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OfflineLearyfanS
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Psychedelics and enlightenment * 1
    #492885 - 12/16/01 01:15 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

This post is very similar to Kids post about psychedelics and enlightenment. The reason I started a new thread is because I think I have something very important to say.

Some people think that psychedelic drugs are a tool for enlightenment.

Some people do not think that. People who don't think psychedelic drugs are a tool for enlightenment have some convincing arguements, but I think I have answers to those arguements. Here are some of their arguements, and my response.

"People thought psychedelics were the answer to enlightenment in the 60's, but it didn't work". I think the reason why it "didn't work" was because the government and the government controlled media simply said......"it didn't work". The government made LSD illegal on 10-6-66(666) as well as the others by the end of the 60's, stopped LSD research, hassled psychedelic enthusiasts, destroyed past research and stopped future reseach in the field. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy. They MADE it not work, then said...."see...that shit didn't work".

"Look at all the hippies who have tripped 300 times. They aren't enlightened." Well psychedelic drugs are a tool or a vehicle like any other. Take cars for instance. Just because you and your friends have never driven to Florida, doesn't mean that you can't drive to Florida with a car.

"Look at all the people who have gotten fucked up and destroyed their lives" Just because people get in car wrecks doesn't mean that cars aren't good transportation. People like Timothy Leary, Richard Alpert, Ralph Metzner, Aldous Huxley and Gerald Heard(sp) were begining to learn how to use these very complex states of conciousness, and once their abiltity to continue that research was ended, people who use these drugs were ON THIER OWN.

"Psychedelics just make you think you're enlightened, but once it's over, it's over"That's bullshit. What they are is a PREVIEW of enlightenment. They take away your "filter of conditioning"  that we all have for a short while and show you life in a new way. You should not expect anyone to be automatically enlightened. It's a long process, and these drugs HELP you. They are not instant enlightenment. You may need to "refresh" yourself.

"The hippies in the 60's started to fuck up their lives when they started to use harder drugs" Oh well. To make an omlet, you have to break a few eggs. Eventually people would realize which drugs will help and which drugs can hurt. Also, I think it would have been worth it to lose those people. So what if 1 out of 10 heads turns into a heroin addict. If peace and love could have spread throughout the world, then BILLIONS of lives would be saved in the long run.

"People who claim to be 'peace and lovenicks' don't act enlightened sometimes"Yeah? Well guess what, these people are HUMAN. These drugs do NOT offer INSTANT enlightenment. We are human, and have weaknesses. Only someone with Buddah conciousness could stop themselves from slipping up now and again.

"People who were 'on the psychedelic bus'(so to speak) in the 60's, later abandoned that philosophy. This is evendence that it doesn't work"Nope. These people got confused once they were told that 'it didn't work', plain and simple. Also, it was probably too hard for them to continue with this line of thinking and living once it fell out of popularity.

I could go on and on with this.

If you were in the middle of building a house, and the government stopped you before you could finish, you can't say that houses can't be built.


GIMMIE SHELTER!!!!!!!!













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Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:39 PM)


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #492973 - 12/16/01 02:48 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I'm first curious to hear you definition of Enlightenment.

In my post I made no attempt to try and say whether Enlightenment was possible, I was just interpreting the cultural symbols surrounding it.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #493048 - 12/16/01 04:04 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Oh I wasn't saying that you said that. I was responding mostly to the people who responded to your post, and to all kinds of reasons people use to say psychedelics don't open the doors of perception.

Enlightenment is a hard word to define. I think enlightenment is when one becomes aware of a higher truth and a higher goal for life.

What that truth is,  varies from person to person, but the overall basis for enlightenment for ME, is that

We are all one with God

There is no hell or devil

Love is all there is

If you want to despute any of those ideas, start a new thread, but I do think people can access general states of enlightenment by removing thier "filter of conditioning" for a short while by using psychedelic drugs.

I believe that the crackdown on psychedelic drugs is possibly the biggest conspiracy in the history of mankind. In the 60's they almost woke everyone up. Now those doors are shut to most people.

Quite sad.













Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:44 PM)


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #494581 - 12/18/01 06:02 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

You gotta be kidding me. This post is gold.

I must be out of my fucking mind or something. How come i'm the only one who this makes any sense to?












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Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:45 PM)


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #494784 - 12/18/01 11:57 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

"I must be out of my fucking mind or something. How come i'm the only one who this makes any sense to?"

Nah man, I agree with you. Read my posts in kid's psychedelics and enlightenment thread. I said a lot of the same shit that you're saying. By the way, I've also read "Storming Heaven," and I learned a shitload from that book. Great stuff. Thing is, apparently, that you and I have done our research and read up on the psychedelic literature. We can benefit from the experimentation and wisdom of people like Huxley, Heard, Metzner, Leary, McKenna (I think he's great, no matter what Murple says)?


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OfflineFood
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #495685 - 12/19/01 06:12 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

I almost totally agree with you - and I must say that I think that one who is not enlightened would not be able to define enlightnenment or understand it meaning .

Your post makes alot of sense to me but I dont have much time to post at the moment GTG I'll post on this again later .


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--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Food]
    #496074 - 12/19/01 03:34 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

> I almost totally agree with you - and I must say that I think that one who is not enlightened would not be able to define enlightnenment or understand it meaning .

So, basically you can't define a club until you're in it? (an analogy would be that the Free Masons could not be definied except only by their members). What an exclusive club the Enlightened ones belong to. I guess the lost eastern esoterica is to remain esoteric, but transfered to the Western psychedelia.


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Offlineinformer
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #496113 - 12/19/01 04:25 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

is your ego to big to post this post where the discussion started ?


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #496823 - 12/20/01 09:31 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

alienmindscape: Great that you've read Storming Heaven. That book the the key to understanding this whole situation.

food: Thank you for the compliment, but Kid is right, you don't have to be a chicken to know what an egg is. I don't want this post to start to deviate into a debate about that.

informer: No, my ego isn't too big. This post deserved it's own thread. The point was slightly different than Kids thread, and important enough that I didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle on Kids thread, and have his thread deviate into what this thread is supposed to be. I couldn't think of anything else to call it, so it looks almost identical as well.












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Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:46 PM)


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OfflineD_Tox
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #497068 - 12/20/01 03:15 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

take a psychedelic and live for a night
become enlightened and live for your life


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D_Tox

to understand other people….to be aware
to understand animals….to be a decent person
to understand plants….. to be a refined individual
to understand the mushroom…to be enlightened


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OfflineRoger_irrelevant
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment *DELETED* [Re: D_Tox]
    #497174 - 12/20/01 05:38 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Roger_irrelevant

Reason for deletion: archive



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We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams...


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OfflineAngelina
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #498074 - 12/21/01 05:22 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

What a great post. I disagree with your definition of enlightenment, as I see battles between good and evil all around me. However, I think that only supports your ideas, as "enlightenment" is a very personal thing, and it means different things to different people. I've never tried shrooms (I'm here because I'm curious), but I know my entire life has changed since I first tried exstasy almost a year ago. Using cerain drugs seems to plug you into the universe, and it doesn't dissolve once sobriety hits; you can hold onto it. (FYI, I don't use x in the typical manner, at a club dancing all night; for me it's a small group of close friends, comfortable surroundings, and an opening up to the universe and the truth).


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Roger_irrelevant]
    #501570 - 12/26/01 12:56 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Roger: I'm not sure if i've said it in THIS thread here, but I have said that psychedelics are instant enlightenment, however they are NOT permanent enlightenment most of the time.

D tox: I am trying to inch my way towards some sort of enlightenment through psychedelics. I've made it a LONG way to bud, with the help of the "Conversations with God" book series.

Angelina: Take a look at my post again. I did say "the overall basis for enlightenment for ME, is". It's a very hard word to define. It IS different for everyone. Very true. May I ask which psychedelics you've used besides ecstacy? I think that is a good start. It introduces you to states of mind like that. It makes me feel good to know that someone actually has started on the road you're on because of ecstacy because it's a drug that many people are able to use without even changing slightly. I think you REALLY SHOULD grow shrooms now. Shrooms have done so much for me. I can't put into words how important they've been to my emotional growth and understanding. I've only recently begun growing my own, so hopefully i'll be able to put it into better words later. Also, they're a WHOLE lot healthier than X. I think it's time you graduate from that shit.













Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:47 PM)


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OfflineXyrico
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #504415 - 12/29/01 10:39 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Drugs merely create an illusion of enlightenment; they do not even give a 'taste' of it. What they show is an altered state of mind, the exact same reality only through slightly different eyes. They are a product of our society's consumerist instant-gratification principles.

"Take this pill and you'll feel just like Buddha. Take two and you'll talk face-to-face with God."

People who claim they use drugs as a spiritual cataclyst are first and foremost lying to themselves. In truth, some are just incapable of living the spiritual path-- thus they turn to outside means as a sort of last-ditch effort. Others are genuinely intersted in transcending their everyday condition, yet are mistakingly led to believe that drugs can accelerate or enhance this process. Drugs, just like money and cars, are material objects, and thus impermanent. It is a dubious thing indeed, to use such mundane worldly things to attain a real higher state of consciousness.

It's just an illusion created by your mind in response to an outside substance, nothing more. The biggest deception is not the hallucinations. It is the belief that these hallucinations hold anything of significance. Those who believe that their lives have been enhanced by drugs in any sort of meaningful way are living a lie, plain and simple. You're welcome to continue living this lie. By all means, go ahead. A good analogy would be schizophrenia-- a mental patient's convictions hold all the importance in the world to him, yet to him alone. And nobody ever labels schizophrenics as 'enlightened'.

You'll learn just as much from a thousand acid trips, as from one. If you're truly wise, the most important thing you'll learn is that it's just a very complicated version of an electrode attached to the pleasure centres of your brain. It shows you exactly what you need to see to make your life seem happy, fulfilling, enlightened, transcended, whatever you want to call it. But it's really just a wire jammed into your skull, a product of the same reality which you seem so intent to break free from.


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OfflineFood
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Xyrico]
    #504638 - 12/30/01 06:02 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting post Xyrico but I am afraid that I must heartily disagree with you .

1) First of all I would like to say to you that categorizing drugs as physical things in the same way as you might a peice of wood is foolish as you dont seem to realise that every naturally occuring feeling you have ever felt is directly linked to the chemical composition and physical structure and state of your brain (I am not saying that these are the only causes - just some of them). And directly comparing drugs to cars is so unbeleivable fool hardy(in my view ) that it actually serves to annoy me .
I have personally never felt as though I have become enlightened at any one point in my life (on drugs or not) and I have tripped many times before and spent much time in forcibly altered states of consciousness .
I have however created many USEFUL theories about things to do with life whilst under the power of illegal drugs .
And I will not just claim to have these theories without backing myself up . If you want I will explain my answer to a question I pondered once whilst watching my bathroom change shape and turn into another form : the question was : What is the fundamental difference between something which is alive and something which is not alive ?

I have an exact answer - think about it yourself - what is it that differentiates between the two ?

You also say that those who believe that their lives have been enhanced by drugs in any sort of meaningful way are living a lie, plain and simple .
Well listen to this little tale then - I was once a materialistic positivist who thought that all things were logically explainable and I spent considerable time pondering the nature of reality from a "purely logical thought pattern" point of view .
And I became dissollusioned with my ideas as they were based on pure logic and any logical argument requires an asumption of some sort, yet I would always question the validity of the assumption - so I therefore could never come to a complete conclusion and became upset that I could not logically explain the reason for my existence .

Then I tripped on magic mushrooms for the first time and couldnt think of anything but the meaningfulness of life itself - and whilst this was for me at the time a terrifying experience of enormous proportions it caused me to begin to realise the error of my way in terms of reasoning and have since abandoned my belief in the purely logical, chemical explanation for consciousness and have left behind this depressing existence as a materialist who could not understand love .
And consequently I am much happier and not obsessed with trying to understand everything right now .

I would certainly say that that is an improvement and that the shrooms worked as a direct cause of change in my thinking patterns in a positive way .

How do you reply to that ?


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--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-


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OfflineFood
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #504643 - 12/30/01 06:14 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to Kid: I am not saying that these people are in some sort of club . And I myself do not claim to be enlightened - neither am I trying to insult anyone who does not know EXACTLY what it is to be enlightened .
Can YOU define it ? - Being precise, exact, and perfectly accurate . ??


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--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #504647 - 12/30/01 06:23 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

If one did a survey, I would guess that the people that believe drugs are a path to enlightenment would be significantly younger than those who don't. Why? Experience and disillusionment.

I think the reason why it "didn't work" was because the government and the government controlled media simply said......"it didn't work".
You make some valid points, but this is not one of them. It didn't work (if in fact it is possible) because the tools were not used in the right social context. Hence, when the drugs wore off, they were just as selfish and petty as before.

The hippies were not much different than today's younger generation. They basically tripped to escape or party and to rebel against authority.

Your car analogies are evidence of a deep-thinking, searching mind. However, an analogy is not necessarily a truth and driving really has nothing in common with tripping. When travelling one usually has a destination in mind, with supplies and a map and a large degree of control. Tripping is more of a "let's see what happens" type of experience" where control is minimal and destination is unknown.

These people got confused once they were told that 'it didn't work', plain and simple. Also, it was probably too hard for them to continue with this line of thinking and living once it fell out of popularity.
Again, like your first point, I believe that you are mistaken. It had absolutely nothing to do wth media manipulation. What generally happened was that many people became parents and found that exploring the nether-world did not pay the bills. The call of everyday reality became much stronger. Of course the fear of prison (an artificial by-product of psychedelic usage) increases dramatically when on has to place others before oneself.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Xyrico]
    #504750 - 12/30/01 11:12 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Alright, a challenge. Cool.

I'll quote you Xyrico, and then respond:

Drugs merely create an illusion of enlightenment

This a matter of opinion, just like my opinion that they do provide temporary enlightenment which can put one ON THE ROAD to enlightenment

They are a product of our society's consumerist
  instant-gratification principles.


True. I'm a regular American kid,  23 years old, and I grew up like all people my age, with food from a microwave, TV & home video games and all sorts of instant gradificational products. The only way you're going to wake up a regular American kid who only cares about who won last nights game and whats on TV is through an instant gradificational enlightenment tool. There's no way I could be where I am at through books and teachers. I would not have gone for that shit. There's no way I could have seen any benifit in being enlightened(which I DO NOT claim to be yet).

People who claim they use drugs as a spiritual cataclyst are first and foremost lying to themselves

No, some are lying, some are real about it, and some are real but don't know how to explain this extremely complicated subject(who can really??)

In truth, some are just
  incapable of living the spiritual path-- thus they turn to outside means as a sort of last-ditch effort


This could be true for some people. It is true in my case. I hated life because I could not understand why it's worth going through all of the hell you have to go through. In a last ditch effort, I started to smoke pot, read books like "Conversations with God", and take psychedelics which gave my life meaning.

Food did most of the replying for the rest of your post, most of which is just personal opinon as is mine. Food made a good point. Everything that happens to us is the result of a chemical reaction.

If I say "I'm in love with that girl", you can't say "no, it's not love, it's the result of a natural drug in your brain called PEA which does blah blah blah". One chemical reaction is no less valid than another.













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Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:48 PM)


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #504767 - 12/30/01 11:58 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Now i'll reply to Swami(you really should change your name to "Devils Advocate" for the shroomery :wink:)

It didn't work (if in fact it is possible) because the tools were not

  used in the right social context. Hence, when the drugs wore off, they were just as selfish and petty as before.


I agree. This was a big part of the problem, but police and governent harassment also threw a BIG monkey wrench in the gears as well.

The hippies were not much different than today's younger generation. They basically tripped to escape or party and to rebel against authority.

I don't think so at all. When psychedelics were "new" in the 60's. Most of the people who used them at first were using them for personal and spritual enlightnment tools. They regonized their potential for opening the doors of perception, and seeing past what was becoming an increasingly "plastic" world.

Now todays generation has grown up with a preconcieved notion about these drugs, that they make you act "crazy", and that they were something the flower children "mistakenly" thought was a tool of enlightenment, as if it's a foregone conclusion that they don't really do anything but make you think crazy thoughts and kill yourself.

Tripping is more of a "let's see what happens" type of experience" where control is minimal and destination is unknown.

For some yes, but for me, I had a pretty concrete theory of what life is about by reading the "Converstions" series, and some other stuff, so I did have a road map. To a certain degree you are right though, it's very unpredictable, but if you have a fairly solid life paradigm, you can always keep your eye on the prize and be able to understand what's going on a little better.

It(the "failing" of flower power) had absolutely nothing to do wth media manipulation

No it had a lot to do with that. The media jumped at any fucking chance they could to give psychedelics a bad name. They made propaganda films, inundated the public with stories about "The Dark Side of Hippy Life", the biggest of which was the Charles Manson case. That's where the culture got a REALLY BAD name from. They put ol' Charlie's face on the TV in magazines etc etc in order to associate LSD with murder and crime, and make the "streight people" more and more weary of this unfamiliar way of life. They always put headlines all over the papers about LSD murders(which were extremely rare), LSD freakouts(which were very rare), etc.. These were astonishingly safe drugs as far as violence goes compared with alcohol, but did they ever say shit about the thousands of crimes that are fueled by alcohol? Hell no they didn't. They had a mission, and that mission was to slowly change public opinion on these chemicals in a negative way.

I do appriciate your opinion though, it helps me more deeply understand what i'm talking about, and be more prepared for questions like these that i'll always have to answer.












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Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:49 PM)


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Food]
    #504781 - 12/30/01 12:26 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

> In reply to Kid: I am not saying that these people are in some sort of club . And I myself do not claim to be enlightened - neither am I trying to insult anyone who does not know EXACTLY what it is to be enlightened .
Can YOU define it ? - Being precise, exact, and perfectly accurate . ??

No, but that's what I find problematic about your answer too. If I could define it, I could become enlightened. Since I cannot define it, I cannot be enlightenment.

In my opinion, most people who use the term "Enlightenment" aren't refering to the actual experience itself: they are referring to the resulting life of bliss which they foresee themselves living afterwards as a result of that experience.

So, I guess that's my definition of Enlightenment: an experience which produces bliss for the rest of one's life.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #504802 - 12/30/01 01:00 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

There are many different levels and definitions of enlightenment.

Basically, when I say "enlightenment" I mean the recognition that you should live your life with peace and love as your motivation as much as possible.














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Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:50 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #504930 - 12/30/01 02:49 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Now i'll reply to Swami(you really should change your name to "Devils Advocate" for the shroomery ;))
I am hardly contrary just to be argumentative. Usually if I agree with a point, I will not respond. The Devil does not appreciate my comments. He likes ignorance! :)

I agree. This was a big part of the problem, but police and governent harassment also threw a BIG monkey wrench in the gears as well
Illegality only speaks to accessability, not efficacy.

Look at the monsters today in the pro body-building world. These guys are enormous and yet the most powerful androgenous(muscle-building) subtsances are totally illegal.

Another point, when I was growing up there was no common knowledge of ayahuasca; shroom spores were not generally available and growing them usually resulted in failure as the methods were not refined; dealers usually only had shrooms seasonally in very limited amounts, if at all; XTC, 2CB, 2C-T7,2C-T2, AMT, 5MEO-DMT, 5ME0-DIPT, etc were unheard of. One could not order dried mescaline-bearing cactus, mushroom spores and ayahusaca supplies over the net.

Basically, though still illegal, one has more options than ever before. Like most everyone else, I drifted away from pyschotropics on my own, not due to any media brain-washing. That is only effective before-the-fact, not after one has tripped.

Most of the people who used them at first were using them for personal and spritual enlightnment tools.
Perhaps, but we only know about the published works of the people of that time who tended to be deep thinkers and not reflective of the masses. My experiences started in the early '70s so I can only speak of my friends during that time. There was little philosophical talk, it was more of a let's "get high" type of attitude. My experiences were quite powerful and remain some of the milestones of my life. My point is: that my acid-head friends have found life to be as difficult, if not moredifficult than my straight friends.

As to me comparing the hippies to today's youth, sure there are cultural differences, but reading the newsgroup messges tells me that not all that much of importance has changed in attitudes.

Remember that Woodstock was one giant party, not a religious revival. Same with the Grateful Dead concerts.

Using your car analogy, one cannot ignore the accidents
along the way. There is danger with pyschedelic explorations and to ignore that or pretend it doesn't exist is foolhardy. These substabnces are nowhere near as dangerous as D.A.R.E paints them, nor nowhere near as safe as proponents declare.

but if you have a fairly solid life paradigm, you can always keep your eye on the prize and be able to understand what's going on a little better.
It is impossible to know what the prize is. As to control, methinks you are not seriously "experienced" as Jimi Hendrix put it. Try a medium dosage of ayahuasca (considered by many to be the most spiritual entheogen) and tell me how much control you had.

They had a mission, and that mission was to slowly change public opinion on these chemicals in a negative way.

Could not agree more with your final statement, but once again, the media did not keep me from having an enlightening experience.





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #505045 - 12/30/01 04:22 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Illegality only speaks to accessability, not efficacy.

I don't agree. The psychedelic culture would grow like crazy if you didn't have to do it behind closed doors. Building muscles is very different from a psychedelic experience. Noone knows what sustances you're doing if you're at the gym. If you try to form a "psychedelic club" in your neighborhood, how long would it be before the cops broke down your doors and put guns to your head?

Basically, though still illegal, one has more options than ever before
They may have more options, but they have no spiritual context in which to do these drugs because they haven't been taught about that aspect of it. They don't have a Tim Leary. Anyone who is a famous psychedelic advocate like Timothy Leary will get harassed by the police and busted. They can't stop you from speaking, but they can bust you for drugs. Only underground websites like The Shroomery can spread this info, and the people who come here are probably already doing them. There's no Shroomery TV channel, so these types of thoughts are in a round about way, made illegal, thus putting a big monkey wrench in the growth of the counter culture. IN FACT, the media has ALSO done an excellent job of making this type of "thought" uncool, because the government basically controls the media.

we only know about the published works of the people of that time who tended to be deep thinkers and not reflective of the masses

I think if you take a look back at the masses in Haight-Ashbury up until about 66 or 67, you'll see that even though these people may not have been able to put it into words, they were all brilliantly exploring their conciousness, coming together, and trying to become enlightened. Only when the establishment began to be threatened by this culture, and then started to fuck with it, did things start to go sour. If they would have left this Haight-Ashbury experiment alone, I think peace and love would have spread far and wide, and the world would be a different place.

Woodstock may not have been a religious revival per say, but there was absolutly no violence there. People were learning to get along during that time.

Using your car analogy, one cannot ignore the accidents along the way.

I don't ignore the accidents, but I also see that there is no debate over weither or not alcohol should be legal based on all the crime that it creates. When it comes to the illegality of psychedelics, it has almost NOTHING to do with health. It has to do with the fact that psychedelics were causing people to come together and rebel against an oppressive government. Also, the meditative, introspective states that psychedelics produce are more in synch with eastern culture, whereas alcohol more in synch with western culture, and that dumb and aggressive attitude that keeps the economy rolling along just fine.

It is impossible to know what the prize is

True, but I think I have a pretty good idea what the prize is.....LOVE. That's what the masses were learning in Haight-Ashbury before the heat came down. You can't wait until we know for sure that love is the answer before you make psychedelics legal. It should be common sense. "Love is the answer.....and you know that...for sure"-Lennon

As to control, methinks you are not seriously "experienced" as Jimi Hendrix put it. Try a medium dosage of ayahuasca (considered by many to be the most spiritual entheogen) and tell me how much control you had.

No I haven't(and I don't think Jimi had) taken Yage. I'm sure I wouldn't have control. I'm not sure what the point is there though.











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Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:51 PM)


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OfflineXyrico
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Food]
    #505109 - 12/30/01 05:58 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I categorized drugs as physical things to attempt to convey the message that these aren't necessary for spiritual growth, and often serve as an impedence. It's true, of course, that every thought and emotion we have is a direct result of a chemical reaction. However, the human brain was not intended to handle the particular reactions caused by drugs. They are a form of outside interference that the mind is incapable of properly dealing with. An artificial reaction is 100% invalid compared to one that comes naturally.

If you finally understood the meaning of life while tripping, it would likely be a significantly different conclusion than one you might come upon while, say, meditating. How comfortable would you be having a view of the world that was created for you by a drug?

"Take this pill, and the meaning of life, the universe, and everything will be *this*. Take this one, and it'll be *this*."

The difference between living and non-living things will change with each faith you encounter. If you're Christian, it has to do with souls. If you're a scientist, it's a simple matter of being a biological entity versus a non-biological one. For me, personally, the fundamental difference lies in being a living organism. I say fundamental for a reason, as from this basis one can move on to more spiritual beliefs such as souls and reincarnation.

You say drugs have made you happier. Granted, if that's what makes you happy, go for it. Just keep in mind that it's an illusion. Take away the drugs and you become depressed again. You say they have made you less materalistic and not as much of a logical thinker. So, does that mean you've given away your posessions and moved to a monastery? All that's changed is your own opinion of who you are and who you should be. Have you stopped buying cars and televisions and computers? Would you be content with living in an environment deviod of worldly pleasures, drugs included? No? Then you are still materialistic. 'Non-materialism through drugs' is an oxymoron. Let's put materialism aside, and give me one good example where this 'new mode of thinking' has been of any help, other than feeding your own ego. Think about the grief you might possibly be causing friends and relatives. Is your own so-called happiness really worth the tears of others?

You don't need drugs to be put on the road to enlightenment. If that were the case, beliefs and practices such as Buddhism and Yoga would somehow incorporate that into their systems. This isn't a matter of blind faith, either. Ask any respected spiritual man, perhaps one who would be considered enlightened, and they will tell you the same thing.

Those who wouldn't be 'spiritual' if it weren't for drugs should seriously rethink their reasons for wanting it in the first place. Perhaps I was too harsh in saying that some people are not fit for this kind of life, but some are definitely not ready for it when they start taking drugs. It is rushing a process which is not meant to be rushed.

And if drugs are the only way you have to give your life meaning, if waiting for the next toke is all you have left to live for, then I don't really know what to tell you. Maybe you should aim to solve your problems instead of escaping them.


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OfflineFood
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Xyrico]
    #505757 - 12/31/01 10:09 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Hello again Xyrico, although you probably didnt mean to make me laugh you have me almost in hysterics - you see old chap I havent tripped on shrooms for three years - I havent smoked cannabis for weeks and the only drug I have ever habitually used is coffee .
What I am trying to say is that I live most of my life without any drugs and only use them on special occassions .
So when you say:"Take away the drugs and you become depressed again" you make me smile and laugh so much thats it is hard to type .
No offence intended - honestly .
:)
You said that you don't need drugs to be put on the road to enlightenment - and I agree with you for certain, but that does not discount the possibly of their ability to do so . They are not neccesary but they are useful tools (some of them) .
And talking of respected spiritual men: I recently met a monk who gave me a copy of a book called "The science of self realisation" written by the founder of the international society for Krishna consciousness . And whilst talking to him about meditation, peace, happiness and love I pulled out my wallet to give the foundation a donation and the monk saw that my wallet was made of cannabis and had a picture of a cannabis leaf woven into it and began speaking to me about how they use cannabis in India to reach a state of bliss and altered consciousness whereby they can communicate with gods and spirits and learn important spiritual truths .

What on earth do you mean by this: "Think about the grief you might possibly be causing friends and relatives. Is your own so-called happiness really worth the tears of others? "
??

"Let's put materialism aside, and give me one good example where this 'new mode of thinking' has been of any help, other than feeding your own ego "

Feeding my own ego ?? ? Anyway are you asking about my first shroom experience here or what ?

?

I said I'd tell you of my answer to the question about the difference between living and non living things .
Well to demonstrate my answer think of five things , a rock - a cabbage - a rabbit - a human, and God .
All these things would commonly be placed on different levels of a hierarchical scale of life in the order that I listed them in - and shortly after watching a wall morph into various objects from my imagination I came up with the realisation that these things all lie on a hierarchical scale of their understanding of the true nature of reality and that they are placed on this scale into the same levels as they are the levels of life .
So to conclude, the difference between being alive and not being alive lies (at least in part) in the level of understanding of the true nature of reality that the subject holds .
Think about it for a whilke and Im sure you'll agree .
I'll write more later :)


--------------------
--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-


Edited by Food (12/31/01 10:52 AM)


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Xyrico]
    #507453 - 01/02/02 06:50 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

If you finally understood the meaning of life while tripping, it would likely be a significantly different conclusion than one you

  might come upon while, say, meditating.


I already understood the meaning of life fairly well before I started getting into it. I have logical reasons for knowing what the meaning of life is. Not that I know everything...far from it, but I have the frame of my theological house already built and then some.



You say drugs have made you happier. Granted, if that's what makes you happy, go for it. Just keep in mind that it's an

  illusion


First of all, everything we know is an illusion. Second, I don't think the psychedelic experience is an illusion in the way you mean either. I believe as Aldous Huxley did, that our minds are a "reducing valve" for keeping out all but a trickle of our true conciousness, and when you take psychedelics, the valve is opened up to let more in.



You say they have made you less materalistic and not as

  much of a logical thinker. So, does that mean you've given away your posessions and moved to a monastery?


He said "LESS materialistic". I don't think he claims to be completely enlightened.











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Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:52 PM)


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OfflineGrimace
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #511753 - 01/06/02 12:12 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

LearyFan, yet again you have said what much of us (those that have done extensive research on the subject) want to say. I thank you for standing up not only for yourself, but for an entire web of similar thinking creatures, I myself being one of them.
Your ideas are crystal, pure, and most of all, perplexing. I'm not saying they're all original, but more of a compilation of a well "dug in" topic. Nice work!

Listen to the keywords, fellas!

Grimace


--------------------
"Is there anyway of knowing........which direction we are going?!! Yes!"
Mr. Wonka


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Grimace]
    #512926 - 01/07/02 05:47 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks Grimace.



Just trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together man.














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Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:52 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #513006 - 01/07/02 08:34 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

There is tons of conjecture and philosophising on this thread.
Now how about we get to the substance...

How many of you get closer to some mystical goal with each successive trip?

No double-speak, no postulating. Let's talk real-world and not quote other sources, nor expound hypotheses.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #513084 - 01/07/02 10:40 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I feel I get closer with each trip. There's no way for me to really measure this belief, but that's what I feel.



Even if i'm not getting closer to my goal, i'm at least not falling farther away from it. When I take shrooms, it takes me back to a place of peace within myself where I have much more power over my whole world.



My life is a maze. Psychedelics give me a ladder to climb up to where I can see where to go, and where I shouldn't.



It is also my belief that we bring everything in our lives to us by our thought(concious or otherwise). By taking a substance that gives us greater control over our thoughts, we can make possitive changes.



Here's another car analogy I heard from somewhere.



You know those toy steering wheels kids have with the gear shift and all? We are like kids sitting in the passenger seat of their parents car, turning the wheel, thinking we are controling the car, when our subconcious in really driving.

Psychedelics put us in the drivers seat, at the real controls to whatever extent.



Hope I explained that well enough.











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Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:52 PM)


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Offlinenanosec
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #2877352 - 07/11/04 02:56 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

To Swami and Xyrico,

---I found this material on a physics discussion forum.  These guys are far more eloquent than I, so I shall let them explain.  I believe it will be useful in answering your questions:---

"By taking Creatine or vitamin  Q-10 for ATP synthesis, one is also taking an external source. In fact we are drug addicts to 20 essential amino acids, which we require from food, to produce the brain drugs of: Dopamine, Noreadrenaline, Serotonin et al. These are EXTERNAL SOURCES, and drugs unto themselves, they are highly PSYCHOACTIVE, not only that, but presently, we are also addicted to them.

The highest amount of serotonin in the body are found in the pineal. Serotonin can be converted to tryptamine (DMT is N-dimethyltryptamine). The pineal appears to have this ability. Methyltransferases, enzymes that convert serotonin, melatonin, or tryptamine into psychedelic compounds, reside in unusually high concentrations in the pineal. Finally, the pineal produces the potentially mind-altering substances, beta-carbolines. Beta-carbolines inhibit the breakdown of DMT by the body's MAOs. These compounds enhance and prolong the effects of DMT."

---So that debunks the issue of external vs. natural.  Many of these compounds are produced in the human brain!  :sun:---

"I believe it's an open question as to what significance such altered states of consciousness possess. The common response that they are meaningless since they are just caused by chemicals in the brain is ridiculous; everything we perceive is caused by chemicals in our brains, but clearly we ascribe some significance to our everyday perceptions.

Personally, I do not think such experiences are really literally the doorway to 'other worlds.' However, they are quite enlightening as to the nature of consciousness itself. The typical person who is limited to the experiences of 'normal' wakefulness and varying stages of dreaming is correspondingly limited in his notion of what consciousness is and what consciousness can be.

Why is the 'natural' more epistemically priveleged than the 'artificial'? If someone's brain naturally produced a rush of DMT in response to a natural experience, would that experience be more meaningful than the one where DMT is artificially introduced? If tomorrow everyone's brains started producing massive amounts of DMT, and the only way to return to previous brain states was by ingesting some artificially contrived pill, would that be an exercise in self deception or a restoring of sanity? What about so called 'smart drugs'-- if there really is any benefit to be had from them, is this benefit automatically deflated and shown to be misguided because it stems from an artificial source?

I personally see a distinction to be made, but it's certainly not about natural vs. artificial. Everyday experiences are taken to be veridical, ie being true representations of external reality, in virtue of their functional covariance with causal agents detectable by independent means (such as light, heat, etc.) In the hallucinatory experience, the isomorphism between information in internal brain states and external stimuli typically becomes degraded, and so in this sense such states can be said to be less veridical.

However, there may still be a functional covariance with factors other than those typically encountered in everyday experience, and in this sense altered states may be taken to be veridical representations of these new factors. For instance, at the very least, visual hallucinations are a case where visual experience covaries with internally generated activation of brain states, and in this sense visual hallucinations can be taken to be veridical representations of the visual brain processes themselves, as divorced from the causal chains of organization that normally shape them and artificially restrict our notions of them. This is surely insightful insofar as the workings of the brain are essentially invisible in everyday experience, and all we 'see' is an apparently concrete external world in a fit of naive realism.

Thus the significance of psychedelic experiences at the very least lives up to its name-- 'mind revealing.' And depending on the metaphysical nature of consciousness, it could be something more significant than one's own brain that one is gaining new insight into."

---So you see, there are legitimate reasons to seek these experiences.  Further, altered states of consciousness hardly require the use of chemicals.  The same can be achieved through meditation, art, novel ideas, alternative languages, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, as well as chemical compounds. 

For instance, watch the following flash presentation.  You will feel a definite change in perspective after having viewed it, yet you ingested no chemicals.  The only "mind altering agent" in this case is a pattern of acoustic and electromagnetic frequencies observed through the normal channels of your sensory apparatus:

http://w1.736.telia.com/~u73602493/flashback.html

So please, open your mind.  Psychedelic experiences are your birthright as a human being.  To believe the current propaganda is to cut yourself off from a realm of experience as profound and as nourishing as that of having really good sex!  You wouldn't want to go your whole lifetime without ever having sex, would you? :grin:

That's it.  I've had my say.  May love and truth find you where ever you are!---

"We teach what we know, but we reproduce what we are." - John Maxwell

"Before you can know anything directly, non-verbally, you must know the knower. So far, you took the mind for the knower, but it is not so. The mind clogs you up with images and ideas, which leave scars in memory. You take remembering to be knowledge. True knowledge is ever fresh, new, unexpected. It wells up from within. When you know what you are, you also are what you know. Between knowing and being there is no gap." - Nisargadatta Maharaj

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth,
but most of them pick themselves up
and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
    ~  Winston Churchill

"No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions."
    ~ Charles P. Steinmetz 

"The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven." -John Milton

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself.  Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.  If I could not go to Heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all."
-Thomas Jefferson

"Somewhere defined in aimless words, Somewhere within
my angry herd of stampeding emotions Love was running blind."
? Michael Hedges

?Reality is but a serotonin-induced hallucination" - Terence McKenna

"Earth's crammed with heaven,
And every common bush afire with God;
And only he who sees takes off his shoes;
The rest sit round it and pluck blackberries."
- Elizabeth Barrett Browning


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: nanosec]
    #2877547 - 07/11/04 08:11 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well said.

I was gonna reply and say that since non-drug induced "mystical experiences" involve the same sort of chemical activity as drug-induced ones, it is quite silly to say that one is valid and one isn't. You sort of implied this in your post, I think.

Of course, the sort of people who can attain such mental states without drugs are more likely to be interpreting the experience in a "mystical" context than drug users, so they may get more out of it.

Personally, I don't think that drugs teach you any expressable facts. They just give me great experiences which raises the quality of my life, which translates into happiness and general well-being.

I *am* a lot happier since the start of my psychedelic use, and I'm content with not seeing this happiness in a religious context at the moment. If future experiences are different, however, I'll rethink that.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: nanosec]
    #2880030 - 07/11/04 10:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'll address some of these arguments.

Quote:

. In fact we are drug addicts to 20 essential amino acids, which we require from food, to produce the brain drugs of:




I disagree.  It's a distortion of the word "addiction" to claim that you can be addicted to something which is essential to life. 

If you were to insist that this is fair use of the term "addiction" then I would simply argue that there is a clear distinction between being "addicted" to substances which keep you alive and "addicted" to medically unnecessary substance.

Quote:

These are EXTERNAL SOURCES, and drugs unto themselves, they are highly PSYCHOACTIVE, not only that, but presently, we are also addicted to them.




Is this supposed to be profound?  It's not.  Yes, precursors to neurotransmitters come from external sources.  Yes, neurotransmitters are involved in conscious stimuli.  What's the point?

The argument is quite absurd.  The human body cannot self-generate.  You have to consume external material to exist.  My bones contain calcium phosphate.  Am I addicted to calcium?  Am I addicted to my own bones?  I need food to help replicate DNA, does that mean that I'm addicted to food and DNA?

Quote:

These compounds enhance and prolong the effects of DMT.




To any meaningful extent?  Anyway, what's the point?  Yes, human beings do have chemicals in them which can alter consciousness when their ratios are altered.

Quote:

---So that debunks the issue of external vs. natural.  Many of these compounds are produced in the human brain!  :sun:---




Nonsense.  What distinguishes amino acids from, for example PCP, is that without amino acids, you would die.  You can live without PCP.  "Natural" is just a term that is used to differential between substances that are typically found in humans and xenobiotics.  Sure, sometimes it can be hard to differential, but that doesn't mean that there's no distinction between amino acids and PCP.

Quote:

The common response that they are meaningless since they are just caused by chemicals in the brain is ridiculous . . .




Wow, I actually agree.

Quote:

Why is the 'natural' more epistemically priveleged than the 'artificial'? If someone's brain naturally produced a rush of DMT in response to a natural experience, would that experience be more meaningful than the one where DMT is artificially introduced?




Would either of them be meaningful?

Quote:

I personally see a distinction to be made, but it's certainly not about natural vs. artificial. Everyday experiences are taken to be veridical, ie being true representations of external reality, in virtue of their functional covariance with causal agents detectable by independent means (such as light, heat, etc.) In the hallucinatory experience, the isomorphism between information in internal brain states and external stimuli typically becomes degraded, and so in this sense such states can be said to be less veridical.




Yes, I agre.

Quote:

. . .and in this sense visual hallucinations can be taken to be veridical representations of the visual brain processes themselves, as divorced from the causal chains of organization that normally shape them and artificially restrict our notions of them.




Probably.

[quote[ . . .the significance of psychedelic experiences at the very least lives up to its name-- 'mind revealing.' And depending on the metaphysical nature of consciousness, it could be something more significant than one's own brain that one is gaining new insight into.




If we assume that a psychedelic experience is the result of taking a real drug, then how can be conclude that a psychedelic experience reveals metaphysical phenomena?  I cannot conclude that.  It is logically possible, but I have no way of testing this.

Quote:

So you see, there are legitimate reasons to seek these experiences. 




The argument was sloppy.


Quote:

So please, open your mind.




So the author argues all this, comes to a conclusion that is logically possible but ultimately untestable by science and then asks us to accept that it's true.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #2880141 - 07/11/04 11:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think psychedelics are all that is required for everybody to obtain "enlightenment," nor do I think that everybody should use psychedelics to help themselves on their path towards "enlightenment."

I think it only helps with SOME people, and with even those people it only help SOME of the time.... Its all about one's own path, and deciding what is right for you.

Drugs just won't help many people, and for many people drugs are not ALL that will help them


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Strumpling]
    #2881282 - 07/12/04 06:00 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

wasn't it aldous huxley who described psychedelics as being analogous to the christian concept of "gratuitous grace" - being neither neccessary nor sufficient for salvation ?


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #2881534 - 07/12/04 09:15 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
<br>I believe that the crackdown on psychedelic drugs is possibly the biggest conspiracy in the history of mankind. In the 60's they almost woke everyone up. Now those doors are shut to most people.
<br>
<br>Quite sad.
<br>




Yup yup yup...of course, the government machine has it so easy, they have so much at their disposal to make anyone that uses the word "conspiracy" look paranoid and nothing but...and all of us can so clearly look at something like government, hundreds of men in suits filing into buildings arguing about paperwork and never getting anything done, and see that it's one big bad trip sometimes...sigh.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #2881546 - 07/12/04 09:23 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

On the issue of enlightenment, though...(posted that last post only after reading the first, just gone done reading the rest..)

I don't think any sort of true complete "enlightenment" is possible by any means. To me the nature of existence is an entropic fracture from a whole, like cracks spreading along a massive pane of glass slowly, sprouting new crevices as it goes along, or perhaps the frozen surface of a lake (which is an even better analogy, because it fits in perfectly with the whole return-to-water obsession I have).
And there could never be a sort of enlightenment of the masses or anything like that, because this fractured nature of reality wouldn't allow for it - I believe who we are is defined by each and every moment we exist in space and time, all those moments being stacked upon some sort of invisible base, the Godhead if you will, that we all came from. So when each person achieves any sort of "enlightenment" whether through drugs or meditation or prayer or almost getting hit by a car crossing Second Avenue, they are reaching back through that stack of moment to run their fingers through the godhead's soft hair - but still that enlightenment comes through their own personal filter. Total ego loss is possible, but in the end we all know it's only permanently possible through death. So, whoever said that drugs offer "a taste" of enlightenment, I would absolutely agree with...and that's why it's dangerous to rely on drugs as any sort of savior or enlightening force. To me, it's like glimpsing death, and realizing "well, if that's death, that's fine with me, and I'll have a good time while I can."
Well, Morrison said it best, and I don't even need to reprint it here.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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Offlinenanosec
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2881841 - 07/12/04 11:11 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

>>So the author argues all this, comes to a conclusion that is logically possible but ultimately untestable by science and then asks us to accept that it's true.<<

_____________________________________________________________________

...Um.  Ok.  Ok.  I take it back. :rolleyes:

_____________________________________________________________________







We fear nothing more than reason.  We ought to fear stupidity if we understood what is really frightful.  But reason is too uncomfortable, it must be brushed aside.  Whereas stupidity is merely fatal, and that can be tolerated.
~Wilhelm Meister Goethe


The truth must be falsehood unless it be the whole truth;  and the whole truth is partly inaccessible, partly unintelligible, partly incredible and partly unpublishable -- that is, in any country where truth in itself is recognized as a dangerous explosive.
~Aleister Crowley


I think the subject which will be of most importance politically
is Mass Psychology... Its importance has been enormously increased
by the growth of modern methods of propaganda. Although this
science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to
the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know
how its convictions are generated.  When the technique has been perfected, every government that has been in charge of education for a generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen.
~Bertrand Russell


The matrix is everywhere.  It is all around us.  Even now, in this very room.  You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television.  You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes.  It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes, to blind you from the truth.  ... you are a slave.  Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch.  A prison for your mind ... What is the Matrix?  Control.  The Matrix is a dream world built to keep us under control.
~Morpheus


Edited by nanosec (07/12/04 01:48 PM)


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Offlinehashclown
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: nanosec]
    #9432797 - 12/14/08 08:52 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I did not have time to read the entire thread, but I would still like to add my two cents.

Hallucinogens won't have much affect on a person without the use of meditation. 

Hallucinogens like acid and mushrooms often lead to anxiety while using and perhaps a couple days of depression after use.  The benefits of this typical use(and some may not perceive it as such) is the facing of one's fears, and like it or not, the person is always better for it. 

Now, the real power of hallucinogens and other entheogens can be seen while in a meditative state.  In my experience, it is the repeated act of striving for peace within one's self that has a lasting impression on the individual.

So... drugs alone can do both good and bad to anyone (too much of anything...).  But combined with the effort of consciously changing one's perception, hallucinogens most definitely help to push one down the path towards enlightenment.

I am not an enlightened individual.  But I am changing, for the better.  I now live in a state that is susceptible to both heaven and hell (not a future dwelling place but a reality of the present).  Hallucinogens allowed me to see this by making each state more exaggerated.  But these chemicals can only show me the door, it is up to me to walk through it.


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Offlinehashclown
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: hashclown]
    #9432837 - 12/14/08 08:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

hashclown said:

Hallucinogens like acid and mushrooms often lead to anxiety while using and perhaps a couple days of depression after use.  The benefits of this typical use(and some may not perceive it as such) is the facing of one's fears, and like it or not, the person is always better for it. 






Hallucinogens can still be a lot of fun, I was just trying to explain what happened to me and my friends after repeated use with no direction or reasoning.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: hashclown]
    #15141811 - 09/27/11 12:53 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Bump so that I can remember to respond for liquidlounge.













--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



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Offlineinfectedstyle
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan] * 1
    #15142313 - 09/27/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

What happened to personal experiences instead of quotes?

First, let me say i really never believed there is such a thing as enlightenment where suddenly everything "clicks". I saw it as an imaginary carrot on a stick used by guru's to promise something at the end of the road.

When i do mushrooms i do it with only two purposes. For my own growth and insights. And basically seeing beautiful stuff. I never get quite what i bargained for. :tongue:

To me, mushrooms have "promised" enlightenment aswell. And yes i take them more seriously than i do any guru. (Not that i don't listen to them and respect them, it's just that mushrooms can explain things so much better) In the sense that i have experiences that i define as enlightenment being rubbed into my face. And it's been made explicitly clear that the only thing holding me back from embracing this is fear. Which makes sense to me.

I don't agree with the definition given for enlightenment at the start of this thread tho. To me, enlightenment is the realization of the illusory nature of all things. And being able to consiously step out of consensus reality at will.

Sometimes when i do mushrooms. Only when i'm alone for a long time i get to a certain place with a certain thought. And when i'm "there" it seems blatantly obvious that all things in the world only excist because i expect them to. Because we all expect them to. Then i look around and see with my own eyes there is nothing left but my room. Look outside and the road is somehow vertical and every car is driven by the same driver. All waving at me and smiling. (I've never fully accepted this however. never to what i can recall) Then i start remembering other things and i come down.

No point. You probably don't understand what i mean. But to me it's interesting that this happens reccuringly on shrooms. Even tho i never bought into all the spiritual stuff. So it's not placebo. Not sure if i used that term correctly. :blush:


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Offlinehorus_92
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: infectedstyle]
    #15142483 - 09/27/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Psychedelics can give you insight into your life and other people that you can use to change yourself, most often people don't follow through with that insight because it's difficult to do so, they can also make you disconnected from reality especially if you use them frequently.

Regardless, I'm pretty suspicious of anybody who claims to be enlightened.


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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: horus_92]
    #15142605 - 09/27/11 03:43 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

I can agree somewhat. I believe enlightenment is completely subjective. I hear people say that drugs can't teach you things you don't know but i don't think that's what it's about... I think enlightenment is when you come to pure acceptance of the things you DO know. All those things you know are good for you deep down but are too busy getting caught up in the day to day negativity and harmful aspects of life that you tend to ignore them. I think enlightenment is when all that "clicks" and you end up with a new motivation to be who you truly want to be and actually live by the standards that you make for yourself and others.

I've known several psyche users who seem like they have life all figured out. But when they tell me everything they've learned, it's not stuff i didn't already know, it's just stuff that i believed in but have never been able to implement in my own life. I still battle with depression and all the stress of life while they're just taking it day by day not concerned with success or failure, but only the obstacles in the present. So, we have the same philosophy in a sense, but it's harder for me to live by mine. Possibly the psyches just re-enforced it for them by allowing them to transcend those barriers which normally hold us back. Things like social-acceptance, money, uncertainty, etc suddenly become less important while under the influence of psychedelics


Edited by JacksonMetaller (09/27/11 03:45 PM)


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: infectedstyle]
    #15142666 - 09/27/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

You guys make good points.  And infectedstyle, I think you're right about enlightenment being the point where you recognize the illusory nature of reality.  The term is extremely subjective, but I think that definition fits as good as any, and I think a lot of people would agree with it.  But I also think that that's the point I was making. 

So liquidlounge, you wanted me to take a look at my post 10 years later and I did.  I thought I'd think I did a terrible job, and it could have been better, but I actually think I made some good points.  I still agree with all of those points 10 years on.  Thanks for the flashback.














--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Apple Glass Cyndrome - Someday



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OfflineDesert Elf

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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #15143084 - 09/27/11 05:31 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Riddle me this:


What if Morpheus never showed Neo the "truth", but in fact was an agent propelling him into a parallel matrix?


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat


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OfflineMan De Novo
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Desert Elf] * 1
    #15144470 - 09/27/11 09:58 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Wittgenstein once said: "Philosophers are often like little children who scribble some marks on a piece of paper and then ask the grown-up, "What does this mean?"

It's a good quote to ponder when people are casually throwing around the term 'enlightenment'.

If this wasn't a psychedelic drug forum but a discussion board for a certain sect of Buddhism, I could understand having a fruitful discussion. That's because we would all be steeped in the same tradition, we would share stories and ideas. But being the Shroomery, the chances of any two of the posters in this thread having the exact same definition of enlightenment is slim to none.

So I don't know about enlightenment. I've studied Socrates, and he was all about the love of wisdom. I learned from him that the one of the fundamental pre-requisites to attaining wisdom through debate is to have clear and agreed-upon definitions of words. Limited as we are, language is on a short list of human methods of communication that also includes art. And that's what can make the psychedelic experience so dangerous to intellectual progress - if we feel that there can be a clear meaning conveyed outside of both words and art, or outside of any kind of explicable process, we get dangerously close to trafficking in sheer bullshit.

The proper approach is to build your model of the world from the known facts of the universe while in consensus reality. What exists in the psychedelic experience can only ever be a reflection and amplification of this objective reality. If your consensus reality includes supernatural aspects, your psychedelic experience may too. If you are a strict naturalist, as I am, you may not experience entities. Take what you can from the psychedelic realm. Many people with particular combinations of nature and nurture will be able to improve some things they want to improve about themselves through consistent application on the wake of psychedelic experience. Many won't.

In consensus reality, "the other world" is just a metaphor.


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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Man De Novo]
    #15144592 - 09/27/11 10:20 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Man De Novo said:
Wittgenstein once said: "Philosophers are often like little children who scribble some marks on a piece of paper and then ask the grown-up, "What does this mean?"

It's a good quote to ponder when people are casually throwing around the term 'enlightenment'.

If this wasn't a psychedelic drug forum but a discussion board for a certain sect of Buddhism, I could understand having a fruitful discussion. That's because we would all be steeped in the same tradition, we would share stories and ideas. But being the Shroomery, the chances of any two of the posters in this thread having the exact same definition of enlightenment is slim to none.

So I don't know about enlightenment. I've studied Socrates, and he was all about the love of wisdom. I learned from him that the one of the fundamental pre-requisites to attaining wisdom through debate is to have clear and agreed-upon definitions of words. Limited as we are, language is on a short list of human methods of communication that also includes art. And that's what can make the psychedelic experience so dangerous to intellectual progress - if we feel that there can be a clear meaning conveyed outside of both words and art, or outside of any kind of explicable process, we get dangerously close to trafficking in sheer bullshit.

The proper approach is to build your model of the world from the known facts of the universe while in consensus reality. What exists in the psychedelic experience can only ever be a reflection and amplification of this objective reality. If your consensus reality includes supernatural aspects, your psychedelic experience may too. If you are a strict naturalist, as I am, you may not experience entities. Take what you can from the psychedelic realm. Many people with particular combinations of nature and nurture will be able to improve some things they want to improve about themselves through consistent application on the wake of psychedelic experience. Many won't.

In consensus reality, "the other world" is just a metaphor.




Excellent post, friend.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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OfflineDidgedood
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan] * 1
    #24002913 - 01/12/17 12:59 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Agreed, all psychedelics do is catalyze a different state of consciousness, everything else is all you.


--------------------
“If there were no desire to heal
The damaged and broken met along
This tedious path I've chosen here
I certainly would've walked away by now” -MJK


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan] * 1
    #24003120 - 01/12/17 04:20 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
"People thought psychedelics were the answer to enlightenment in the 60's, but it didn't work".



This thread is from 15 years ago!

It reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend many years ago. He had gotten into ingesting DMT and LSD and reading the Bible. 

I told him that I had seen the Light.

He acted skeptical.

I told him that he had seen the Light also.

He asked "how is that?"

I told him that when he ingested DMT and saw "colors and patterns" --  THAT WAS THE LIGHT.

Many people have been "Enlightened". However their Enlightenment didn't extend to realizing that they had, in fact, been Enlightened.


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.


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Offlinealwaysbenice
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: endogenous] * 1
    #24003155 - 01/12/17 04:50 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

5-MeO-DMT (also made in the body) seems to be the most effective tool for true liberation of the ego, to purge it's from all it's trauma and lose completely identification with it and rest as the pure blissful awareness.

The spectrum of the experience and dosis goes something like:
ego death - more ego death - more ego death - absolutely infinity

It is extremely intens and is generally much much much intens than DMT, though DMT can also get one to the end, but so can a sober meditation.

Be warned however, you have to be ready to integrate all the copious amounts of shit stored in the subconscious that you were given by an extremely suppressed culture, and mostly took on in childhood. And most people think they have a lot less than they actually do.

Here is a nice interview on 5-MeO from with adjunct professor who used to it become enlightened supposedly:


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Offlineslacknsurf420
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan] * 1
    #24006263 - 01/13/17 05:34 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

I never would have had my death, rebirth, and enlightenment without the use of psychedelics (specifically the very dangerous 25b)

It's not for everybody and I will never condone the use of some research chemicals, especially nbome, even if it is for enlightenment. I did acheive Nirvana, but I also experienced death to the furthest degree imaginable.

I just want add on to the lethality of 25b. It's extremely dangerous, if you took a dose like I did (accidentally dosed like it was regular 2CB). I guarantee you will feel like you are going to die, the experience will last an eternity (it can be considerably longer than DOB or DOC at high doses). You might just want to give up...I dont quite understand how I tripped so long, it seriously felt like weeks. It was an extremely high dose and I experienced many feelings that have developed my character. I'm not religious but I do feel better connected between myself and nature, kind of like I detached myself more from my body but even more in tune with my consciousness.

That's the big thing I will always remember about that one. It was an accident, and I'm happy I went through with it because what I learned was incredibly satisfying. Still, at the same time, I hate when I say that because that was waaaaaaay toooooo muuuucccchhh


Edited by slacknsurf420 (01/13/17 05:53 AM)


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OfflineTylershatto5
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: slacknsurf420] * 1
    #24007230 - 01/13/17 01:54 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

great post


--------------------
I dont ask for opinions i ask for facts!


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Offlinedeep_thinker
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Tylershatto5]
    #24728728 - 10/22/17 05:34 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

It's worth noting that even enlightened people can be assholes.

Google Adi Da.

He was an avatar (transmitted energy, woke people just by being in his presence) and he did stuff like fucking his students wives under the illusion it was to "rid their attachment to their loved ones" and as time went on, to further things like raping women.


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: deep_thinker]
    #24728958 - 10/22/17 09:01 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Enlightenment can be achieved without any entheogen at all, the most enlightened being I've met has never used them


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
    #24729280 - 10/22/17 12:00 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

my dads more enlightened than your dad


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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InvisibleShroomymancer
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #24729677 - 10/22/17 03:50 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

What is a good definition of enlightenment from someone that's actually enlightened? I suspect the definition varies.


--------------------
beep boop


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Shroomymancer]
    #24730870 - 10/23/17 06:26 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

respectfully making things both less heavy, and more clear for yourself and others.

as if actual light or illumination were part of it, and
as if actual inertia or freedom of movement were part of it.


Many of the apparent attributes of enlightenment such as a deep understanding of attachment which is a double edged sword (attachment is actually essential to the workings of mind/memory/perception) have been faked by charismatic personalities in cult like situations, who abuse their position.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24731096 - 10/23/17 08:57 AM (5 years, 10 months ago)

my teacher is a real or very accomplished one


--------------------
Nothing helps in the end like understanding the wisdom-producing aspects of our experience, that is the three charectistics


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