ShiroiTora said:

I agree, people who abuse psychedelics for spirituality irritate me. I mean it's like they are first and foremost BOMB-ASS drugs They are legit better than any stimulants/depressants I have ever taken, and people should acknowledge that too.

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Icon said:

They don't have to be profound tools or practices either. Sometimes just heightening your senses and having a good time is enough. My most memorable appreciations of vision, food, music, texture, humor, sex, etc. have all been on psychedelics. Even if it's something as meaningless as running your fingers across your clothing and enjoying the sensation. It doesn't have to all be a lesson.

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TheStallionMang said:

It's a shortcut in the same way as using a hammer instead of your hands to drive a nail

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Couldn't have said it better myself

Neurotech said:

Or how about proven telepathy on psychedelics that made you realize that you are not as isolated a self as you once thought? (By proven I mean confirmed by independent verification). Knowing we are all connected changes behavior positively.

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TheStallionMang said:

I've got someone in my life that has a real hard time with facing even the smallest wrongs they do.  Although they do a lot of things that make dealing with them impossible, they believe they do nothing wrong and make every excuse possible for themselves instead of actually just dealing with the issue.  They love to create unnecessary problems and stir shit up then pretend to be the victim if anything is said about their behavior.
They also somehow believe themselves to be an enlightened person and also think taking shrooms to help with anything is cheating.

I believe that this person has to do a lot of mental gymnastics to keep up the appearance of feeling like a really awesome person and they know the shrooms are gonna show em things they have work very hard to stop from thinking about.  In other words, I believe they know their cognitive dissonance would make for a pretty harsh trip

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TheStallionMang said:

It's a shortcut in the same way as using a hammer instead of your hands to drive a nail

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redgreenvines said:

I made time for it, and still make time for it.
Also I use psychedelics, each has a different nature (meditation vs psychedelics), but both do work with something like the dream state.

neither is a short cut for the other, however, drugs will drop you into a dream-like state fairly reliably - and block you from sober activity until finished, while meditation is not always reliable or successful - though it will not interfere with sober activity. i.e. it does not make you stoned.

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redgreenvines said:

I made time for it, and still make time for it.
Also I use psychedelics, each has a different nature (meditation vs psychedelics), but both do work with something like the dream state.

neither is a short cut for the other, however, drugs will drop you into a dream-like state fairly reliably - and block you from sober activity until finished, while meditation is not always reliable or successful - though it will not interfere with sober activity. i.e. it does not make you stoned.

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Sabnock said:

Shit i hear that lol, reminds me a lot of my ex, except she will take some mushrooms or LSD rarely, but always skimps on dosage and never wants to go higher because she knows she'll have to face her shit, she just wants to have a "good time" without facing herself.

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redgreenvines said:

but realistically, you have spent your whole life getting to the realization at hand, and a whole life is not a short cut, even though it seems very short, no matter how old you get.

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Sabnock said:

All i really do is take my Aya, turn out the lights, put on headphones and listen to music while laying in bed, focused inwards and on the music.

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orphee said:

redgreenvines said:

but realistically, you have spent your whole life getting to the realization at hand, and a whole life is not a short cut, even though it seems very short, no matter how old you get.

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...have you ever had your wisdom teeth pulled?

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orphee said:

Sabnock said:

All i really do is take my Aya, turn out the lights, put on headphones and listen to music while laying in bed, focused inwards and on the music.

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veering off a little bit, in the late 90s my friend gave me his used pair of AKG K240 DF studio monitor headphones, i had to replace them last year (amateur soldering and 15 years old rubber band wasn't cutting it anymore) i got the K240 mkII... they're okay...

what make/model you use?

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redgreenvines said:

yeah (down to 11 per side), too much ehh.

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well, you sound like a full set

Sabnock said:

I'm rather poor lol, so i just get what i can get, the last few years i've been using these Koss UR20's i got on amazon, they sound alright to me and have some decent bass but on my computer at least i do have to adjust my equalizer to get things sounding a bit better, also i have to bend/shape them a little bit so they're cling to my head more. I do need to get me some better one's at some point, i just need something that doesn't cost too much, like maybe something within the 40 to 60 to 80 dollar range possibly.

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Northerner said:

Tink, tink, tink...

"Hello and thank you for coming to my party, I'd just like to take this opportunity to tell everyone how much I love drugs."

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Mostly Lucid said:

Agreed. 
As somebody with a full time job and responsibilities as well (like most here I am sure) - I enjoy the escape that the ability to take a 'trip' with my wife while never leaving home.  The fact that there is no hangover, the next morning has a nice warm afterglow (remember those on booze?? not...LOL) and it all just feels right to me.  We are for sure doing it as a replacement to other more destructive habits and some criticize that, but to me it is what works for us right now.

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ShiroiTora said:

Lots of posts recently about psychedelics which are in some way a shortcut to being happy/enlightened/normal(?). How could you possibly think this having tried it?

I have been taking psychedelics for about 4 years now, and I am only now starting to figure out how to actually use them to better my life in a meaningful way. What kind of "shortcut" takes multiple years to figure out the basics of? Compared to yoga it is extremely difficult, as within weeks of starting yoga I was already a more patient, focused, connected(not to mention fit) and disciplined person, with less than a tenth of the effort I put into psychedelics(considering research, journalling, abstaining completely from TV etc).

I think people confuse the connectedness they feel on psychedelics with true connection. How I see psychedelics, they are a map. Even if you feel like you attain samadhi or satori, it is just like looking at a photo of the grand canyon. Yes it's beauty may overwhelm you even though it is only a photo, but it remains just a photo. Psychedelics remain just a map. Everything you feel on psychedelics is indeed obtainable, but hard fucking work is required.

Honestly statements like these are so cringe, like would you really call yourself a "traveler" if you only read national geographic but stay in your home town? Is national geographic a "shortcut" to "seeing the world", and have you REALLY seen the world by reading it?

But maybe I'm just a prick, maybe you guys have actual examples for me, so please let me know if and how psychedelics have been a shortcut for you in your own personal life. I look forward to reading these.

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Quote:

Lots of posts recently about psychedelics which are in some way a shortcut to being happy/enlightened/normal(?). How could you possibly think this having tried it?

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I think talking about "spiritual insights" on psychedelics is more realistic. Psychedelics tend to put you in a headspace where concepts from Buddhism (as an example) make more sense. In this way they can put people on a spiritual path, meaning that psychedelics become a sort of gateway into spirituality, a beginning point rather than a shortcut to enlightment.



Personally I wouldn't describe myself as a "spiritual" person exactly, and that's not my reason for taking psychedelics, but my mushroom experiences have made me more open to the ideas of Buddhism and other spiritual and religious concepts.

The idea of psychedelics being a shortcut to enlightment is probably connected to their ability to produce very powerful mystical experiences. It's not unreasonable to argue that these involve nondual awareness of some variety, but even if you take Leary's ideas seriously about reaching an intermediate state of consciousness that resembles the concept of death from Tibetan Buddhism, that's quite a different kettle of fish from reaching a permanently enlighted state in sober reality during your waking life.



I would think of a mystical experience as a profound event, a glimpse, a snapshot of something amazing rather than a destination that can be reached in this life. To me they seem more like a glimpse of an afterlife, something beyond everyday reality, not so much a template for a way of being in this world. On the other hand, spiritual practice is more of an ongoing process that is more grounded and has more practical value in everyday life.

I watched this video recently that seems to have a reasonable take on this question:

Psychedelic Enlightenment Vs. Natural Enlightenment | Vishuddha Das

Northerner said:

Tink, tink, tink...

"Hello and thank you for coming to my party, I'd just like to take this opportunity to tell everyone how much I love drugs."

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Aldebaran said:

Quote:

Lots of posts recently about psychedelics which are in some way a shortcut to being happy/enlightened/normal(?)...
Psychedelic Enlightenment Vs. Natural Enlightenment | Vishuddha Das

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redgreenvines said:

this video is annoying.
the guy in it begins by saying that he is not enlightened, and later espouses several assertions about what enlightenment is.
(so how would he know, why is he selling this idea?)
Also his obsession with ego based theories of psychedelics and of enlightenment is too rigid.
but of course
he is not enlightened.
then he says that psychedelic enlightenment is temporary but the other means of enlightenment (i.e. by meditation) are permanent.
which of course he knows but since he is not enlightened why would we believe him.
I like his eyes, but I don't like his story.

Aldebaran said:

Quote:

Lots of posts recently about psychedelics which are in some way a shortcut to being happy/enlightened/normal(?)...
Psychedelic Enlightenment Vs. Natural Enlightenment | Vishuddha Das

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He's just selling what you hope to espouse

Neurotech said:

Because people can have experiences for several hours that would otherwise be unattainable to most people without years of spiritual practice. These include awareness of the interconnectedness of all living things, a feeling of oneness with all things, the experience of seeing or feeling God. Some might say it’s all in your head, but then how do you know that spiritual experiences and enlightenment aren’t all in your head? I happen to believe everything in your head is the same as everything outside of your head.

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redgreenvines said:

among 80billion neurons in our brains, some 20 billion of them each have ~100,000 connections with other neurons. when neurons fire at the same time those connections become the impressions of experiences and are recoverable as memory via perceptive reflexes.

thinking that everything is one is a direct appreciation of connectivity being at the root of consciousness.

it is intuitive and correct in a few ways, but generally (except for this view of neural interconnection - and in some quantum gravity way) it does not make sense if you think it through logically, or if you try to illustrate it by painting everything white (which many acid heads have tried to do to show their enlightenment).

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Man, RGB I may not always agree with everything you say, but comments like these make me wish I could chat with you in person about philosophy & psychology.

I appreciate your conversational style which marries both evidence/materialism with a healthy level of intuition. For the most part you are very level-headed, but I'll bet we're both nut cases in a sense, simultaneously.

Anyways off-topic but just wanted to share some love

Rhizomorph said:

...

Anyways off-topic but just wanted to share some love

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Shroomsandstuff said:

If they help speed up any sort of progress, even if still takes years of work, the term "shortcut" would be accurate, according to the basic definitions of the word.

shortcut (n):
1. a shorter alternative route
2. an accelerated way of doing or achieving something

Do you not find it to be the case that psychedelics can help speed up one's personal growth, the process of getting through depression or other mental health issues, or anything else like that?

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