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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #490746 - 12/14/01 05:27 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I can say that I've already learned a lot through Salvia Divinorum.

The core question as I see it is not: "How much did you learn?" or even "Were you enlightened?" The real question is "Has your life improved and how?" Are you more satisifed in your relationships or career? Have you taken action on some of the "truths" given to you in the vision state. Do you bring more love into your actions?

Many of the people on these boards proclaim "We are all one." and "Love is the answer." But get emotionally offset (frequently with curses) at the slighest challnge to their beliefs. Am I not another aspect of their being? Where is the love or is it only words?

Was discussing diet with a friend recently who was struggling with her weight. When I offered some advice, she repeatedly replied ,"I know, I know!"

If you know something and do no act on it, then you do not "know" it. This type of purely cerebral "knowledge" is often mistaken for wisdom.

So I don't care if you experience the Big Bang and talk directly with God, if your life is still a mess and you are unhappy, then you have learned nothing of value!















--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #490792 - 12/14/01 07:25 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps like Existential Phenomenology, wherein one [brackets] aspects of Reality - the univeral aspects in particular. One then moves from the existential domain to the ontological domain - from existence to Being (the very transcendental Ego Itself).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #490930 - 12/14/01 12:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"So I don't care if you experience the Big Bang and talk directly with God, if your life is still a mess and you are unhappy, then you have learned nothing of value!"

The quality of your life and what you've learned are not necessarily the same thing. You give the example of the psychedelic movement of the 60s petering out (while not acknowledging that all the substances and research were made illegal by the government). That research needed to be developed and there needed to be more integration and refining of taking and discussing psychedelics. The movement could have continued, and that's what the government feared.

In anyone's individual life most the forces we encounter are not going to substantiate our psychedelic experience. Kind of like your kung fu skills mean nothing in the boxing ring. People don't have a supportive community geared toward developing and comprehending psychedelic awareness.

I also have read a lot of reports of psychedelics changing people's lives for the better. I read the book "Tripping," which has about 400 pages of reports, and a lot of people have made lasting changes based on understanding reached through psychedelics.

In my case I can say I've had to re-evaluate reality subsequent to my Salvia breakthrough experiences. I've already been reading more philosophy, brain/consciousness theory, quantum physics, and of course psychedelic literature than I otherwise would have. I meditate and I didn't used to. I find I can incorporate impressions and qualities accessed through psychedelics into my art?

So, I think it depends on the person, and if one is going to run with what they've learned, or if one is going to burry it.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #490956 - 12/14/01 12:50 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you in that there is a distinct difference between "cerebral knowledge" gained from psychedelics and and actually changing how you live your life as a result of that knowledge. However, such a change can only exist in a social framework. In the 60's when a lot of people were turning on to psychedelics at the same time, they felt free to change their behavior in accordance with their new insights (eg. giving people rides without fear, peace, love, etc). But today if someone was to act the same way, he would probably get cheated, beaten up, or something equally as bad. I would truly like to act on my realizations gained through psychedelics, but in 2001 it is far too difficult to abandon the shackles of the materialistic world and do your own thing (not impossible obviously, but a lot harder than it was 35 years ago).

I like to think I've learned enough to influence how I live my life. Sure, I'm not an eastern mystic yet, but I think I incorporate such elements of wisdom into my everyday life in a way that is beneficial to my happiness and to those around me. If that's the limit to what psychedelics can do I still think that's worth it.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #490979 - 12/14/01 01:04 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

One more thing:
What psychedelics have done for me is this. Before I ever did drugs, I was a hardcore athiest and couldn't really imagine anything else out there besides scientific processes. After my first few times tripping, I suddenly realized "holy shit, maybe there is something else." This led to my subsequent (and sober) study of matters of spirituality and eastern philosophy. Later psychedelic experiences confirmed these studies and imbedded their knowledge into my outlook on life. So yes, pyschedelics didn't confer wisdom in and of themselves. No drug or material object can do that. It is a tool that can be used for that end. Some people chose to use it as such, but unfortunately most don't.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #491005 - 12/14/01 01:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

After my first few times tripping, I suddenly realized "holy shit, maybe there is something else." This led to my subsequent (and sober) study of matters of spirituality and eastern philosophy.

I had a similar type of Eureka! experience on LSD. A few years later I went to study at Ananda (disciples of Yoganada) in the California Sierra foothills. We did yoga, affirmations, meditation and had a vegetarian diet. There were no drugs, TV, or alcohol allowed. Other than getting quite healthy (which is definitely a good thing) I left feeling as if I had not gathered even one small drop of insight.

20+ years later I still have not discovered anything of substance. I am not sure if I missed the boat or if there never was a boat.

On a footnote, the 76 year old Swami Kriyanada (no relation to your favorite Swami :o) ) was booted out of the community he founded decades ago. Seems he took sexual advantage of several female disciples who came to him for counseling. Says Donald Walters, aka Swami Kriyanada, "I was giving them a blessing!"

LOL - who would like a blessing from Swami?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #491102 - 12/14/01 03:56 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you ska. I havea the same conversion from atheism to more Eastern appraoches to reality. But let me ask you this. What psychedelic did you have your significant trips on?

" What psychedelics have done for me is this. Before I ever did drugs, I was a hardcore athiest and couldn't really imagine anything else out there besides scientific processes. After
my first few times tripping, I suddenly realized "holy shit, maybe there is something else." This led to my subsequent (and sober) study of matters of spirituality and eastern
philosophy. Later psychedelic experiences confirmed these studies and imbedded their knowledge into my outlook on life. So yes, pyschedelics didn't confer wisdom in and of
themselves. No drug or material object can do that. It is a tool that can be used for that end. Some people chose to use it as such, but unfortunately most don't."


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #491111 - 12/14/01 03:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"I had a similar type of Eureka! experience on LSD. A few years later I went to study at Ananda (disciples of Yoganada) in the California Sierra foothills. We did yoga, affirmations,
meditation and had a vegetarian diet. There were no drugs, TV, or alcohol allowed. Other than getting quite healthy (which is definitely a good thing) I left feeling as if I had not
gathered even one small drop of insight."

Yeah, well, we were talking about psychedelic epiphanies, not joining a group which prohibits psychedelics (as opposed to integrating them). I don't think the example of not gaining anything from abstaining from psychedelics, or of a supposed guru (who also probably doesn't do psychedelics) taking advantage of students reflects poorly on psychedelic knowledge more-or-less properly integrated.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #491123 - 12/14/01 04:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

My first trip few trips were on mushrooms, and these were of the eye opening variety but I was still too in awe to really use anything I got from them. Later I used acid and it served to consolidate all the stuff I've been reading about in meaningful terms. Do you think the type of psychedelic really matters? Sure, people say that shrooms are more spiritual and acid more analytical, but to me they both bring you to the same place, just different flavors. I'm pretty sure I would've ended up the same way no matter how I got there.


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #491222 - 12/14/01 06:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"Do you think the type of psychedelic really matters?"

Yeah. For example, weed is a psychedelic, and I've had access to good enough stuff to actually get some psychotropic effects from it, but it doesn't compare to my mushroom experiences. Only Salvia really made me re-evaluate everything. The other psychedelics I've experimented with thus far (only weed, mushrooms, 5-Me0-dipt, MDMA, & mescaline) did not removed me completely from this reality and cast me into another one. It's one thing to trip in this reality/dimension/what-have-you, and it's another thing altogether to find yourself suspended in the void (after passing through a barrier while protesting that you still have things to do in this life).To exist in a complete other realm leads one to question whether this is the only reality, or whether reality doesn't include other realms that Western science hasn't proven (well, some quantum physicists might argue otherwise), but which Easter mysticism insisted on for thousands of years.

But, given my relative inexperience, I may not be aware of the upper reaches attainable through other psychedelics. Salvia takes me beyond what I can stand, and it does it fast, and with no physical side-effects.

How would you compare your Salvia experiences with your other psychedelic experiences? Or can you?


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Invisiblecantara
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #491276 - 12/14/01 07:29 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>>>>Psychedelics are like climbing a tree in the woods to see where one has to go, coming down, and continuing the effort to go further. They give you far sight, or foresight, or vision. It would seem that one's microscope or telescope or whatever instrument, defines the nature of one's quest.

This is a very well-worded observation, Markos, and Swami, this is my answer to your Q to me earlier, about what I have gained.

I agree with pretty much everyone on this post that says you don't just immediately gain an all-access pass to Heaven and a one-on-one interview with God for your life based on a trip. It's not instant magic.

I *do*, however, think that psychedelics *are* meaningful, or have a great capacity *to* be used to meaningful employment by intelligent, psychologically-balanced, well-prepared people. To suggest they don't create lasting value is, in my own opinion and based on the experiences of some of my friends, not an accurate portrayal.

In a nutshell, I don't believe you can take them and have access to huge blocks of knowledge which you can still have access to later when not under the influence. I DO think you can have access to your own subconscious workings to an amazing degree, that would take months or years to reach through more traditional methods, and I DO think that you can at least get impressions of other aspects of reality that exist outside of consensus reality, that you can then, to use Markos' imagery (which I really like, and is so accurate for myself), "climb back down the tree" and use those things.

Psychedelics are tools, I believe. Like any other tool, if you use them in a manner that optimizes their abilities, you can gain successful results. If you use them in a manner, or for a purpose, that they can't "work" or that is beyond their scope (trying to build a house with a hammer and no wood or nails), you won't get much of lasting value out of them.



--------------------
---- Cantara

[green]Shroomism, please don't delete this thread![/green]


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #491441 - 12/14/01 10:35 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, well, we were talking about psychedelic epiphanies, not joining a group which prohibits psychedelics...

But several members stated clearly that psychedelics were positive experiences because it led them to Eastern mysticism and philosophy.

My point was that neither sampling the drugs nor following the path through the door (yoga / meditation) that they seemingly opened led anywhere for me.





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #491448 - 12/14/01 10:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Salvia is weird. Usually I don't really know what to make of her experiences. The world is just so utterly alien that I don't know what to bring back with me to this reality. Traditional psychedelics are easier to assimilate I think, and although they can indeed remove you completely from reality, you are still in this worId. Salvia transports you to a completely different place altogether. I find Salvia interesting but frankly of little use to daily life. It can make you realize just what else is out there, but as far as actual wisdom with how to live your life, deal with other people, etc it doesn't offer much. Acid is my favorite. Nothing beats the raw mind opening power of LSD.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #491457 - 12/14/01 10:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So are you saying that psychedelics have done absolutely nothing for you? No greater perspective? No enhanced appreciation for nature/art/music? Even if you never got to enlightenment I would think those things would be valuable to you. An increased perspective in your day to day life is still a psychedelic-inspired epiphany, so are you saying that you are completely unchanged as a person?


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #491545 - 12/15/01 12:09 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

> so are you saying that you are completely unchanged as a person?

I have a problem with this kind of questioning because how is the subject supposed to know whether or not they altered their development due to a given experience. How much is their judgment (yes, or no) is based simply on wishful thinking?

I wouldn't say that psychedelics have done nothing for me, but when I really try to take a critical look at what I think they've done for me I have no answer. It doesn't seem to be something I can tell, except for whatever insights I had while under the influence. The problem I have with the idea of progress with psychedelics through insights is that it conflicts with most models of Enlightenment: Enlightenment is a sort of transcendental all-knowingness at one moment, devoid of any sort of conceptual thought. Insights are discrete entities. The idea of insights allowing one to progress to me seems too much like wishful thinking: If I were to write down all of my insights, would I be able to progress further and further with the more pages I write? Would an encyclopedia of insights experienced while under the influece lead me anywhere? I doubt it.

What I find is good evidence that psychedelics can have lasting religious value is that the Native American Church uses peyote as a sacriment. Whatever reason subcultures haven't established a culture of their own centered around psychedelics eludes me.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #491555 - 12/15/01 12:33 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

>I have a problem with this kind of questioning because how is the subject supposed to know whether or not they altered their development due to a given experience.

This is true, but in asking the same question of myself, I know that my general philosophy on life has changed from when I had never used psychedelics. This might have happened anyway, but I highly suspect psychedelics had at least some part in helping to bring out what was already there, if not catalyzing it altogether.

>The problem I have with the idea of progress with psychedelics through insights is that it conflicts with most models of Enlightenment

I think insight can be thought of as meaning "a step toward a more enlightened state" rather than "a discrete bit of knowledge I use to better my life." I'm sure buddhist monks didn't go from "normal peasant" to "enlightened master" in one huge step. It was a gradual process, and each step along the way involved an insight of some sort (perhaps a better word would be more appropriate). Progress is attained through psychedelics only in that the progress is mediated by a biochemical tool as opposed to in a vacuum.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #493555 - 12/17/01 07:08 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'd like to interject, that a most influential teacher in my life - the late Lama Anagarika Govinda - had his life changed after LSD. Until LSD, he never quite 'Realized' what the 10 hour meditation sessions and visualizations that he learned were all about, and he was a Tibetan Buddhist Lama (of European descent) of the Kargyutpa Order. His most important text is 'Foundations of Tibetan Buddhism,' and he wrote a forward in Leary's 'The Psychedelic Experience.'
Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #493559 - 12/17/01 07:24 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

sorry for my incompetence on the subject, but does anyone wonder if monks, specifically buddhism and such, ever used these "tools." real enlightenment to them is not using any of this. we percieve enlightenment after visuals and questionings under intoxicating circumstances. so, do they see what we see without psychadelics

does this make sense?


--------------------
Real botanists laugh at HPS systems, we do however use high pressure sodium in the parking lot. - artthug


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: felix] * 1
    #494568 - 12/18/01 07:19 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

According to the late Neem Karoli Baba - Ram Dass's Guru - psychedelic substances were used in the Kulu valley area of India (?) in the distant past, but knowledge was lost. It has been hypothesized by some, that the Soma of the Hindu Vedas was the Amanita Muscaria mushroom, yet this mushroom lends itself to more of a delirium than an ecstasy. It may be that the 'sacred dung' of cows in India, had its sacrality imparted by the dung-loving psilocybian mushrooms, and that these were responsible for the experiences that gave rise to Yoga practices.

Whereas Hindu sadhus still use ganga, Buddhists prohibit the use of intoxicants. True psychedelics though, while they may result in inebriation, do so in the sense of a 'taste' of samadhi, not the 'high' of cannabis, opium or alcohol. The historical Buddha apparently died of food poisoning: either from pork (which would seem unlikely) or from mushrooms (which would've been forbidden to high caste - Brahman - Hindus; yet Buddha rejected the notionof caste).

All we can do is speculate about the past, but in the present, we know what we know.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: felix]
    #494589 - 12/18/01 08:40 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

& here you are on the edge of the Soma (or Somas?) controversy...
the oldest hindu collection of hymns, the rg vedas, have many songs revering & praising the powers of some type of "plant-god-stuff" --- identified by gordon wasson as fly agaric mushrooms... other candidates have been suggested, and it is not impossible that a number of different plants and mushrooms were used (perhaps "Soma" came to mean "entheogen" ?)
does the ingestion of your ritual sacrament make you more aware, more compassionate, more in touch with "the holy" ?
and, if so, is it the the "ritual" or the "sacrament" or a combination?
the relationship between feelings of sacredness & awe, and the consumption of sacred intoxicants certainly go back much further than the invention of writing (and the wheel, no doubt... i wonder if it precedes the use of fire... brings to miond huston smiths _forgotten truths: the primordial tradition_ the appendix of which was re-written for his recent book on psychedelics and religious experience: see www.csp.org for info on book) & many, many papers and books have been written about the subject...


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old enough to know better
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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Psychedelic Experience

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