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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Brown Rice Flour, Rye Grain, Vermiculite, Wild Bird Seed

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Offlinelaughingbuddha
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how long to let simmered grains drain before pc
    #3901496 - 03/11/05 10:20 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Do you think it would be a problem if i simmered wbs, popcorn, and some brown rice at roughly the same time, drained them for about 30 min each, jarred em, and then waited a few hours until i could pc everything? i only have one colander and thus i'm staggering my simmering & draining shifts: one drains while another simmers, when one is done draining and put in jars, the simmering grain goes to the colander. i don't have time to start pressure cooking them because i have an appointment in 2 hours that should last about an hour. in my experience two hours is just barely enough time to pc stuff for 1 hour, as it takes almost an hour for the pressure to rise. so some of the grains will be sitting in their jars for at least a couple of hours until i can pressure cook them. i'll be doing some rye in this little experiment too. rye, wbs, popcorn, and brown rice (i figure if it works as flour it should work whole as well). i should cook up some pasta for this extravaganza and try that too.


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OfflineMycoJunkie
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Re: how long to let simmered grains drain before pc [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3901521 - 03/11/05 10:29 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

a 20 min drain is probably good


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Re: how long to let simmered grains drain before pc [Re: MycoJunkie]
    #3901534 - 03/11/05 10:34 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

30 mins is longer then I like to go. You'll have to figure out your own rythym with the schedule given, can't really give advice on that.

Pay attention to the rye and make sure it appears dry before loading, I'd suggest stirring it at intervals and possibly covering it with a lid as well.



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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: how long to let simmered grains drain before pc [Re: Holydiver]
    #3901930 - 03/11/05 12:13 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Theres alot here but maybe it will give you a preperation idea to speed things up..

Heres what I do for grain prep. Its still being worked on though so if you see anything that?s wrong, unclear, or missing..feel free to let me know. It?ll probably take some editing but for now?

This is a combo of things I?ve taken from all over, but most of this I learned from Magash and then tweaked with some things from RodgerRabbit, myself, and others. Hope it helps

First thing for grain prep is deciding if you?re going to be spawning with it, or fruiting with it. If you?re fruiting with it, then I would suggest the soak/simmer method. Spawning works better when the grains are a bit drier though so a soak is enough. This write up is to deal with grain prep for fruiting. Skip to the notes if your spawning with it.

First thing to do is get the grains soaking. Rye/WBS combo is the best to use IMO. It gives the shrooms more nutes that they wouldn?t have had otherwise. Rye is also the better of the two grains when fruiting off of it IME, so this is why I do what I do. You can do as much or as little as you want, make the choice depending on how much you need and how much time you have. I have a scooper that I know, after time using it, that it makes about 2 quarts, and it holds slightly less then a pound of rye. My PC holds 10 quarts (and a pint) at a time, so I base my numbers off of this and how much time to do runs I?ll have. Generally I?ll figure 3 PC runs for 30 quarts from 15 scoops which is about 13 pounds of grain, total. This also needs to account for some verm added in later so I make it more like 13 scoops.

As I said before, I believe rye is a better grain to fruit from, which is why I use mostly rye. For 13 scoops, I?d put about 10 scoops rye into a pot that will hold 4 times the amount of dry grain as you put in (don?t put more grain in a pot than it takes to go ? way up). Then in a bowl throw in 3 scoops of WBS. Fill both with water and after 24 hours it should look something like this (these are different amounts so it will vary):


It will get pretty bubbly and pretty sour stinky smelling. That?s the whole reason for the soak, is to germinate the spores/endospores within the substrate to make them easier to kill when you PC them. You want to be careful that you don?t soak for to little, or to long. 12-24 hours is fine, I like 24 the best. In that time, the grain needs to stay FULLY submerged or it may germinate. It may anyways, and at that point you?ll need to cut back on soak time. Partially germinated grain can be used, but if it?s to much, it?s better to just toss it and take the loss then spend your time and spores.

I find that simmering my rye, and just leaving the WBS after the 24 hour soak is best. Simmering WBS can lead to too many burst kernels and after a 24 hour soak, its got a good amount of moisture in it. Don?t worry, there will be plenty of moisture in everything else! Rye will get a ton of moisture. It expands to about 3 times its dry size when it has fully absorbed all the water it can. I do not drain anything yet! At this point, I have not drained, or rinsed anything, I never bother. Add some more water to make sure the grains fully covered with an inch or two over it. You may need to add more as it cooks, absorbs, and swells. Throw it on high until it starts bubbling then turn it down to medium to keep it bubbling. Check on it every so often and keep it fully submerged, bubbling VERY lightly, until you start to see a couple burst kernels. As soon as you do, turn the water off and let it sit on the burner for about 10 minutes.

As soon as you start the rye simmering, dump the WBS into a strainer. I use 4 PVC pieces attached with corner pieces with metal screen stretched over it attached with zip ties and left with slack for stuff to sit and strain:


Strain well (small strainer multiple times into a bucket or bowl or something works, just takes way longer..large strainers are available cheap too that are smaller then mine at Wal-Mart) by spreading it out over the strainer (or if using a small one, strain for a good amount of time) and letting it drip while the rye simmers. I really suggest a large strainer if your going to be doing bulk fruiting of grain!

Now, once the rye has been simmered to perfection (see description above), dump it out, right on top of the WBS, on the strainer (again small strainer works, but sucks) and DO NOT RINSE! The steam is important! A lot of people have a hard time getting water content right and it needs to be full of moisture (which you know it is because its now 3 times its size) but look dry on the outside. If you rinse it you have to wait an hour for it to drain and people get impatient and start loading up wet kernels. So just let it steam.


Grab a spoon (it?ll be slimy and greasy and nasty) and start mixing it around or start tossing it around if you and your strainer can take the weight being tossed around. I mix it around letting it all steam off and mixing in the WBS and rye really well. It takes about 5-10 minutes to mix it all in well and all that time its straining and steaming getting rid of excess water. Try and keep it spread out as much as possible and don?t mix to quickly..mix then allow it to steam until it stops, then mix more..give it a chance to steam and drain.

Now after about 10 minutes of mixing and steaming to add in verm to make up the rest of the substrate. You only want to add about 1-2 (or 3 or 4 if you want) quarts of DRY verm. I don?t measure it, I just pour until the mix looks right. It should look kind of dry..but you don?t want a bunch of dry verm in there so pour and mix and add a little at a time..you can always add more but its hard to remove some. Once all mixed up (still steaming a bit and draining a bit):


You can load it into jars at this point and PC for at least 60 minutes at 15 PSI. I do 60 minutes but my PC is usually running about 17-18 PSI. Some people do 90 minutes though just to be sure. If you?re doing lots of this stuff, it would be beneficial to try 60 minutes on a batch and go with it if contams aren?t a problem, you?ll save yourself lots of time.

Jar lids are simple. Two small holes poked in the top. I just stab the tops of the jars with a Phillips head screwdriver. No need for huge swings, just get a pointy screw driver and drive it in quick, straight and firm. It does leave edges below the lid so if your concerned with that and want to take the time, you can pick up a punch set that will punch the holes or drill them. I never had a problem with edges since I just put the tyvek over the lid.


Going to walmart and finding the perfect spoon to fit into jars is a benefit (if you don?t already have one). I made sure it would fit regular mouthed jars too just because I bought my town out of wide mouth jars and so I have a number of regular mouthed quarts that I had to buy. You can see it in the picture with the steaming grain. Scoop and load the jars up with grain, leaving room to shake. The harder you think it is for you to shake things well, the more room you should leave yourself. I can shake the hell out of something so I load mine pretty close to the top, especially considering I usually do grain to grain transfers (adds a bit more to the jar, always take that into account if it applies to you). Then goes the lid with the two holes, a square piece of tyvek, the ring (band) and then screw on firm, but not to tight..it?ll help getting them off later if they aren?t tight when you PC them.


While the first run of jars is PCing you can continue loading up the jars for the next two runs. After you have PCed them for 60 minutes at 15 PSI (the 60 minutes only counts when the PC is at 15 PSI or over), turn off the stove and remove the PC from the burner. Don?t force cool it, just go sit and chill and smoke a bone or something. Once the pressure has dropped below 5 PSI you can open whatever valve you have and then open the PC..that usually takes about 30 minutes. Remove the jars and shake them up well USING MITS and tighten the band down (no need to prove how tight you can get it, just make sure its on good). They will look kind of slimey and a little wet, don?t worry about it unless you have standing water, which if you followed this, I don?t see how you could. Set the jars off to the side to cool till tomorrow. If you decide to force cool things at these steps, be warned that it may result in failure! Following directions exactly will get you more assured results. This doesn?t mean it doesn?t work, its just not good practices. In the long run doing huge runs like this, force cooling or not waiting long enough will hurt you more then help you.

Inoculate the next day. If you did everything right, the jars can be kept for weeks or months before use, though its best to use as quickly as possible. Then you incubate them until fully colonized and case them. You can fruit these as cakes (if made in ? pints or pints), but it doesn?t work SO hot.


NOTES
If you want to use straight WBS to fruit with, it will work fine. I suggest the 24 hour soak and strain the same way. After straining spread out well in the strainer, mix in verm until the kernels look dry-ish as described and shown above. You could also simmer it for about 10 minutes before straining and treat it as rye above.

If you are unsure of a contaminated syringe or if you get contaminations and you aren?t sure if it?s the way you make the jars, or something your doing after you PC them, keep a jar or few without putting anything in them. If its your jar preparation, these control jars will contaminate. If they don?t, then it was either your inoculation procedures, contaminated syringe (or whatever), or incubation practices (this is a rare one if the jars were made and sealed correctly during inoculation).

TYVEK is not a paper material. It is a plastic that will withstand the PC process. It will not allow contams to pass through it, but gases can. We use them to allow GAS exchange (not air exchange which is introducing fresh air during fruiting). Gas exchange is the release of excess gases that mycelium releases. No form of air flow is needed during incubation, other then these holes to be clear to allow gases to escape. Tyvek can be found free at your post office or here and they deliver for free too.

If you are just spawning to bulk, the process is much easier. I use straight WBS, soaked for 24 hours. Strain well and mix with verm if the outsides of the kernels still look a little wet. Then load into jars and PC as described above.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Offlinelaughingbuddha
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Re: how long to let simmered grains drain before pc [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3902383 - 03/11/05 01:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

hmmm...that's a load of good information. unfortunately i've already simmered my wbs and jarred em up. and they did look quite moist; on a whim, i put wet (oops) verm in the last jar because i didn't have enough wbs to fill it 2/3 full. yeah...that one's not likely to work i guess! but i'm hoping that my pc will dry them out considerably, as it has done to all of the rye batches i've prepared previously. i like your rye + wbs idea, it'll come in handy next time if things go awry this time. yet i've had the most promising results with rye by using anno's tek so i dunno. this many grains--popcorn, wbs, rye, brown rice (dunno bout the brown rice) is sort of an experiment to see which work, which contaminate, why, etc. i'll be simmering everything except for the rye (which WAS soaked overnight). but all of your advice is sound and much appreciated. i like the wbs + rye + dry verm mixture. i'll definitely try it if things don't work out. thanks brah.

one other thing. i'll be attempting to inoculate these jars with some liquid cultures i've cooked up: B+, South Africa, and Panaeolous Cyanescens Hawaiian. i hope that last one works! then i'll be casing them. this is all quite ambitious, as i have yet to get any jars to colonize! wish me luck guys--i'll need it.


--------------------
"The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I meditate, the more certain I am that I know nothing." -Voltaire


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: how long to let simmered grains drain before pc [Re: laughingbuddha]
    #3902438 - 03/11/05 01:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I currently have Pan Cyans germinating off the jars that were prepared during some of those pictures...started from a spore syringe and took a bit, but they finally started. Only a quart and a half but g2g transfers are easy enough. I'm giddy :smile: Good luck with yours!


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleKillerPicklez
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Re: how long to let simmered grains drain before pc [Re: scatmanrav] * 1
    #10965678 - 08/30/09 01:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:
Theres alot here but maybe it will give you a preperation idea to speed things up..

Heres what I do for grain prep. Its still being worked on though so if you see anything that?s wrong, unclear, or missing..feel free to let me know. It?ll probably take some editing but for now?

This is a combo of things I?ve taken from all over, but most of this I learned from Magash and then tweaked with some things from RodgerRabbit, myself, and others. Hope it helps

First thing for grain prep is deciding if you?re going to be spawning with it, or fruiting with it. If you?re fruiting with it, then I would suggest the soak/simmer method. Spawning works better when the grains are a bit drier though so a soak is enough. This write up is to deal with grain prep for fruiting. Skip to the notes if your spawning with it.

First thing to do is get the grains soaking. Rye/WBS combo is the best to use IMO. It gives the shrooms more nutes that they wouldn?t have had otherwise. Rye is also the better of the two grains when fruiting off of it IME, so this is why I do what I do. You can do as much or as little as you want, make the choice depending on how much you need and how much time you have. I have a scooper that I know, after time using it, that it makes about 2 quarts, and it holds slightly less then a pound of rye. My PC holds 10 quarts (and a pint) at a time, so I base my numbers off of this and how much time to do runs I?ll have. Generally I?ll figure 3 PC runs for 30 quarts from 15 scoops which is about 13 pounds of grain, total. This also needs to account for some verm added in later so I make it more like 13 scoops.

As I said before, I believe rye is a better grain to fruit from, which is why I use mostly rye. For 13 scoops, I?d put about 10 scoops rye into a pot that will hold 4 times the amount of dry grain as you put in (don?t put more grain in a pot than it takes to go ? way up). Then in a bowl throw in 3 scoops of WBS. Fill both with water and after 24 hours it should look something like this (these are different amounts so it will vary):


It will get pretty bubbly and pretty sour stinky smelling. That?s the whole reason for the soak, is to germinate the spores/endospores within the substrate to make them easier to kill when you PC them. You want to be careful that you don?t soak for to little, or to long. 12-24 hours is fine, I like 24 the best. In that time, the grain needs to stay FULLY submerged or it may germinate. It may anyways, and at that point you?ll need to cut back on soak time. Partially germinated grain can be used, but if it?s to much, it?s better to just toss it and take the loss then spend your time and spores.

I find that simmering my rye, and just leaving the WBS after the 24 hour soak is best. Simmering WBS can lead to too many burst kernels and after a 24 hour soak, its got a good amount of moisture in it. Don?t worry, there will be plenty of moisture in everything else! Rye will get a ton of moisture. It expands to about 3 times its dry size when it has fully absorbed all the water it can. I do not drain anything yet! At this point, I have not drained, or rinsed anything, I never bother. Add some more water to make sure the grains fully covered with an inch or two over it. You may need to add more as it cooks, absorbs, and swells. Throw it on high until it starts bubbling then turn it down to medium to keep it bubbling. Check on it every so often and keep it fully submerged, bubbling VERY lightly, until you start to see a couple burst kernels. As soon as you do, turn the water off and let it sit on the burner for about 10 minutes.

As soon as you start the rye simmering, dump the WBS into a strainer. I use 4 PVC pieces attached with corner pieces with metal screen stretched over it attached with zip ties and left with slack for stuff to sit and strain:


Strain well (small strainer multiple times into a bucket or bowl or something works, just takes way longer..large strainers are available cheap too that are smaller then mine at Wal-Mart) by spreading it out over the strainer (or if using a small one, strain for a good amount of time) and letting it drip while the rye simmers. I really suggest a large strainer if your going to be doing bulk fruiting of grain!

Now, once the rye has been simmered to perfection (see description above), dump it out, right on top of the WBS, on the strainer (again small strainer works, but sucks) and DO NOT RINSE! The steam is important! A lot of people have a hard time getting water content right and it needs to be full of moisture (which you know it is because its now 3 times its size) but look dry on the outside. If you rinse it you have to wait an hour for it to drain and people get impatient and start loading up wet kernels. So just let it steam.


Grab a spoon (it?ll be slimy and greasy and nasty) and start mixing it around or start tossing it around if you and your strainer can take the weight being tossed around. I mix it around letting it all steam off and mixing in the WBS and rye really well. It takes about 5-10 minutes to mix it all in well and all that time its straining and steaming getting rid of excess water. Try and keep it spread out as much as possible and don?t mix to quickly..mix then allow it to steam until it stops, then mix more..give it a chance to steam and drain.

Now after about 10 minutes of mixing and steaming to add in verm to make up the rest of the substrate. You only want to add about 1-2 (or 3 or 4 if you want) quarts of DRY verm. I don?t measure it, I just pour until the mix looks right. It should look kind of dry..but you don?t want a bunch of dry verm in there so pour and mix and add a little at a time..you can always add more but its hard to remove some. Once all mixed up (still steaming a bit and draining a bit):


You can load it into jars at this point and PC for at least 60 minutes at 15 PSI. I do 60 minutes but my PC is usually running about 17-18 PSI. Some people do 90 minutes though just to be sure. If you?re doing lots of this stuff, it would be beneficial to try 60 minutes on a batch and go with it if contams aren?t a problem, you?ll save yourself lots of time.

Jar lids are simple. Two small holes poked in the top. I just stab the tops of the jars with a Phillips head screwdriver. No need for huge swings, just get a pointy screw driver and drive it in quick, straight and firm. It does leave edges below the lid so if your concerned with that and want to take the time, you can pick up a punch set that will punch the holes or drill them. I never had a problem with edges since I just put the tyvek over the lid.


Going to walmart and finding the perfect spoon to fit into jars is a benefit (if you don?t already have one). I made sure it would fit regular mouthed jars too just because I bought my town out of wide mouth jars and so I have a number of regular mouthed quarts that I had to buy. You can see it in the picture with the steaming grain. Scoop and load the jars up with grain, leaving room to shake. The harder you think it is for you to shake things well, the more room you should leave yourself. I can shake the hell out of something so I load mine pretty close to the top, especially considering I usually do grain to grain transfers (adds a bit more to the jar, always take that into account if it applies to you). Then goes the lid with the two holes, a square piece of tyvek, the ring (band) and then screw on firm, but not to tight..it?ll help getting them off later if they aren?t tight when you PC them.


While the first run of jars is PCing you can continue loading up the jars for the next two runs. After you have PCed them for 60 minutes at 15 PSI (the 60 minutes only counts when the PC is at 15 PSI or over), turn off the stove and remove the PC from the burner. Don?t force cool it, just go sit and chill and smoke a bone or something. Once the pressure has dropped below 5 PSI you can open whatever valve you have and then open the PC..that usually takes about 30 minutes. Remove the jars and shake them up well USING MITS and tighten the band down (no need to prove how tight you can get it, just make sure its on good). They will look kind of slimey and a little wet, don?t worry about it unless you have standing water, which if you followed this, I don?t see how you could. Set the jars off to the side to cool till tomorrow. If you decide to force cool things at these steps, be warned that it may result in failure! Following directions exactly will get you more assured results. This doesn?t mean it doesn?t work, its just not good practices. In the long run doing huge runs like this, force cooling or not waiting long enough will hurt you more then help you.

Inoculate the next day. If you did everything right, the jars can be kept for weeks or months before use, though its best to use as quickly as possible. Then you incubate them until fully colonized and case them. You can fruit these as cakes (if made in ? pints or pints), but it doesn?t work SO hot.


NOTES
If you want to use straight WBS to fruit with, it will work fine. I suggest the 24 hour soak and strain the same way. After straining spread out well in the strainer, mix in verm until the kernels look dry-ish as described and shown above. You could also simmer it for about 10 minutes before straining and treat it as rye above.

If you are unsure of a contaminated syringe or if you get contaminations and you aren?t sure if it?s the way you make the jars, or something your doing after you PC them, keep a jar or few without putting anything in them. If its your jar preparation, these control jars will contaminate. If they don?t, then it was either your inoculation procedures, contaminated syringe (or whatever), or incubation practices (this is a rare one if the jars were made and sealed correctly during inoculation).

TYVEK is not a paper material. It is a plastic that will withstand the PC process. It will not allow contams to pass through it, but gases can. We use them to allow GAS exchange (not air exchange which is introducing fresh air during fruiting). Gas exchange is the release of excess gases that mycelium releases. No form of air flow is needed during incubation, other then these holes to be clear to allow gases to escape. Tyvek can be found free at your post office or here and they deliver for free too.

If you are just spawning to bulk, the process is much easier. I use straight WBS, soaked for 24 hours. Strain well and mix with verm if the outsides of the kernels still look a little wet. Then load into jars and PC as described above.




This thread is over 4 years old but I thought it contained a lot of good information


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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: how long to let simmered grains drain before pc [Re: KillerPicklez]
    #10965747 - 08/30/09 01:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yep, that's what the search function is for.

Anyhow, a word of warning to anyone using this method for the strainer. My screen tore all the way around at each point where a zip-tie was placed. So perhaps it is best to search for another way of holding up the screen.


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OfflineRenaissanceMaster
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Re: how long to let simmered grains drain before pc [Re: Shroominit]
    #21465673 - 03/27/15 03:46 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroominit said:
Yep, that's what the search function is for.

Anyhow, a word of warning to anyone using this method for the strainer. My screen tore all the way around at each point where a zip-tie was placed. So perhaps it is best to search for another way of holding up the screen.




use wood, wrap it around 2 corners, use plastic cap roofing nails, nail one side first, hold it tight, nail other side and then both ends

you can buy a pre assembled metal screens at the hardware super store i believe, but the screen frames tend to twist so if you make your own try to align the grid as best as you possibly can and pull it as tight as you can without breaking it


Edited by RenaissanceMaster (03/27/15 03:47 PM)


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Offlinebackyardmagic
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Re: how long to let simmered grains drain before pc [Re: RenaissanceMaster]
    #21465942 - 03/27/15 05:10 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)


i personally just Cook brown rice by the bags instructions and jar them up.. Then I pressure cook & inoculate.. I wish the shroomery made this official cuz normal cooked brown rice isn't wet and it colonizes perfectly


--------------------


Edited by backyardmagic (03/27/15 05:13 PM)


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OfflineStromrider
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Re: how long to let simmered grains drain before pc [Re: backyardmagic]
    #21465983 - 03/27/15 05:21 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

:oldthread:


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* Want as many Opinions on Soaking and Simmering Rye as possible. River77 1,079 12 07/21/09 12:36 PM
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* Preparing grain without a pressure cooker The FUnGal FiEnD 1,260 12 02/22/03 09:02 AM
by The FUnGal FiEnD
* any one try oats or barly grain mmmmush 489 5 11/06/05 01:46 PM
by HyphalTryptamin
* Using my pressure cooker to soak and boil my grains?
( 1 2 3 all )
DeadPhan 2,308 52 11/09/12 01:02 AM
by Trippy_Smurf
* Lightly simmering you GRAIN instead of soaking overnight.... YellowSubmarine 1,110 19 09/19/03 09:28 AM
by tak
* pc'ing, inoculating and fruiting in same container? amoment 367 3 12/22/07 12:47 AM
by thedefone

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