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cunningfox
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 1
#28424884 - 08/07/23 08:19 PM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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Thanks, I looked at the jar again and you were right, there's a small crack at the base I must have missed. That must have been how the extra water got in, it's a fine crack at the moment but under pressure it must have been enough. I'll watch for those in future.
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Shromolo
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: cunningfox] 1
#28443763 - 08/23/23 11:53 AM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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Would this be possible with popcorn as well? If no one have tried I'll do a test 😊
-------------------- Understanding is enlightening, always be open to fresh input and diversity! Be a better man respect others as you would like to be respected. "The greatest journey of exploration is to understand our own minds. #Exploration #Understanding #Mind
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: Shromolo]
#28443807 - 08/23/23 12:32 PM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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Hello Shromolo, I have not tried it with popcorn but I'd guess it should be possible? Please give it a try and report back. Maybe use smaller jars to allow you more variation in your prep ratios. If you have success with smaller jars, scale it up from there. Popcorn seems to expand alot when hydrated so I probably wouldn't fill my jars more than 1/4-1/3 full with dry grain.
Good luck!
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blackout


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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: Shromolo] 1
#28443809 - 08/23/23 12:34 PM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Shromolo said: Would this be possible with popcorn as well? If no one have tried I'll do a test 😊
I had them explode on me, popcorn takes a relatively long time to hydrate properly compared to other grains. This method is often called "no soak" if trying to search. In the book, "the mushroom cultivator" from 1984 Stamets used this method, this book is often called TMC if searching. Many people had poor results with exploded grains and a mush.
One method I used to do was heat a while, maybe even get to pressure and turn it off and leave it. After the lid can be removed I would take out jars and shake them, put them back in the warm PC, and then leave to cool overnight during which time they would usually absorb all the water. Then shake again the next day and PC.
I do most grains with equal weight grain, equal weight water. I did popcorn recently bringing to the boil and leaving sit for hours in water, I was only doing 100g. I put them in a jar with water in the fridge for a few days, strained and weighed to confirm they were now 200g, having absorbed 100g water.
Smaller jars are typically recommended to have more water.
In this old thread I discuss recommended water amounts from books and vendors (back when they would give recipes) https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4371401
Edited by blackout (08/23/23 12:48 PM)
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Shromolo
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: blackout]
#28444208 - 08/23/23 05:51 PM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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Maybe just pour boiling water over rhem and close rhe jar. Make 2 - 1 with 75% water by weight and 1 with 85% water by weight. And leave to set over night as #blackout mentioned  So I'll do rhe poure tonight and see what's happenings with the corn. I'll put the bars in PC medicinal waste bags just in case.
Just an idea, would it help to PC the glass laying down?
-------------------- Understanding is enlightening, always be open to fresh input and diversity! Be a better man respect others as you would like to be respected. "The greatest journey of exploration is to understand our own minds. #Exploration #Understanding #Mind
Edited by Shromolo (08/23/23 05:54 PM)
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: Shromolo]
#28444453 - 08/23/23 08:40 PM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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PCing with jars on the side tends to push the water out of the jar rather than into the grains. Obviously I haven't tried it w/popcorn but I'd predict similar results.
Blackout has some very good suggestions!
Maybe you could put jars in PC, bring to boil, let sit overnight then PC in morn?
Sounds like some fun experiments!
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Shromolo
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 1
#28444622 - 08/24/23 01:23 AM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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Okay, so 2 glasses filled 100 grams of corn and 75 grams water. 100 grams of corn and 80 grams water.
I'll let them sit for 12 to 24 hours and see how they look.
-------------------- Understanding is enlightening, always be open to fresh input and diversity! Be a better man respect others as you would like to be respected. "The greatest journey of exploration is to understand our own minds. #Exploration #Understanding #Mind
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blackout


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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: Shromolo]
#28446919 - 08/25/23 11:04 PM (5 months, 6 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Shromolo said: Okay, so 2 glasses filled 100 grams of corn and 75 grams water. 100 grams of corn and 80 grams water.
I'll let them sit for 12 to 24 hours and see how they look.
If everything was perfectly identical then I would expect the 80g water one to have absorbed a tiny bit more, due to the tiny amount of added pressure from the head height of water. (the difference should be miniscule, it is more a theoretical point)
I did wonder about pressurising containers with a significant pressure before to aid the hydration.
I did some tests on absorption without boiling years ago.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4209009
this is another old one which may be of interest https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22076763
Edited by blackout (08/25/23 11:11 PM)
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Shromolo
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: blackout] 1
#28447012 - 08/26/23 04:54 AM (5 months, 41 minutes ago) |
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So rhis is the result so far. Filled the glasses with boiling water. Soaked for 20 hours, and shaked. PC for 90 minutes.
75% water broke fairly easy. 80% I didn't manage to shake completly after cooking.
I'm gonna check the corn kernel a little later today to see if it was suffident with water, or if they need more pre boiling.
75 and 80% seen from the side
80% bottom :

First test, a fail!
-------------------- Understanding is enlightening, always be open to fresh input and diversity! Be a better man respect others as you would like to be respected. "The greatest journey of exploration is to understand our own minds. #Exploration #Understanding #Mind
Edited by Shromolo (08/26/23 07:37 AM)
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blackout


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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: Shromolo]
#28447450 - 08/26/23 01:32 PM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Shromolo said:
First test, a fail!
that is unfortunate, but glad to see you showing it, many will just not report stuff like this to save face. People need to see what is not advisable.
I saw similar results with mine. As I said it is harder to hydrate, so when it is cooking I picture a good layer of water in the bottom boiling away and the grains not absorbing it, so the bottom layer gets very hydrated and easily explodes. I see this with most of by grains, others reported it too, but all the more with popcorn. Those jars do not need to be totally dumped by the way, I had similar ones and colonised them, ignoring the bottom and was able to scoop out the good top section and leave the bottom area behind to be dumped.
Any failed jars can like this can also be taken out and rinsed off and heat treated again, a simple steaming will do if they were in a PC. This opens the possibility of lots of things, you can PC grains in a small PC in a small jar, then put those into lots of small container and steam in a very large pot.
The grain I think is most resistant to "exploding" is grass seed, and next would be brown rice but it also can explode.
If you are using LC to inoculate you can afford to purposely leave grains a little dry, and calculate water content and add in lots of LC. If grains are left drier than normal on purpose I would advise to heat treat for a longer time. By leaving grains dry I have added lots of LC and had really fast colonisation before.
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kingboomer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to low-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 1
#28447974 - 08/27/23 12:07 AM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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I have a confession to make.
I used your ratios for rye but put 8 jars worth into the IP, then jarred and pced. Here's the results:



Turned out perfect
-Kingboomer
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to low-prep grains [Re: kingboomer]
#28448213 - 08/27/23 09:17 AM (4 months, 29 days ago) |
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He'll yeah, thanks for reporting back and good luck!
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fatpup
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to low-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 1
#28448273 - 08/27/23 10:33 AM (4 months, 29 days ago) |
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The tek works great for oats. Besides user error of filling up the jar too much they seem to work great!
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stakesalad
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: cunningfox]
#28452986 - 08/30/23 10:33 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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I've stuck with trying this method as a backup for when I don't have a ton of time. I've only really had fails so far; but, one of them was because I didn't wash my WBS at all, and it dirtied the jar... It was gross... So I went with rinsing the second time but I wasn't measuring weight (I didn't see the note to do that)
I keep getting clumps; but, I did the best I've done this time around, and I used the weighing method.
I did a pre-wash of my Wild Bird seed. Weighed the jar (Ball Quart Wide Mouth, no lid or ring) + Dry Grain and it totaled 702.2g. Target number is 867.2g when I add the water in.
Did that, PC'd and here's the result:

I had to shake it quite a bit to get this bottom clump broken up. And even then I'll probably have some clumps to deal with once it cools off.
1) Is this an expected result? 2) Should I scale back on water? 3) I am not planning on using this grain for the next few weeks. I'm doing the upside down metal lid tek. My thought process was that if it's finger tight (or looser) it would dry out the grain, so I wanted to keep it tight; but, I'm told that I just need to keep finger tight (and I can back up 1/8th a turn if I want). What's the problem keeping fully tight if the water is sterile? Does it rot grain?
Thanks!
Edited by stakesalad (08/30/23 11:04 PM)
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: stakesalad]
#28452998 - 08/30/23 11:02 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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Hello Stakesalad, thank you for giving this a try! By the #s it looks like you've done it right! The clump at the bottom is a pain to break up, sometimes worse than others. I blame the cracked corn and milo in the bird mix I use. There will be clumps but they colonize fine, break up in subsequent shakes and are crumbled during S->B. I've made jars and left the clump of grains on the bottom, they colonize fine but take a few extra days.
A couple tips you might already know, rinsing helps, after the jars are filled to the right combined weight (water+grain) give them a gentle swirl to mix and redistribute the sunflower seeds, they are your friends! After the PC and the jars have cooled, smack the lid while rotating the jar to get the grain puck free from the bottom. Then treat it like it owes you $!
Good luck with your grow and please report back.
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stakesalad
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
#28453002 - 08/30/23 11:08 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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I didn't do the swirl, so I'll give that a try. I thought of it after I had the PC boiling. Whoops.
Will do. I'll do this method on the next batch, because I feel like I'm "successful enough" at this method now. The puck did break up; but, I had to really give it the business. Let's just say that I was kinda tired after the first jar, lol.
Why are the sunflowers my friends here? Some say those tend to carry contam more than other seeds, so I strained it out when I was using the overnight soak tek on my other jars
I edited my post above. Would you mind taking a peek at the #3 question I added?
Thx!
Edited by stakesalad (08/30/23 11:11 PM)
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: stakesalad]
#28453009 - 08/30/23 11:35 PM (4 months, 26 days ago) |
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Swirling the sunflower seeds back into the mix helps with the shake later. Bigger, easy to shake sunflower seeds in the grain puck helps out alot. As for sunflower seeds harboring contaminates, that has not been my experience, sterile grain should be sterile. I have noticed the sunflower seeds tend to be the first to recover after S->B and shakes.
I'm not sure I fully understand #3? I've only let me PCed grains sit, in the PC, for a couple days before using them. I'm not a fan of the idea of storing PCed jars for extended periods. Some people do with no problem, it just worries me. For the most part, with low-prep, you shouldn't need to keep jars around for extended periods. With low-prep you can have jars of grains, ready for the PCed in just a few minutes.
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NotFromGeorgia
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 1
#28453401 - 08/31/23 10:00 AM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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I've been trying out this no-prep and really like it. All of my attempts have been with WBS, and it definitely needs to be rinsed or else it gets nasty.
First attempts were with pint jars and they came out dry (466g total weight). The jars had a ton of condensation, and even gained 20g (assumed to be more water) during the cycle, but the grains didn't seem to absorb it. I put some agar in them 11 days ago and there's still no growth.
Then I tried quart jars with a little bit longer cycle and it's been great. My weight total came to about 880g, gained nothing during the cook, and seemed to be a little wet at the end. There are some burst grains and the volume increased more than I expected (1 1/3 cups -> 3 cups). The puck on the bottom was relatively easy to break apart. I put some agar to these 2 days ago and it's already jumping to the grains.

-------------------- The most important step a man can take. It's not the first one, is it? It's the next one. Always the next step, Dalinar.
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: NotFromGeorgia]
#28453429 - 08/31/23 10:29 AM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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Thank you NFG, I'm not sure what went wrong with the first batch of pints but you could probablytoss them at this point. The extra water weight would have to come from the PC during the cycle. I'd guess the lids didn't have foil or possibly cracks in the jars?
The quarts look great! If you go back to pints, do what you did with the quarts, just cut in 1/2. 😀
From 1/4 pint to quart size, you should only need to run your PC cycle 90min.
Good luck!
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NotFromGeorgia
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 1
#28453456 - 08/31/23 10:56 AM (4 months, 25 days ago) |
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You're correct, the pint lids had SFD's and no foil so the steam got right in then condensed. Quarts were the same lids but with foil.
I'm using an IP until the budget is available for an actual pressure cooker. Pints were cooked for 150 mins, quarts for 180. The quarts are a tight fit. A tea towel on the bottom keeps them from touching the metal pot and cracking. Balancing the water level has been weird and varies a lot depending on the pre-steam timing so still figuring that out.
My attempts with a soak/boil/dry then sterilize process all ended up with a mushy mess. Thanks a bunch for putting this no prep idea out there.
-------------------- The most important step a man can take. It's not the first one, is it? It's the next one. Always the next step, Dalinar.
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