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YoshiTrainer
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YoshiTrainer's guide to low-prep grains 54
#28052502 - 11/15/22 10:35 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Below is a chart I put together for low prep methods for various grains. To me, soaking, boiling, draining and drying are all a waste of time. For the most part, I measure my grains, add water, then lid/foil and into the PC. For a lot of these grains, it is that simple, for others, a little extra care is needed. These #s are what work for me, you might need small adjustments for your materials. I will also add, smaller jars are more carefree than larger. Edit: when you bring your PC to temperature, use a medium+ heat, this may help reduce burst grains The values below are grain:water.
Grain 1/4 Pint Quart Lb
Millet 2Tbsp:1Tbsp 1 1/3C:158ml Milo 2Tbsp:21ml 1 1/3C:210ml
Oats 2Tbsp:17ml 1 1/3C:175ml
Pearled barley 25g:15ml 1lb:270ml
Rye 2Tbsp:22ml 1 1/3C:230ml
RGS 2Tbsp:13ml 1 1/3C:150ml
Wheat 2Tbsp:22ml 1 1/3C:240ml
WBR 25g:17ml 1lb:275ml
WBS 2Tbsp:16ml 1 1/3C:165ml
Millet: a great choice for no prep, cheap and easy to work with. It is 2:1 seed:water by volume.
Milo: Kind of a pain to work with but seems to be good for spawn and great for drying later.
Oats: Many love or hate these grains. They are easy to work with, a good price and work really well for hearty spawn.
Pearled barley: I added this one mostly for edible mycelium TEKs, should be done in bags.
Rye: Another great choice, it is easy to work with, just grain + water.
RGS: Surprisingly easy to work with, measure it is a heavy 2 to a light 1 seed:water ratio by volume. I use RGS for high spawn rate with low nutrition.
Wheat: Another classic, a little sticky and hard to shake though. Not the best for big jars but great in bags.t
Whole Brown Rice (WBR): Another grain I use mostly for edible mycelium TEK. Should use bags for this one.
Wild Bird Seed (WBS): I've warmed up to WBS alot lately. Give it a whack on the lid to get the grain puck loose then a good shake.
Rinsing: For grains that need rinsing, you need cold water, a scale and a strainer. For single jars, add your grains to the jar, place jar on scale and rezero your scale. Keep the scale "awake" while you rinse your grains. Put your jar back on the rezeroed scale and add your water (1ml=1g).
You could also find the weight of your grains + jar and add water weight. Rinse with cold water to your heart's content, drain, don't worry about drying. I have a small mesh strainer the fits inside the jars mouth to drain with. Reweigh your jar and top with water til you reach your right weight (jar + dried grain weight + water weight). As an example, if your jar and dry grains weigh 550g and you are adding 200ml water (200g), your jar should weigh 750g after rinsing/draining then topping off. If you normally make multiple jars, consider with the first round weighing them all and taking the average. Just use that average for this and the next runs.

Some final thoughts, no prep will save you tons of time and effort. The grains will not come out evenly hydrated, some will be drier, a few will have burst, some even leave a film in the jar, it is all fine. Of the grains tested, millet, oats, rye and RGS were the easiest to work with then WBS, milo and wheat. Also, maybe anecdotal but grain mixes, seem to work better, two I use a lot are:
I start most of my agar on this grain mix, in a quarter pint jar, add
1 Tbsp oats 1 Tbsp rye 19ml water
PC 90min @15psi
Here it was dumped on MS Starry Night agar

I G2G the quarter pints to these pints then use them to bulk or you could G2G to quarts.
In a pint 2 Tbsp oats 2 Tbsp rye 2 Tbsp millet 2 Tbsp RGS 66ml water
PC 90 min @ 15 psi

With MS Starry Night

I hope you will try a jar of no prep your next PC cycle and let me know how it works out.
Cheers!
Some conversions
1 1/3 C = 315.45ml 2 Tbsp = 29.57 ml 1 lb = 454.59 g
Some pics:
Millet
1/4 Pt
(photo coming)
Pt w/Fp+

Qt w/PExAPEU

Milo
1/4 Pt w Fp+

W/MS Starry Night

Pt w/Bell capped subaeruginosa

Qt w/PExAPEU unfortunately I started to shake the jar right before the pic.

Oats
1/4 Pt w MS Starry Night

Oats dumped on Natalensis agar

Pt w/Alutacea

Qt w/Subtropicalis

Pearled barley
Lb w/ Subtropicalis

Rye
1/4 Pt w/Fp+

Pt w/Yellow subaeruginosa

Qt w/PExAPEU

RGS
1/4 Pt w/Pan bisporus

1/2 Pt w/Pan 'Trop Aus'

Pt w/MS Starry Night

Qt w/Pan bisporus

Wheat
1/4 Pt w/MS Starry Night

W/Yellow subaeruginosa

W/Natalensis

Pt w/Gymnopilus purpuratus

Qt w/PExAPEU

WBR
Lb w/Subtropicalis

WBS 1/4 Pt w/PExAPEU

W/Yellow subaeruginosa

W/Subtropicalis

Pt w/W/Yellow subaeruginosa

Qt w/PExAPEU
Edited by YoshiTrainer (11/16/23 11:27 PM)
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99.99
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 6
#28053327 - 11/15/22 06:31 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah i think grain prep is a wast of time also, i use this for wheat,and rye
Nobody does it like me 1 cup wheat 1 cup water 1cup vermiculite
Cook in mushroom grow bags for an hour and a half 15 psi ,let cool and inoculate in front of flowhood After bags are fully colonized i put in greenhouse enjoy mushrooms
No grain prep no soaking no extra steps other than what I’ve said
Close bags up like this before you cook and leave them like this to colonize

My martha set up Light on 24/7 80° Humidity on for 15 minutes off for 1/2 hour

Some of my all wheat grows






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SDO
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Nice write up I hope this will save 1/2 the total 4 hours a day I spend making 15x bags/~1850 gr of soaked/rinsed (hot tap)/drained/laid out/box fan dried of whole oats. I'll get back with ya on it with same grains/bag, same LC shot into them side by side in production scale. Worst case scenario is I waste 15 bags, 25 bucks in grain, a few hours figuring out how to do something faster, better, and more efficient... or not TY for the test idea!
UPDATE - Mon Nov 21 17:30:16 MST 2022: Test #1 (6x bags, in Presto 23 qt PC) of 1800 gr (1040/760 grams of whole oat/hot tap, 26:19) per bag (5 lb capacity, .2 micron) is now unloaded, cooling. PC'ed for 2.5 hours @ 15 psi, 8600 elev. Not many, if any, busted hulls, not much mush, grains a bit darker than I'm accustomed with SOP grains after 24 hours in PC cooling. Grains did 'dry a bit' after completely cooling, maybe absorbed into hulls. A tiny bit of 'mush' on the bottom of the bags, might need to dial back %H2O by 1% or so. Grain bags went in at exactly 1800 grams, and came out plus or minus 1 gram. Trials bags look dirty compared to SOP bags. Also handling hot was new to me, had to be gentle and was concerned about stretching/ripping them apart. Light handling was used. Production % up 20% (could fit easily 6 bags into the PC, vs 5 with presoaked), time reduced by 1.5 hours of work. I can now schedule in a long day with this 'same day' process, 4 cycles over 13 hours. This means 2 days to do the work that often would take 1 week. 72 bags each day, 144 bags in 2 long days, and take the rest of the week off.
Next up... side-by-side inoc of these bags with SOP bags, along with long term storage/viability trials of these trial bags (I've had SOP bags stored for 6-12 months without contam, used, and gone to production). The key points are immediate use, short and long term production use, as well as viability to customers over time stored, shipped, etc. So far the no soak/no rinse has saved me 1.5 hours a production cycle. Keep fingers crossed it all works through production/fruiting/storage and sales. I pray this works.

I also found these videos useful:
UPDATE: Mon Nov 28 10:31:50 MST 2022
I've done trials this past week on no soak, and I'm not happy with the quality, and higher risk of contam/etc. Going to stick with what I have been doing, the 24 hr cold soak/strain and 5x *HOT* water rinse/1 hour layout and air dry/bag 1800 gr into 6mm thick, .2 micron/PC for 2.5 hour @ 15 psi/24 hour cooling, unpack, seal/shoot and tape, etc. Better looking bag, less handling of 'hot' materials, and doesn't require me to do this with hood/sterile room procedures. Just easier, simpler. Tumbling by hand of very hot bags is not of interest to me long or short term. Yes, this is most costly on time, no question, but the end result is what I'm after and there is a significant visual differences, and very likely increased risks involved (I'm not going to fruit test to verify my considerations on this topic, so buyer beware on speculation here).
If I value my time at 25 per hour, which is pretty low even for a hobby 'business', my per grain spawn (uninoculated) bag production costs are $7.73 per bag. So, it would make sense in the Spring or next Fall for me to hire it out instead, and likely will. Found someone that does this exact process mentioned above for 8 per bag at ~4 lb per bag like mine. So now with 200+ bags and set for the Winter months, I'll likely change over to purchasing 1600 USD worth of bags instead of making my own.
This has been a good learning experience, and I really appreciate the thread of discussion, helping me realize doing everything myself is not necessarily in my own best interests or to the hobby either. If I value my time in other aspect of the hobby, or free time, its time to turn this over to someone else with what I consider to be (at least using bags) a better and cleaner, more sterile procedure.
Edited by SDO (11/28/22 10:39 AM)
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Suckatshrooms
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
#28058246 - 11/18/22 01:39 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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You got me excited, but then lost me when you listed a volume of oats. I don’t know how much that is! Can you clarify with weights for oats? Thanks for the effort you put into this!
Quote:
YoshiTrainer said: Below is a chart I put together for no or low prep methods for various grains. To me, soaking, boiling, draining and drying are all a waste of time. For the most part, I measure my grains, add water, then lid/foil and into the PC. For a lot of these grains, it is that simple, for others, a little extra care is needed. With some grains, a pinch of gypsum seems to help, some need rinsing, a few need to be shaken while still hot. These #s are what work for me, you might need small adjustments for your materials. I will also add, smaller jars are more carefree than larger. The values below are grain:water.
Grain 1/4 Pint Pint Lb
Millet 2Tbsp:1Tbsp 1 1/3C:160ml Milo 2Tbsp:20ml 1 1/3C:200ml
Oats 2Tbsp:20ml 1 1/3C:200ml
Pearled barley 25g:15ml 1lb:270ml
Rye 2Tbsp:20ml 1 1/3C:200ml
RGS 2Tbsp:13ml 1 1/3C:150ml
Wheat 2Tbsp:20ml 1 1/3C:200ml
WBR 25g:17ml 1lb:275ml
WBS 2Tbsp:20ml 1 1/3C:190ml
Millet: a great choice for no prep, cheap and easy to work with. It is 2:1 seed:water by volume, you can let it cool completely in the PC before using.
Milo: Kind of a pain to work with but seems to be good for spawn. Milo benefits from 1tsp of gyp per Qt and a shaking the jar while still hot, after the PC cycle.
Oats: Many love or hate these grains. They are a great price and work really well for hearty spawn. Fairly easy to work with, a warm shake is helpful but not necessary.
Pearled barley: I added this one mostly for edible mycelium TEKs, should be done in bags.
Rye: Another great choice, it is easy to work with, just grain + water, allow to cool in PC.
RGS: Surprisingly easy to work with, measure it is a heavy 2 to a light 1 seed:water ratio by volume. I use RGS for high spawn rate with low nutrition.
Wheat: Another classic, fairly easy to work with, it does benefit from a warm shake after PC.
Whole Brown Rice (WBR): Another grain I use mostly for edible mycelium TEK. Should use bags for this one.
Wild Bird Seed (WBS): This tends to be dirty and needs rinsing, especially if it has cracked corn in it. It also takes 1tsp gypsum per Qt and must be shaken while hot.
Rinsing: For grains that need rinsing, like WBS, you need cold water, a scale and a strainer. For single jars, add your grains to the jar and weigh it (jar + dried grain). To that # add the weight of the water you will be adding (1ml=1g). The sum will be the final weight of your jar. Rinse with cold water to your heart's content, drain, don't worry about drying. I have a small mesh strainer the fits inside the jars mouth to drain with. Reweigh your jar and top with water til you reach your right weight (jar + dried grain weight + water weight). As an example, if your jar and dry grains weigh 550g and you are adding 200ml water (200g), your jar should weigh 750g after rinsing/draining then topping off. If you normally make multiple jars, consider with the first round weighing them all and taking the average. Just use that average for this and the next runs.

Some final thoughts, no prep will save you tons of time and effort. The grains will not come out evenly hydrated, some will be drier, a few will have burst, some even leave a film in the jar, it is all fine. Of the grains tested, millet, rye and RGS were the easiest to work with then oats, wheat, milo and WBS. Also, maybe anecdotal but grain mixes, seem to work better, two I use a lot are:
I start most of my agar on this grain mix, in a quarter pint jar, add
1 Tbsp oats 1 Tbsp rye 20ml water
PC 90min @15psi
Here it was dumped on MS Starry Night agar

I G2G the quarter pints to these pints then use them to bulk or you could G2G to quarts.
In a pint 2 Tbsp oats 2 Tbsp rye 2 Tbsp millet 2 Tbsp RGS 66ml water
PC 90 min @ 15 psi

With MS Starry Night

I hope you will try a jar of no prep your next PC cycle and let me know how it works out.
Cheers!
Some conversions
1 1/3 C = 236.59 ml 2 Tbsp = 29.57 ml 1 lb = 454.59 g
Some pics:
Millet
1/4 Pt
(photo coming)
Pt w/Fp+

Qt w/PExAPEU

Milo
1/4 Pt w Fp+

W/MS Starry Night

Pt w/Bell capped subaeruginosa

Qt w/PExAPEU unfortunately I started to shake the jar right before the pic.

Oats
1/4 Pt w MS Starry Night

Oats dumped on Natalensis agar

Pt w/Alutacea

Qt w/Subtropicalis

Pearled barley
Lb w/ Subtropicalis

Rye
1/4 Pt w/Fp+

Pt w/Yellow subaeruginosa

Qt w/PExAPEU

RGS
1/4 Pt w/Pan bisporus

1/2 Pt w/Pan 'Trop Aus'

Pt w/MS Starry Night

Qt w/Pan bisporus

Wheat
1/4 Pt w/MS Starry Night

W/Yellow subaeruginosa

W/Natalensis

Pt w/Gymnopilus purpuratus

Qt w/PExAPEU

WBR
Lb w/Subtropicalis

WBS 1/4 Pt w/PExAPEU

W/Yellow subaeruginosa

W/Subtropicalis

Pt w/W/Yellow subaeruginosa

Qt w/PExAPEU

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milkboy
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
#28059785 - 11/19/22 09:47 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Interesting idea, I do run my stove cranked all the way up through venting and building of pressure so maybe your on to something...
To be clear I used 1 and 1/3 cup of wheat and 200g (ml) water for my qt jars, Ill snap a pic of the jars later if I remember
Edit.
Edited by milkboy (11/19/22 10:09 AM)
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: mind.at.large]
#28063058 - 11/21/22 10:50 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Hello Mind.at.large, so far I've only done up to 3 pound bags. They seem do fine but use slightly less water.
Milkboy, I tell you hwhat. You might not know this but sometimes I am a complete dumbass! Did you try hot shaking your wheat jars? Your first jars were the right ratio just needed a thorough shake. I made some pints and allowed them to completely cool in the PC w/out shaking. Though smaller jars are easier, I still had some solid pucks of grain in the bottom of the jars like you. You made it right the first time! 
To be honest I hadn't taken pictures of the bottoms of my jars but they do look like yours. I was able to break up the cold grains with shaking but it did take effort. There was a mix of hydration levels with the grains and a film on the inside of the jar but that is all fine. I G2G from 1/4 pints and shook again. I did 3 jars of wheat and 2 of oats. BTW, Oats were much easier to shake.
WHEAT


OATS

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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: milkboy]
#28063106 - 11/21/22 11:27 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Thank you for trying Milkboy, I really appreciate your effort!!! Maybe just try 1 jar so you dont waste anymore time or materials. I don't think 150ml is going to work any better but I hope I am wrong, good luck! I don't think it is a difference in grains either. Here are some wheat pics, BTW 1 1/3C of wheat weighed 268g.

Before the PC
Wheat
Oats

It is weird they did not break up when you gave them the hot shake. I wonder if a tsp of gypsum would help, it does wonders for WBS. I'm no Hulk but I did manage to break up the pucks of cold grains with some effort.
Thank you again!
I may have to run a couple wheat quarts next!
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 3
#28066038 - 11/23/22 01:23 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Milkboy, I ran a QT of wheat last night and let it cool completely in the PC. My dial read 17-18 psi for 90min. I'll takes more pics tonight.
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
#28068781 - 11/25/22 12:40 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Here is a quart of wheat, 1 1/3C grain to 200ml water, PC 90min, the gauge was 17-18psi and allowed to cool completely in the PC. Thankfully the jar didn't crack because I'm almost out of wheat. It was a piece of cake to break it up, only took like 3 whacks...... 😀
Wheat definitely needs to be added to the hot shake list with milo and WBS. It took me about 3 minutes of work and some cursing but I got it. Did I mention oats are easier? 😀
This is not directed at anyone specific, only added for information purposes.
Straight from the cold PC
A few whacks on the lid while rotating the jar gets the grain puck loose.
A combination of whacking the bottom sides and the top while rotating, gets the grain puck on it's side. Then it is on!
The grains stuck to the jar a bit.
After the G2G and another shake. Not bad for a cold jar and when the myc expands, I'll shake again.
Edited by YoshiTrainer (11/25/22 12:43 PM)
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: milkboy] 2
#28068795 - 11/25/22 12:51 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Selfie

Thank you again Milkboy for all your efforts, I really appreciate it! If you ever go back to oats, give it a try!
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 1
#28075341 - 11/29/22 11:20 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Thank you for your second update SDO,
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28057352#28057352
I appreciate your input. I'm glad you found a way to cut even more time from your work day. I'd like to add that oats do not need a hot shake in jars or crumble in a bag. For bags, because of their pliability, you could get away with letting any of the grains listed above cool completely in your PC. Good luck!
Wheat pint jars G2G on 11/20, (L-R) sus looking Fp+, MS Starry Night, Subtropicalis
Oat pint jars G2G on 11/20 both Fp+
Wheat quart from 11/24, Caerulescens 'CN" (from dried grain)

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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
#28081167 - 12/03/22 11:01 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Here are a couple bags of no-prep grains for longterm storage, without inoculation. Top to bottom, WBS, oats, rye. The grain prep was designed for immediate usage so this has me curious, thank you SDO.

A little more water to the wheat prep seemed to make it easier to cold shake. I'll do another run with just a touch more to see what happens.
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Bajazly
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: Bajazly] 1
#28083535 - 12/04/22 04:35 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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This worked out pretty stellar but in each jar there is a large marble size chunk that won't break up. I let them cool overnight in the PC, would giving them a hot shake help with the clumps next time? or a little more water?
Don't think the myc will care but time will tell I guess.
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: Bajazly] 1
#28094422 - 12/12/22 10:41 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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The quart of 'CN' caerulescens on wheat from here
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28068781#28068781
is looking ready for bulk. I gave it one shake midway.
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tedoro
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
#28094738 - 12/12/22 03:55 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
YoshiTrainer said: The quart of 'CN' caerulescens on wheat from here
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28068781#28068781
is looking ready for bulk. I gave it one shake midway.

Yoshi,
Have you considered posting a photo of this jar in this forum for critique?
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27187543
I think you may find the responses from TC's very informative.
-------------------- -------------------- Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC
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Bajazly
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 2
#28108978 - 12/22/22 04:41 PM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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These are the 4 jars I did up 2 1/2 weeks ago. This is a little under 3 days after the second shake and they seem to be doing pretty well I think. Most of the bigger clumps seem to have broken up fairly well too. Think I'm gonna do 1:3 on these to see how they go, the 1:2 I've been doing hasn't worked out quite as good as I hoped so guess I'll find out.
2 are from 1 plate pin and 2 are from another plate pin I grew out on agar so I'm hoping for a decent canopy in the two SBs.

I have 2 other jars I no prepped of red millet I threw a whole plate pin in each and those are looking good too, so far I'm really liking this grain prep method. Super quick and easy working very well so far.
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
#28224928 - 03/11/23 10:12 AM (10 months, 12 days ago) |
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Here is and update on the bags of grain I PCed on 12/2 and sealed w/out inoculation.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28081167#28081167.
Other than the cracked corn getting a little squishy in the WBS, they all look good.
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer] 1
#28324747 - 05/18/23 12:35 PM (8 months, 6 days ago) |
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I updated the original post a little.
Here is Pan cyan 'Peace River' on pints of low prep oats, rye and WBS. The rye and WBS have a 3 day start on the oats.
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YoshiTrainer
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: YoshiTrainer]
#28355844 - 06/11/23 04:16 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Something to look out for, because low-prep conserves all the grain's nutrition, mycelium growth can be thicker, more robust. If you are used to other prep methods, it may take a couple jars to get used to the appearance.
Bags of low-prep grain that were PCed but not inoculated, just past the 6 month mark.

Year old Natalensis on low-prep WBR and pearled barley
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Re: YoshiTrainer's guide to no-prep grains [Re: mycolojay] 1
#28376010 - 06/27/23 01:10 AM (6 months, 29 days ago) |
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Alright, went for it with oats. Ball 450ml jars. Noticed 1 1/3c was way too much.. so went for 1cup. Which was also a bit too much, but I'm going agar to grain, so decided to try anyway.
The jars are 245gr.. 1 cup of oats up to 398gr.. with 131ml of water total weight 524gr. I did all jars exactly the same. PC for 1,5h. The grains on top look under hydrated, the grains at the bottom mush.

As the jars are too full to shake, I decided to keep them upside down, I hope some moisture will gets absorbed by the dry top grains. Ofcourse I couldn't fit jars on their side.. forgot and tried anyway.. heard water trickling and noticed my mistake. So 5 jars have been sitting overnight and are partially hydrated.. I gave them a good shake and processing them now. Curious to do a side by side and see if the grains come out the same or not.
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