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Offlinehpnotiq
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why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating?
    #3770402 - 02/12/05 10:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Why do most ppl who talk about doing it to experience or to see new things or who are spiritual just dont try meditating or trying to get into that state on their own? which is probably better, healthier, and different.


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Invisiblegdman
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: hpnotiq]
    #3770409 - 02/12/05 10:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

they can be a great tool in that, I wouldn't say it's any better, different... or healthier. They can be used as a great tool in meditation, they are but a catalyst used to dissolve the normal filters of perception.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: hpnotiq]
    #3770410 - 02/12/05 10:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know, you tell me.


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Invisiblegdman
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: Anno]
    #3770414 - 02/12/05 10:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
I don't know, you tell me.





It's a personal descison, some people like their filters a little too much.


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OfflineCirclesongs
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: hpnotiq]
    #3770476 - 02/12/05 11:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Agreed. But sometimes I like to take the express train to the brain. Althouh my trips are 1-2 times a year so I fill in the xtra space with meditating and excersing 3-4 days a week. Working out is a great way to say focused, relaxed and alert.


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OfflineHambo
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: hpnotiq]
    #3770512 - 02/12/05 11:59 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Meditation?.. Isn't that when you just sit there and sort of not do anything for ages on end. I tried doing that for a while and found it excruciatingly boring, and being a bit hyper by nature.. it set my nerves off. The only thing I allow that comes close to meditation for me is long motorbike jaunts in beautiful countryside.

I guess everyone has something they do to clear their minds and create space, I might be wrong but I doubt if anyone on these boards is just a constant dribbling tripper. To me, psychedelics are a different thing maybe.


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OfflineTMonk
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: hpnotiq]
    #3770563 - 02/12/05 12:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

hpnotiq said:
Why do most ppl who talk about doing it to experience or to see new things or who are spiritual just dont try meditating or trying to get into that state on their own? which is probably better, healthier, and different.





I like taking psychadelic drugs because they can take me to places in my mind that I would never come across without them. There are thoughts to think and conclusions to make that I (personally) couldn't reach without the use of these types of drugs. I'm also an energetic, high-strung person in general so meditating is hard for me. If you can probe into similar depths of your mind without ingesting a hallucinogen, more power to ya


--------------------
"Let me tell some one about this dream:
The sky was filled with stars,
while the sun,
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And eleven moons
ran across the rainbows
above me and you..."
-One Rainy Wish


Edited by TMonk (02/12/05 12:43 PM)


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: TMonk]
    #3770733 - 02/12/05 01:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

mmm i had a similar discussion on another forum a few days back...

i think both meditation and psychedelics go hand in hand...
on compliments the other...

we all have our little rituals that help us get to the right frame of mind (set and setting) to take the psychedelic and we all have our ways to take our moments to ponder the things experianced during
the trip...

i believe both meditation and psychedelics can aid in our spiritual development but have an added value when combined.

or if some1 only mediated he/she will never be able to experiance what the heads do...

but if one only uses psychedelics and never meditates, the experiance will not be properly evaluated.

for the purpose of this comment anything would do for meditation.
simply getting stoned and daydreaming to that bikeride to taking yoga classes etc...
this assumes meditation is indeed nothing more then taking a moment to sort trough your shit...


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #3770744 - 02/12/05 01:55 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

heres something from the other forum...
(the rest is in dutch so dont bother asking for the url)
Quote:


Medicated versus meditated

On thinking, worrying, fear, consciousness, enlightenment and the lost link to psychedelics.


Our human civilization has achieved many great things, we assume we?ve putted a man on the moon, we travel the skies, build gigantic structures and have the ability to destroy with intensities unknown to all other earthly species. For all of this we have to thank our consciousness.

But is our consciousness unique? What makes our consciousness and us different from other species? Well a lot of other, if not all species are conscious. But still, somehow something makes us different. We are able to think to ourselves and about ourselves in words, making us self-aware! It is language together with the development of the human brain that gave us these powers. We can, by thinking to ourselves in our mind, asses the outcomes of certain actions, and by the possible outcome choose the best action for the situation. This is called rationality.

We have an ability that goes beyond remembering what was, or what is, we can predict what is going to be! A lion stalking prey does not plan ahead of things, he is stalking prey, and as he is, he responds to the immediate actions of the prey and other signals from his surroundings and anticipates to these with actions. If you ask a (smart) person to do something he?ll do this with a plan in mind, he has thought up the best cause of action based on his and all human experiences and his predictions and acts according to this plan.

This ability to think ahead gave us a major advantage on the other organisms on earth, we may not have the most sophisticated sensors, quickest pace, strongest mussels, or sharpest claws, no, but still we can outsmart every single creature on this planet. And even more important we can share and pass knowledge among each other, building vast reserves of collective knowledge.

But it also carries disadvantages. Are we the happiest creatures on earth? Probably not. Our thinking made us forget about the core of our being, we are to busy thinking about something else that the quality to observe the here and now and to experience objectively has became less and less and possibly lost.

A dog would never consider suicide!
Why not? Because he experiences everything from his pure core of self- being in his present. He is not worried about what other dogs think, he does not need to worry about looking good, he acts and reacts and needs not do anything more. While we with our ability to think often create problems that aren?t even problems yet. We are caught up in a web of thought all the time, and if half of me is busy listening to the reasoning voice in my head this half is unable to be aware of the problems in the here and now and I am only partly conscious.

I strongly believe that our brain has originated as a weapon to always reduce damage instead of gain profit. We in our evolution of awareness have learned to always expect the worst and to reason in order to prevent failure.

Our thinking is aimed at preventing failure and threats. So if we think ahead of things into possible situations we will ?predict? the future in a negative way. We will expect failure and think hard to prevent it.

Any sense of threat to the self triggers fear. Excessive thinking of failure is basically worrying, and worrying is basically useless.
Thinking easily leads to worrying and worrying is the thinking about the possible threat to the self, and this triggers a form of fear. Fear based on thought is fear of the nonexistent, in a way that it is fear of things that might become but aren?t yet, not fear triggered by threat to the physical self by responses from the environment, but reasoned fear to the psychological self triggered by thought. So we needlessly create wrong fear. This very rational fear is not a useful form of fear.

Healthy fear in nature has as it?s purpose to prepare the animal for emergency responses to threatening situations. It prepares the animal to flee and safe its life. But if the fear is based on a thought there is nothing to flee from! And thus the threat can not be resolved and will only become more intimidating. The worrying will increase in intensity and subsequently increasing fear.

We?ve become caught up in a spiral of negative thought and self-induced fears, that will continue until we respond to it with action. Often actions produced by rational fears are bad actions. This is what keeps us from being happy.

Just because we have the gift of being able to think does not mean we need to use this gift all the time.
The gift seems to come with a price, we got addicted to thinking.

Many ancient people must have understood this relationship between thinking, fear and happiness. Religions are often aimed at achieving happiness by going back to the experiencing core of objective self- being. Techniques that are often used are mediation and the constant vocal repetition of mantras (which are a collection of words or sounds) which clear the mind from all other thoughts except the mantra itself.

Mantras are in effect more or less the same as music, they distract our minds from excessive thinking, inducing temporally happiness by preventing worrying, but mantras are not the solution.

Meditation is a solution. Through meditations one practices to experience what is being sensed without thinking about it. And it is here that lightning struck me. It is said that when one has fully mastered the art of thinking nothing and experiencing everything he or she has become enlightened and has in his self being found all the answers to all questions. That person has tapped into the inner resource to infinite knowledge. As Buddha more or less said: desire nothing and turn into the true self to find truth.

If this is enlightenment, then I have been enlightened before. People that have never experienced the psychedelic experience will have a very hard time following my trail of thought from now on.

One who takes psychedelics induces in himself a state in which his ego eventually will completely vanish from his self. If a person becomes fearful after taking psychedelics it is because he is trying to safe his ego and refuses to let go of what he thinks himself to be, this is called a bad trip.

What is your ego? Ego is everything you think to be. When your ego is gone, only the pure ?you? remains: The breathing, heart beating, sensing you. Everything you experience after ego-death has originated purely in the true you. You don?t think anymore, you don?t worry, nothing remains to worry about, you know everything, you feel like a endless amount of knowledge from within your self has been released into you in a way that there is nothing you could possible worry about. Than you become an objective ?experiencer?.
Things become what they truly are: Red is pure red, water becomes water, rain is rain and nothing else, you are doing nothing more except experiencing being you in the here and now. You are truly happy. You have become Buddha! You are now enlightened! But only for 4 hours or so?

The ancient must have known this also, for in all great ancient cultures references to natural psychedelic substances have been indicated, with the holy Soma being the most relevant example.

Why go true endless meditations if enlightenment can be so easily achieved by eating something?
And there most be a difference, because if there is no difference between psychedelics and mediation there would be no meditation.

Well, mediation is basically learning to control your brain chemistry. When you meditate you activate certain brain parts while shutting down others. Activating brain parts is biologically done by inducing biochemical molecules to adhere to certain brain receptors.

So, in short, a meditating yogi has, inside of his body, by control of mind over matter, stimulated certain glands to produce psycho-active compounds, that adhere to his receptors putting him in a psychedelic state of being, leading eventually to enlightenment.

When one takes psychedelic substances to him that originated outside his body, the effect is pretty much the same, but the difference is that a person that has become enlightened this way, by external psychedelics, is unable to willingly control his own biochemistry and thus will only be enlightened for as long as the psycho-active molecules he ingested remain inside his body. In other words, the effect wears off. And the mind body control is not present. But the happiness induced by true self-awareness during and immediately after a trip is still a wonderful taste of what others undoubtedly have achieved by mediations and what is possibly for all of us.

Ralph
16-12-03




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-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
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OfflineSterile
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: hpnotiq]
    #3771399 - 02/12/05 05:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

When i meditate, my spirit always seems to travel to high mountains, full of mushrooms...


--------------------
The Source Of The Force
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"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
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OfflineDeviate
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: Sterile]
    #3772265 - 02/12/05 11:45 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

i use psychedelics because they induce feelings which i can't quite seem to get to with meditation.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: hpnotiq]
    #3772430 - 02/13/05 01:02 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Our everyday (every day....every day) experience with life leads to complacency.

Spiritual transformation can require intense emotions, intense experiences, intense Encounters. Fungi can potentially assist in this way; fungi provide the possibility of a turning point in life because something different, something awe-full occurs.

Meditation reaches an extremely small percentage of humanity, just as mushrooms do. This, perhaps, explains why most of us come off as half-dead robots to one another. Most of us are in fact not awake. We're sleeping and want to be wakened .


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OfflineBorgFace
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: hpnotiq]
    #3772654 - 02/13/05 02:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Enlightenment through meditation requires discipline.

Enough said?

Well maybe not. In this world of multimedia immersion/saturation we are exposed to thousands of small, short-term programmes. This contributes to the development of short attention spans, and hence the inability to focus on one thing for more than a few moments. Some people are just so constantly wired they couldn't, and probably wouldn't, explore the innermost depths of meditation.

Also, buddhists and the like don't see any value in visions and hallucinations (or so I read, somewhere?) so you're trying to appeal to a completely different crowd. A good majority of the people here do psychedelics purely because it fucks them up, but then again who are we to judge their choices? We should accept, no rejoice, in the fact that they have rejected a life of mediochre consciousness and made a step towards self-actualization even if it isn't immediately apparent.


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Give me an ounce of civet, good apothecary, to sweeten my imagination!


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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: hpnotiq]
    #3774447 - 02/13/05 04:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"Better" is a pretty subjective term . . .


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #3774850 - 02/13/05 06:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Our everyday (every day....every day) experience with life leads to complacency.




now theres an interesting point.

what is there to oppose complacency?


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OfflineBorgFace
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #3774952 - 02/13/05 06:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The will to oppose complacency.

There is nothing that will "do it for you".

Borg.


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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #3774955 - 02/13/05 06:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
"Better" is a pretty subjective term . . .




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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: delta9]
    #3775037 - 02/13/05 07:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The will to oppose complacency.

There is nothing that will "do it for you".




yes but dont u need some kind of impulse to 'rouse' u out of it?...
there has to be something to motivate you to make this desicion...
i guess what im asking what is there to inspire us...?


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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #3775199 - 02/13/05 07:36 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Well, my inspiration is that unless I continue with the path I am on I will fall back into that life of complacency and intellectual mediochrity.

It's like vegan food, at first you think you'd never be able to give up meat but if you stick with it for a while it actually increases the variety and palatability of foods you can enjoy.


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Re: why use psychedelics and not try to self-induced a better experience like meditating? [Re: BorgFace]
    #3777205 - 02/14/05 04:16 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I will admit that Im just too lazy to meditate. Shrooms bring me to that state for a solid six hours without any real work. I cant say Im proud of being super lazy, but Im also not proud of a number of things I do. Im a moral cesspool...but at least Im self-aware and understand my situation. I try not to let my lack of morality get in the way of fulfilling my life though.


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