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Fucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
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BASIC Grain Prep
#3070993 - 08/30/04 08:40 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey everybody I just wanted to share a simple conclustion I have reached. 
After messing with alot of different grains for past year or so. I want to share the easiest way to get the water content correct in any type of grain. Everytime 
Soak in water 24 hours Put on med heat until grains just start to split Drain very, very well Fill jars 75%
I know this may sound very elementary to most of you and this info is everywhere, look up to the top of this forum for Magash's Rye grain tek,but I see there are alot of new people this week.
-------------------- What it is, is what it is my Brother. It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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Gr8fulJ420
strange but nota stranger


Registered: 02/17/01
Posts: 2,778
Loc: 0 moco
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3071007 - 08/30/04 08:43 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Is using a standard multi-spore syringe to innoculate the grain okay?
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george castanza
Lord Of The Idiots!

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 8,721
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Gr8fulJ420]
#3071014 - 08/30/04 08:45 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gr8fulJ420 said: Is using a standard multi-spore syringe to innoculate the grain okay?
yup
-------------------- KRAMER CAKES


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LocoJRP
newbie
Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 41
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3071074 - 08/30/04 08:54 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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If a grain qt jar with Rye is not drained enough after simmering, could it be ok or will something definitely go wrong?
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Fucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: LocoJRP]
#3071120 - 08/30/04 09:01 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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If after Pcing you have water in the bottom of jar then you didn't drain it enough.
That dosn't mean it will fail. It might make it but. you wont be using the yucky stuff in the bottom of jar.
-------------------- What it is, is what it is my Brother. It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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LocoJRP
newbie
Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 41
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3071189 - 08/30/04 09:11 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, there was a little water in the bottom of the jars before i started the pc. Hopefully it will be gone when it's finished.
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Fucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: LocoJRP]
#3071206 - 08/30/04 09:15 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yaeh it most likly will when I get the jars ready for the pc sometimes I don't get back to it until the next day and there is always some water in the bottom. The reason to fill e'm 75% is, the grains still will absorb water and puff up.
-------------------- What it is, is what it is my Brother. It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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Gr8fulJ420
strange but nota stranger


Registered: 02/17/01
Posts: 2,778
Loc: 0 moco
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: LocoJRP]
#3071241 - 08/30/04 09:21 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've used PF + casing a couple of times and had moderate results. I've thought of using rye and now I think I've been convinced to give it a shot. How much spore solution should one squirt inside a prepared rye jar?
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caimen
the unknown
Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 184
Loc: HERE
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Gr8fulJ420]
#3071421 - 08/30/04 09:51 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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try this frist then use the in the jars http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/8005 For the karo jar, 10 drops where used and worked very well !
-------------------- MAN Made Speed GOD Made Weed <Who do YOU TRUST ? > http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/25954
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LocoJRP
newbie
Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 41
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3071458 - 08/30/04 09:58 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I took them out of the pc and the water that was on the bottom is gone but the grains look kind of dry and cooked. I think they must have absorbed alot of water though, since i started with about a cup of rye in each jar and now there is over two cups. Does it sound like they came out ok?
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utopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3072106 - 08/31/04 01:06 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have never had a problem with this:
Pour into pot, simmer for 30 mins. Done.
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Alacritas
Student ofMycology

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 60
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3072161 - 08/31/04 01:30 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I rinse for an hour, then I load it into a pillow case, and let it soak for 24 hours, then I hang it to drip dry for 12 hours. (overnight) My water content is always perfect.
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Bi0TeK
elephant man

Registered: 11/07/02
Posts: 3,002
Loc: Yorkshire Moors, Great Br...
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3072722 - 08/31/04 04:35 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why not just add the correct water ratio to the grain in the first place then pc??? You can't get more basic than that.
-------------------- PROMOTE BACTERIA. THEY'RE THE ONLY CULTURE SOME PEOPLE HAVE.
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Red
spun

Registered: 05/12/04
Posts: 473
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Bi0TeK]
#3072858 - 08/31/04 06:19 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well.. different grains have different moisture contents, and sometimes it can be difficult to gauge how much water is the right amount.
-------------------- Pussy Thunderclap, snap my back. Chop me into peices, and serve me as a snack.
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kitteh
yeehaw

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 134
Loc: SC
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Red]
#3072887 - 08/31/04 06:48 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Whats the right water ratio? I know WBS is 2/3wbs and 1/3h20, but what about popcorn and rye? I havent found the ratio for popcorn or rye yet. Maybe noone actually knows the correct ratio.
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utopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3073341 - 08/31/04 10:35 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Should I let the grain sit and soak overnight, or pressure cook right away?
Grain(particularly rye and wheat) carry high loads of bacterial endospores. If one experiences bacterial contamination problems the grain can be left to soak overnight (up to 24 hours) before pressure cooking to allow bacterial endospores to hatch.
If you let it soak too long, the grain itself will eventually start to germinate, which is not desirable. This can particularly be the case, if the temperature at which the jars are left is high, for instance in the summer. In this case it?s better to reduce the soaking time to around 12 hour
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23310
There are 2 main approaches to grain preparation:
Method 1.) Rinse the grain several times under flowing water and simmer it until the grains are soaked and begin to explode. With rye the simmer time is around 45 minutes, with millet or millet based birdseed around 30 minutes(but it strongly depends on the individual brand) Then strain the cooked grain for 20 minutes, fill in jars, screw on a lid fitted with a filter and pressure cook for 1 hour.
Method 2.) Fill the jars directly with the proper amounts of grain and water and pressure cook for 1 hour. If one experiences bacterial contamination problems the grain can be left to soak up to 24 hours before pressure cooking to allow bacterial endospores to germinate.
Basic rye recipe for 1 pint jar:
- 100g(3.5 oz ~ 125 ml) rye - 110g(3.9 oz =110 ml) water - knife tip full of gypsum
Basic millet or birdseed recipe for 1 pint jar:
- 100g(3.5 oz ~ 140 ml) birdseed - 80g(2.8 oz = 80 ml) water - knife tip full of gypsum
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23308
Not trying to tell anybody to look in the faq, I was interested myself so I thought I'd dig it up anyway.
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Fucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
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Hey the whole point of this thread was to take all the " Formulas out of the mix"
I have use several types of grains and This always works for them all,everytime.
Soak 24 hours in water, however you like.
Simmer on med heat until the grains just start to split.
Drain very,very well, however you like
Fill any size jar 75%
-------------------- What it is, is what it is my Brother. It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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countZero
the strange
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 20
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3073633 - 08/31/04 12:19 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Here's a question I have regarding popcorn. I find that my mycelium is a lot shorter and less aggressive than if I innoculate BRF cakes. Is this normal or is something wrong with my technique?
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Bi0TeK
elephant man

Registered: 11/07/02
Posts: 3,002
Loc: Yorkshire Moors, Great Br...
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Bi0TeK]
#3074155 - 08/31/04 02:19 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Red said: Well.. different grains have different moisture contents, and sometimes it can be difficult to gauge how much water is the right amount.
Quote:
kitteh said: Whats the right water ratio? I know WBS is 2/3wbs and 1/3h20, but what about popcorn and rye? I havent found the ratio for popcorn or rye yet. Maybe noone actually knows the correct ratio.
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23322
http://www.fungifun.org/grain/
Quote:
utopianglory said: If one experiences bacterial contamination problems the grain can be left to soak overnight (up to 24 hours) before pressure cooking to allow bacterial endospores to hatch.
Thats an untruth. Perhaps that should read "If one experiences bacterial contamination problems then it's high time you bought a new pressure cooker." 
Quote:
The FAQ States: Do I need a pressure cooker if I want to prepare grains?
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23307
Grains usually contain higher loads of bacterial endospores which are very hardy and which survive the temperature of boiling water, therefore a normal cooking process can't kill them. A pressure cooker is required, since the temperature in a pressure cooker is high enough to destroy the endospores.
The saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" springs to mind with you guys.
-------------------- PROMOTE BACTERIA. THEY'RE THE ONLY CULTURE SOME PEOPLE HAVE.
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utopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Bi0TeK]
#3075875 - 08/31/04 10:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Fucknuckle, I posted that because somebody asked about formulas. Not only that but I posted a far quicker way to get water content right in that message anyway. Rinse and then simmer for 30 mins.
BiOTeK, I don't expect to have to explain myself every time I do someone a favor and post the faq questions surrounding the issue that is involved.
If you want to critique the faq thats your business, but get your facts straight, its not untrue that soaking helps with germination. That is a fact. Whether it is needed in a situation with a good pressure cooker is the contentious point and the one you should take up anno, not me. However there is no point changing the FAQ because the question points out alot more now than it ever would by the simple answer "Get a new pressure cooker". Not to mention the fact you missed out the part that points out it was talking about more hardier grains that might take longer in the PC without soaking.
So before you post again, I suggest you check that you're not spreading and untruths yourself.
There is a saying in my parts "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones".
Sorry if you are offended by this but I don't enjoy people picking apart things I say
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fearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Loc:
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i tried WBS and failed miserably, I think due to incorrect water content.... i assume it was too wet for the spores to germinate and they barely started colonizing after over 2 weeks and eventually contaminated due to it taking so long to start.
I'm proud to say though that my pressure cooker is pregnant and will be delivering some new RYE jars in a little bit. I'm a happy daddy. I can't wait to see the kids.
I followed this to the letter and am hoping for the best soak 24 hours simmer ~30 minutes drain WELL PC little over 1.5 hours in a 12psi cooker
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3076975 - 09/01/04 04:46 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fucknuckle said: Soak 24 hours in water, however you like.
Simmer on med heat until the grains just start to split.
Drain very,very well, however you like
Fill any size jar 75%
Good post Fucknuckle, I gave you 5 shrooms. People have been overcomplicating a simple process for far too long.
I have an even simpler process than yours... 1. Soak 24 hours in water, however you like. 2. Drain very,very well, however you like 3. Fill any size jar 75%
The simmering of the grain is a waste of time IMHO. Rye, at least, will soak up plenty of water in 24 hours, to the point where you have to drain it very well.
I also recommend soaking the grain in a cool place to reduce bacterial problems and limit any chance of germination.
-FF
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shirley knott
not my real name

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 9,105
Loc: London
Last seen: 7 years, 27 days
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: fastfred]
#3077086 - 09/01/04 05:55 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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fastfred, have you ever grown mushrooms?
i keep seeing you post that 'iyho' incubators, simmering grain, and sensible agar recipes are all a waste of time.
-------------------- buh
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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My opinion might not be popular, but I stick by it. 
I've never said that sensible agar recipes are a waste of time. The rest of my comments are usually qualified by the fact that I'm writing to noobs who are talking about elaborate setups for their first 1 dozen jar grow. Simplicity is the best method for noobs.
Personally I have an incubator, flow hood, etc. If you are doing a small batch though, it is far better to simply wait another 2-3 days rather than make an elaborate and expensive setup. It's far more foolproof IMHO.
-FF
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Fucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: fastfred]
#3077598 - 09/01/04 10:21 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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It very important to simmer grain!!! Want proof?? While I have never done this exactly I am quite sure it would go just like this..... Take 2 cups of your grain and soak 24 hours like you said and remeasure it??? About 3 cups mabey?? More water avaiable to the fungus the fatter and more plentful the harvest, silly Now take 2 cups of grain and soak for 24 hours then simmer until grains just split. Now remeasure . How much have you got???? I bet it would be 4 cups or more You can talk all you want but experience is the teacher and words are just guides.ANd I think I agree with shirly you are not coming from " Down home expereince....Bro" Paul Stamets is Fungus Humungus in my mind.When you talk in a negtive way about him ,That is like talking about every shrommer's momma.
-------------------- What it is, is what it is my Brother. It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3077680 - 09/01/04 10:55 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fucknuckle said: It very important to simmer grain!!! Want proof??
Yes.
Quote:
Now take 2 cups of grain and soak for 24 hours then simmer until grains just split. Now remeasure . How much have you got???? I bet it would be 4 cups or more
So you're saying that it's less dense or that it's absorbed more water?
Quote:
You can talk all you want but experience is the teacher and words are just guides.ANd I think I agree with shirly you are not coming from " Down home expereince....Bro"
Well you would be wrong about that. I've done many, many jars of rye with excellent results. I've never simmered any of it. I have simmered millet, and my conclusion is that cracked millet results in poor performance. So to cut to the point... Do you have to simmer rye? No, not at all. You can get nice healthy flushes covering every square inch of surface area for a solid three flushes without simmering anything. Maybe you can get some small improvement by simmering it. I'm certainly not claiming that your technique doesn't work, but it's certainly not required. I'll try simmering some for a comparison, but it would have to do pretty damn good to beat the results I've had without simmering.
Quote:
Paul Stamets is Fungus Humungus in my mind.When you talk in a negtive way about him ,That is like talking about every shrommer's momma.
Whoa! I'm not badmouthing Stamets. I respect him a ton. I'm not even sure that what I disputed was a correct quote. But it didn't even make sense, let alone being correct. Again, he is a great man, but that doesn't make him right in every instance, particularly not that one. -FF
Edited by fastfred (09/01/04 11:07 AM)
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Fucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: fastfred]
#3077685 - 09/01/04 10:57 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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OK you win
-------------------- What it is, is what it is my Brother. It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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countZero
the strange
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 20
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3082138 - 09/02/04 10:17 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think if one is using a grain other than rye e.g. popcorn then the simmering part is necessary. Although I haven't had a huge success with grain I did learn one thing. after soaking popcorn for 24hrs I split it into 2 batches. 1 I simmered for an hour then PCd 90 mins. The other I PCd immediatley for 90 mins. The result was that the one I didn't Simmer didn't even innoculate at all. Like I said I haven't had huge success with grain but I'm sure there is an even better way of getting those popcorn krenals to soak up more moisture.
Maybe soaking it for 72hrs 1st(hopefully they won't start growing) and then heating in water (not simmering) for another few hours?
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: BASIC Grain Prep [Re: countZero]
#3085898 - 09/03/04 02:13 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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72 hrs is probably too long IMO. You'll probably have rotting by then.
-FF
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