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Offlinethelox
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DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment?
    #1485374 - 04/23/03 09:14 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've read people say that it doesn't because "party drug" users don't feel enlightened.
For what it's worth I've asked friends who have done medium dose-high dose trips in the past but don't really care for shrooms
and don't understand why I like them so much.
Anyway one friend said "They make me think the world is a game and fucked up shit"
other friends gave similar answers. Now these friends are not interested in such things as
philosophy, etc. I think maybe they do give you the chance to realize a different state of consciousness
that is valuable, that different levels of conscienceness allows different knowledge. I think maybe
this scared my friends and attributes to "bad trips"


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OfflineSheepish
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1485393 - 04/23/03 09:41 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It really just differs from person to person. What's pleasurable for one person, is painful or terrifying for another. All a matter of perception. It's possible they were afraid; they felt like they were losing their mind (in a way, they were, but not everyone can lie back and accept this), it's all very frightening to them.
It's a similar situation around here... A while ago I was asking people whether or not they were going hunting for shrooms this year, but the general reaction was that most people were afraid of them. Perhaps it's because they have a lack of understanding? That they kind of expect it to be just another drug like alcohol and pot, which are far more predictable and easier to handle.
You must certainly have to be brave! And have an open mind too, and even the people who view it as a party drug are able to gain enlightenment from it. I think some people just get overwhelmed by the amount of information and thoughts that can pop up on a shroom trip. If only they learnt to let go :wink: 


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Invisibleperuvian spark
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1485433 - 04/23/03 10:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No psychedelic by itself can bring about permanent enlightenment. All psychedelic substances can do is show us the doorway to enlightenment, just give us a taste of what it might be like. It's up to us alone to decide whether we want to take the next step, and at that point you will have no need for psychedelic help anyway.
Your friends are just scared of what they don't know.


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"The only unchangeable certainty is that nothing is certain and everything is changeable."


Edited by peruvian spark (04/23/03 10:16 AM)


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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: peruvian spark]
    #1485449 - 04/23/03 10:29 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

>>All psychedelic substances can do is show us the doorway to enlightenment, just give us a taste of what it might be like.

I have to disagree. Two years ago I would have said the same thing; but psychedelics are simply doses of chemicals that affect your perceptions. They CAN help you gain insight to the nature of consciousness itself...but enlightenment is not a dose or induced experience; to be free of samsaric existence and to strip ourselves of our mind's delusions is something only we ourselves can do. The Buddha always taught that he could not enlighten anyone; he could only show you the way. It is up to the individual to meditate and practice Dharma in order to set themself free.

To think we can just take psychedelics long enough and one day we'll suddenly become enlightened is misleading. Psychedelics are great tools, don't get me wrong...if it wasn't for weed and lsd, my interest in meditation would have never taken root. But now that I've been meditating consistently for two years I have to say that my sober practices are far more rewarding and "real." I've reached such beautiful states of mind in my meditations that no psychedelic experience can even begin to approach.

See them for what they are; tools to be induced into different realms of consciousness and a means to take a "first hand tour" of your mind and how it perceives the sensory world...but do not mistake the psychedelic experience for enlightenment...they are two very different things. Enlightenment is acheived through dedicated motivation and altruistic states of mind being put into daily practice...not just while you're "high."

Love & Light,

Boppity


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Offlinethelox
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Boppity604]
    #1485480 - 04/23/03 10:42 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I completely agree with you Boppity. I used to do like 7 gram doses
once or twice a month for about a year. I found myself almost feeling like I needed my fix
so I said I wouldn't let myself do shrooms again until my next (21st) birthday which is in june.
that was about 4 months ago. I've been focusing more on my dreams since then
and a had a lucid dream albeit breif the clarity was amazing. I've started a dream journal and am trying this route
to better understand myself. Although I do think I am going to take shrooms on my birthday
which is in June.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1485668 - 04/23/03 12:09 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I would think that the state of enlightenment would be very close to the psychedelic experience. Very close. But then I am not enlightened, so I don't know.

The thing about it is, the more "awake" you are, the more "awake" the people around you become.

Can you imagine what would happen if everyone on earth tripped at the same time? When I think about a "global awakening", that's how I'd imagine it to be.


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Offlinebiglo
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Revelation]
    #1485712 - 04/23/03 12:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, you can't buy enlightenment, peace, and understanding for $5 a hit.  Neither does new clothes or a car or happiness.  It's up to a person to do the work.  You may reach nirvana one night, but you still have to wake up to reality in the morning.  The whole world tripping? That would be one hell of a sight!  Hehe someone would say aliens are invading the world and mass panic would ensue!! hehe, shhhh!!! Don't give the government any ideas!  :grin: 


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OfflineTonearm
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: biglo]
    #1485755 - 04/23/03 12:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Great thread! I've read a bit about this subject and it's very interesting. From what I can gather, the psychedelic experience IS enlightenment. The thing is, it's temporary. Some people hang onto their ego as they are forced through the door and that can cause problems. This was all clearly stated in Ram Dass's "Be Here Now".

Also, in a review of "Zig Zag Zen" the writer closes with the following:
"
But there are others -- Alan Watts was one -- who say that either road will get you there. Once when I saw Watts speak at an Esalen-sponsored seminar, he was asked a question on this very topic. "Which way is the best way to achieve enlightenment," the person asked, "through meditation or psychedelic drugs?"

Watts laughed a little and thought for a moment, then said, "Well, I don't know about a 'best' way, but perhaps you want to think of it like this, you can walk to New York or you can fly."
"

This review is online here:
http://www.salon.com/books/review/2002/07/11/badiner/

Meditation seems to be the path to "true" (i.e. permanent) enlightenment, but the psychedelic experience is said to be a temporary experience of enlightenment.

Also, in "Be Here Now" Ram Dass tells his story of going to India with LSD. When he gave it to some devout meditators there, they responded with "Good, but not as good as meditation." When he found a man whom was a kind of spiritual master (an enlightened being I suppose), he asked for the LSD and when he took it absolutely nothing happened.


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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Revelation]
    #1485829 - 04/23/03 01:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

>>Can you imagine what would happen if everyone on earth tripped at the same time? When I think about a "global awakening", that's how I'd imagine it to be.

I would love to see that happen...only problem is...there will always be those people who will either be intimidated or reject such altruistic experience...though a global trip might definitely bring that number of people into a much smaller minority.  :smile:

Love & Light,

Boppity 


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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Tonearm]
    #1485839 - 04/23/03 01:09 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

>>Also, in a review of "Zig Zag Zen" the writer closes with the following:

I have that book on my wishlist over at Amazon.com. I'll definitely pick it up next month.

My point was that while psychedelics can definitely teach us things about our mind, it is up to us to act upon those lessons and make the permanent changes in our behaviors to reach enlightenment. I can only speak for myself but in my experiences so far...psychedelics have only served as tools to help my sober meditations advance further.

Love & Light,

Boppity


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OfflineMike Elium
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1487075 - 04/23/03 07:46 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with everybody's comments. I just felt compelled to add some thoughts I have had, off and on.

Any tool can be used correctly, or abused. It's all what you do with it. This holds true of tools that have the potential to lead you to an expanded viewpoint or reality

Years ago I had a GF who was so into transcendental meditation that she lost sight of applying it to the goal of enlightenment, and TM became the focus itself.... like some "religious" fanatics who cease to be truly religious. Instead of making her a better person, she was solely and selfishly fanatical about the practice itself, often to the detriment of those around her.

Similarly, some people take psychedelics to just get as out of their mind as possible .....i.e., wasted. After the experience, they can be the same unenlightened assholes as before it. I remember reading a story recounted by a tripped-out guy who accidentally caused someone else nearby a physical injury while tripping, but didn't care, never helped the person, just kept on rockin'. Intuitively, that does not seem to be enlightened.....we've all seen drunks behave this way.

From a meditative viewpoint, a step leading to enlightenment is that moment when your self is suspended, and the tiny voice that is always talking to you inside your head stops, leaving you with great clarity.....as Buddhist monks say, ultimately, the Clear Light. The psychedelic enlightenment is similar, to suspend the sense of self and see a greater picture of reality.....though it is a somewhat more "violent" approach than pure unaided and calmer meditation. For some reason, though, in either case, this suspension of self and view of a wider reality produces an unparalleled pleasureful feeling......you know.... All is One.....the feeling that we are part of a far greater whole.

Once we have achieved these glimpses into a greater reality, it seems to me that true enlightenment means that you would use this greater awareness to make the world somehow a better place (geeeeez, I sound like a freakin' MISS AMERICA CONTESTANT !!!!). But I do mean it, because achieving this only for your own pleasure and not applying it to the benefit of others seems to me to be, in the end, somewhat selfish, even wasteful.



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your inside is out, and your outside is in.


Edited by Mike Elium (04/25/03 09:04 PM)


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OfflineAbFab
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1487102 - 04/23/03 07:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i don't know if i would call the feeling that i get "enlightenment", i prefer the term clarity. it's like i am suddenly in a state that i am able to really pay attention to my thoughts and really listen to myself. i don't feel as enlightened as i do aware. Maybe some people just arent ready to be truly aware of the world around them, as for me, i love the clarity.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1487188 - 04/23/03 08:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I always viewed the mushroom as turning off certain filters in the brain. That is why the walls can move and breath, colors can shift, sounds can become larger, and all of the other neat effects. The filters that our mind uses to define reality are loosened while we trip. For some people, the new perspective changes the way they experience life. For others, it is just a cool feeling to enjoy at the next party.


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Offlinef8L
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Seuss]
    #1487367 - 04/23/03 10:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I would have to disagree with Boppity604

Quote:


They CAN help you gain insight to the nature of consciousness itself...but enlightenment is not a dose or induced experience





I find this a very interesting subject. You noted, "It is up to the individual to meditate and practice Dharma." I suggest you read the book Rational Mysticism . The book explains how spiritual experiences obtained through meditation in the brain (namely, the frontal lobe) are similiar to those changes during psychedlic use. The book is extremely well written and insightful... Everyone should check it out.


Edited by f8L (04/23/03 10:04 PM)


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Offlinekaptain_karma
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: f8L]
    #1487403 - 04/23/03 10:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think shrooms give people a new way of looking at the world. This alone does not lead to enlightenment, but learning to see the world from different and new perspectives definitely probably doesn't hurt on the road to enlightenment. Shrooms also provide a feeling awe at being connected to the universe. For me at least, that has been an enlightening experience.
So to put it shortly, shrooms won't bring about enlightenment, but they can be a useful tool in searching for enlightenment.


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OfflineVats of Blood
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: kaptain_karma]
    #1488947 - 04/24/03 12:11 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i agree with peruvian spark about psychedelics only showing you the door to enlightenment. when i tripped with my friend whos a vegan, he completely convinced me to become a vegetarian. the shrooms arent going to make me a vegetarian, but they did make me realize that i dont want to eat meat anymore. now its just up to me to put forth the work to actually stop eating meat.


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Offlinetheotherpnut
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1490986 - 04/24/03 10:06 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've put much thought into this topic. And I have to say I have many opinions on it. Two stand out, one has already been drawn out in this thread. The other main opinion I have is that there is an infinite amount of perceivable phenomena in nature, and we humans have a filter which only allows us to see things that are "important" to us, and the rest doesn't get noticed, or gets ground down in familiarity. This filter and your ego mutually construct and define one another. When ingesting a mind altering substance your "filter" is changed and different parts of the infinite are noticed. When your filter gets changed so much your ego has nothing to define it, resulting in ego loss. This is like a baby experiencing a new filter, but can you call it enlightenment? I don't think so,  I understand that through enlightenment all attachments to and by your ego are severed. In experiencing  a new filter you have no time to define your ego nor make attachments to the new phenomona. In both mindsets you need to overturn the part of "you" that wants to connect "itself" to phenomena. Under the influence of psychedelic drugs it is harder to overturn this mechanism as it has no distinguishable manifestations, if you went long enough in this new mind set a new ego would form and the process of enlightenment could proceed again. So in conclusion this theory says that the psychedelic expierience is just a facade of true enlighentment.  Did that make any sense? :confused:
 


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Offlinedomite
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: theotherpnut]
    #1491679 - 04/25/03 02:20 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i like waht the previous poster just said...

but i still kind of disagree...

i put it like this: psycadelics are the telescope with wich you can view truth, but meditation is the pathway that takes you there.

corny, i know, but it sums up my beliefs on the subject.


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OfflineSombie
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1492028 - 04/25/03 05:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

When you trip, I feel that you are simply thinking in a completely diffrent and new way, without the outside influences you get when in the sober state of mind.

I think of tripping as a boost, but it is most important to continue on this path when sober.

When you trip your mind is flooded with so much information that you can not handle it all, it is very simular to being a newborn baby. That, added with the mind-fuck that acid gives (sorry, I haven't tried shrooms yet, only acid) means your going to have some FUCKED UP ideas when your tripping.

once you come down, it is important to continue thinking about life, for me I have noticed that I have made the most progress the few days following my trips.



So to sum up: yes psychedellics can help, but you have to think while your sober as well.


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OfflineTonearm
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Sombie]
    #1493928 - 04/25/03 06:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Sombie- For me it seems like NOT thinking is the real key. I'm doing my best to go beyond language and thought and try to just "be" with a blank mind instead. Does anyone agree?


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