and general steaming as the grains cool but I imagine it is minimal. It seems like your 3 and 6 hour jars show this. I would've guessed there may have been more change in the 6 hour jars, especially with two venting and cooldown cycles. I wonder if you ran a jar with no filter in the lid or maybe no lid at all if you'd notice more variation in the water weight of the jars?


I have some jars of wheat in the PC now labeled with different amounts of water in each. I wondered about the venting and cool downs as well. This time I am running 4 hours which is the max for my IP on the sterilize setting. Not how I plan to run them normally, just what I am doing for this test of different amounts of water.

I did all modified filtered lids this time to minimize other variables, but I may try some open on another round to see. It would be good for comparison, but not in practical application, of course.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: ReverendMyc] * 2
    #28917814 -

I thought I had sorghum listed, it is also called milo, I fixed the OP.

Milo/Sorghum  2Tbsp:21ml.      1 1/3C:210ml

Good luck with the wheat experiments!


--------------------
Low Prep the World! (agar plates)
Low Prep the World! (grain prep)
Trashcan FC
Acidulated extraction gummies and drops
Drying agar and grains using parchment paper
:leaf:Cleaning your bubble hash bags


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 1
    #28917855 -

Doh! I think I knew that at some point. When I googled sorghum I learned all about sorghum. When I googled milo just now, it always says "also called sorghum". Well, NOW they tell me. lol


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #28918979 -

Results from the wheat

Ran the IP for 4 hours with 4 pints of wheat with various amounts of water instead of the 120 that should have been correct.
The rinse only was definitely too little water. It did absorb the most in the cycle, but not enough to hydrate the grains fully. As expected, the one with too much water made a big hard to move puck. The one that was closest to correct made a smaller puck that could be broken with a little effort. And the one about half way between the rinse and ideal came out not quite perfect (tested by opening it and eating a few pinches). In fact, I opened and ate some of each and sliced samples from each jar. The slices were inconclusive. All appear to be hydrated all of the way through, but the rinse only is hard and chewy, the middle is a bit pasty and tastes just slightly starchy, the nearly ideal is done and the over watered is soft.


If I were sticking to wheat, I would do test runs from the same LI on each to see how they fair (without opening them and sticking my fingers in to get a munch). But I found some milo/sorghum so that is where I will focus next.

So my theory of less water produces less puck works, but I can't be certain of complete hydration and sterilization from these tests. More to follow on that in a few months, I guess.

Okay, I promise to stop mucking up your thread now. Or for now.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #28919792 -

Great job Rev, no mucking up, I appreciate your posts! You use the scientific method in you posts plus you include data and photos. You are welcome to post on any of my threads!

Great job with the wheat, too. I still have some left so, I'll try to duplicate your success.

It is kind of interesting that the rinse water jar took on so much moisture from the environment.

Thanks for the experiment and good luck with the sorghum!


--------------------
Low Prep the World! (agar plates)
Low Prep the World! (grain prep)
Trashcan FC
Acidulated extraction gummies and drops
Drying agar and grains using parchment paper
:leaf:Cleaning your bubble hash bags


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 2
    #28921051 -

Thanks, Yoshi. I didn't want to presume. Here are the sorghum PC results.


You can see the expansion in the levels of each jar. They get progressively more difficult to shake and break with the increase in water, but none were truly a problem. For this amount of sorghum the ideal amount of water from the OP is 105ml and I only went from 41 ml in rinse only up to 100 ml for the full amount. Based on results I am confident that more water would lead to stickier and stickier pucks.

I am going to inoculate each with an LI of either pan cyan or subtropicalis. One is extremely fast so we would get results faster, the other is slow giving more chance to test contamination resistance. So I am a bit torn. Should do another identical run and do each I suppose.


So far, I like sorghum so now I need to track down a feed supply that carries it locally. They all already give me side eye at my weird questions when I shop for grain. A fat old city slicker IT guy kind of sticks out in the farm supply shops. :crazy2:

I have some brown rice to try, too. But I will be out of town for a while, so that will have to wait.

P.S. Don't try to pop "Popping" sorghum in your wife's silicone microwave popcorn bowl. That burnt smell does NOT go away.
:badidea:


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #28921143 -

Great job Rev, I appreciate the data and photos! I'd vote for you running the pans, to check for hydration and general sterilization. For a true sterilization test, maybe keeping them without inoculation might give the most accurate results? I had some small bags of low-prep grains that lasted 1.5 years before getting tossed, not from contamination.

I had a hard time finding it at a local feed store for some reason. I drive past fields of it growing at times and even had some grow in my backyard. The only feed store that carried it looked like they were running a cock fighting ring in back.


--------------------
Low Prep the World! (agar plates)
Low Prep the World! (grain prep)
Trashcan FC
Acidulated extraction gummies and drops
Drying agar and grains using parchment paper
:leaf:Cleaning your bubble hash bags


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
    #28921703 -

Hey heads up. Fresh acorns blow up in pressure cooker,  the dryer aged ones don't so far . Just thought it should be known it will break your pc if there fresh.


--------------------
The better guide to grow mushrooms.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Beware the power of one.  The power of two. The power of many.

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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: vicepope]
    #28921777 -

Wow, good to know!


--------------------
Low Prep the World! (agar plates)
Low Prep the World! (grain prep)
Trashcan FC
Acidulated extraction gummies and drops
Drying agar and grains using parchment paper
:leaf:Cleaning your bubble hash bags


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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains *DELETED* [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 2
    #28922286 -

Post deleted by Ben Phartin

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: Ben Phartin]
    #28922324 -

Score!


--------------------
Low Prep the World! (agar plates)
Low Prep the World! (grain prep)
Trashcan FC
Acidulated extraction gummies and drops
Drying agar and grains using parchment paper
:leaf:Cleaning your bubble hash bags


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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