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InvisibleKid
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The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment
    #483599 - 12/07/01 11:29 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

The search for Enlightenment through the Psychedelic Experience mediated by psychoactive drugs represents the search for the True meaning of Eastern esoterica, now lost to all, but hopefully rediscovered through Western rationality.

How postmodern, and paradoxical.


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Offlineegolesss
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #483623 - 12/07/01 11:54 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Nothing is rational about what we search for......


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: egolesss]
    #483632 - 12/08/01 12:04 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

?
I never said anything about the (ir)rationality of what is being searched for (enlightenment) but that the tool with which it is being searched for is rationality.


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OfflineMarleyBob
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #483694 - 12/08/01 02:00 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Yah hopefully, for you.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #484141 - 12/08/01 04:27 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Having been tripping since the late 60's, I know of no one who had any permanent realization from psychedelics. We all believed it at the time, but seems it was just a mirage.

Society started to change for the better, then shifted back to the old ways.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #484236 - 12/08/01 06:21 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

> I know of no one who had any permanent realization from psychedelics

Yeah, I wish you would tell more people that. I think most younger people think that they're destined to find something.

Thanks for actually having something intelligent to say.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #484456 - 12/08/01 10:39 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

On a positive note: Some people claim to change their lives when used in a religious and / or ritualistic manner, such as the Native American Church with peyote or Santo Daime with ayahuasca.

However just ingesting the largest amount of drugs that you (think you) can handle will definitely NOT do it. McKenna was a very interesting writer and avid psychedelic spelunker, yet admitted to no great wisdom.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblecantara
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #484483 - 12/08/01 11:05 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Swami

On 99% of the posts I see you post, I agree with you, but here I have to disagree with you - I am doing it on principle and not on firsthand knowledge, because I wasn't here since the late sixties, but my question for you is - you say that you haven't seen anyone obtain a long-term benefit or insight from psychedelics (I forget now the exact word/phrase you used) - let me ask you to clarify, do you mean to say that there is basically NO potential for that, aside from the religious/spiritual setting? If you believe there is none, that really surprises me, and I'd like to know how/why I am deluding myself when I think there is a potential. If there *is* a potential, but simultaneously you are saying that the psychedelics in fact never produced those results, then you must imply that everyone you have ever known used them in the "incorrect' way, that is, used them in a way in which benefits were not forthcoming?



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---- Cantara

[green]Shroomism, please don't delete this thread![/green]


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: cantara]
    #484501 - 12/08/01 11:30 PM (15 years, 3 days ago)

I think its a good time to have a look at the writings and ideas of avid-psychedelic-exponent Aldous Huxley. He believes that psychedelics give a person access to the antipodies of their mind - where they can access and witness the time-less environment of the spirit world and see the 'stone-like' faces of those who inhabit this 'otherness' .
The BIG point that he makes is that although we can experience this other world or reality and have profound experiences in it, we cannot fully comprehend or understand these experiences, simply because we are still viewing these experiences through the humanised/ego-driven mindset of the material world.


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Offlinefelixhigh
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #486665 - 12/11/01 12:22 AM (15 years, 1 day ago)

i like huxley a lot...
and i think that some subject who is unable to learn from good psychedelics (shrooms, aya, mescaline) must be a limited person or is denying what have actually learnt. this rehab/anonymous narcotic babble pisses me off.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: felixhigh]
    #486760 - 12/11/01 01:48 AM (15 years, 1 day ago)

> and i think that some subject who is unable to learn from good psychedelics

I just think it's ironic (and paradoxical) what the psychedelic knowledge quest represents. The Eastern 'wise man' (yogi, buddhist monk) has long been a minor heroic figure in Western culture. I think people who are searching for Enlightenment from psychedelic drugs are trying to recapture those Eastern mystical secrets within a scientific framework.

The external discourse is about chemicals, effects, categories (tryptamines, etc.) but within that framework, at the junction of the chemical and the mind, is the Eastern esoteric framework of Enlightenment and spiritual growth. The two symbols, once thought to be opposite of each other, have merged.

It makes me wonder why.

> this rehab/anonymous narcotic babble pisses me off.

Who's been saying anything about that in this thread?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #488369 - 12/12/01 07:39 AM (15 years, 8 hours ago)

As for me, it was Heavenly Blue Morning Glories and Sandoz Psilocybin in 1971 that began my Psychedelic Pilgrimage. Contrary to your contention, psychedelics were the change agents that changed me permanently from a scientific positivist and crude materialist into a seeker.

Enlightenement should not be compared one to another, rather, before and after. I sought the religious structures to help define my mystical experiences, that I might better convey their distilled meanings to others. Psychedelics paved the way for my path from medical studies to philosophy, theology and psychology over the last 30 years, and I am still enthusiastic! I would say that psychedelic-initiated changes have been "permanent" in my experience, and that there is clearly a pre- and post-enlightenment personality change.
Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #488440 - 12/12/01 10:37 AM (15 years, 5 hours ago)

I think that is wonderful that you were positively affected.

I remember that in the late 60's to early 70's, one could hitchike almost anywhere and be guaranteed of a ride. There was a child-like innocence and love that was freely shared.

Now, straights and even ardent "hippies' are terrifed to either ask for or offer a ride.

I will most certainly agree that this is a very minor piece of society to point to, but it is an example of moving from openness to fear. This would not be possible if a large-scale mental / emotional shift had happened. Perhaps a better example would be the metal (gun) detectors installed at many schools. Obviously this is not the "fault" of psychedelics, but wiht some 28% of the populace admitting to having indulged, one would expcect some societal shift in the positive.

On an individual level, would you say that you have known many more people that burned out or got "fried" on pyschedelics rather than those who walked in a different light?

Don't get me wrong. I am endlessly fascinated by pyschedelics, er excuse me, entheogens. However, I stand by my point, that mere ingestion of a significant amount of a psychotropic substance (even if one is "blown away") does not equal permanent change. (How many Dead-Heads does it take to change a light bulb?)

Because your heart led you to the role of seeker, I believe that you would have changed with or wtihout these substances.

I think this generally false expectation (of enlightenment) may lead to disappointment and even depression in many.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: cantara]
    #488454 - 12/12/01 10:54 AM (15 years, 4 hours ago)

do you mean to say that there is basically NO potential for that..

I merely said that I had observed none in myself and the small societal cross-section callled "my friends and acquaintences". I still find psychedelics interesting and also still struggle with issues such as depression and life purpose.

It just seems as if one is always "just on the verge" of some great discovery. Like perhaps next time one will "get it".

Read some of the posts from people here that have tripped hundreds of times and tell me if they seem spiritually/ emotionally advanced over non-trippers?

Many will tell you that they became aware of whole new worlds, yet their daily life remains unaffected.

Share with us what permanent changes you have observed from tripping? Or do you too think that "Maybe the next trip" will do it for you?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinejimmyvengeance
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #488481 - 12/12/01 11:41 AM (15 years, 4 hours ago)

I disagree with you, but I think you've hit on an interesting point. I would argue that the often short-lived nature of psychedelic enlightenment is actually a testament to one of its better qualities: it's temporary. Psychedelics can offer people enlightenment, while they're on 'em, but these realizations must be integrated into daily life before they can be truly useful. And this integration process is just as boring and arduous as any other self-help scheme. Very few people follow through. My question is, so what? Just because the larger part of the populace can't capitalize on its positive experiences, should we be daunted? No, of course not.
For me, psychedelics have offered temporary glimpses of enlightenment, if you fancy that term. They haven't tossed my life onto a dramatically new path, but they have opened some doors which may have otherwise stayed shut. It's been positive.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #488561 - 12/12/01 01:10 PM (15 years, 2 hours ago)

So in this way, psychedelic drugs were the door ;-) within Western rationality that led to the mysticism.

The microscope essentially pointing at the unknown Eastern phenomenon, and abandoned?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #489561 - 12/13/01 07:42 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I was dismayed last night, when viewing the new Star Trek project - Enterprise. A research team was exposed to a "psychotropic pollen," grew paranoid and began hallucinating beings who morphed out of rock. None of the crew seemed to have had any experience with 'tripping' in that future reference. I had hoped that the influece of the great 'Psychedelic Experiment' in the 20th century would've been recognized by some small passing comment on the episode.

I remember only one real acid casualty while yet in high school. He seemed to be on Thorazine by the way he looked and moved. I was alone in my serious psychedelic sainthood. Most trips in cold, grey, loney wooded areas, if not in my room at home.

I cannot comment on the societal picture. I am completely convinced that a large experiment was taking place on society. I grew up within sight of Sandoz Pharmaceuticals, E. Hanover, NJ, and literally millions of little blue acid tabs 'left' that facility. Whenever I made deliveries for my Father's company to that place, the guards always smiled at this, then long-haired boy, and said "Have a nice trip!" Real seekers are few and far between - always. Acid by itself would not turn one's psyche from the world of American fast-car, hyper-sexualized society to inner vision-based Reality alone. You may be right about developing without psychedelics, but then, I never had the energy to persist at meditation, or the loosening of my 2nd chakra preoccupations without the energy supplied by those substances. When the energy receded, I was back identified with the lower three chakras (into ceremonial magic which was As If it was all about the Crowleyan Will at the 3rd chakra), and struggling to Be in the 4th chakra, and its deeper counterpart - the Heart Cave. So it is difficult to say just how integral the psychedelics were. Even recently, an acquaintance took a few grams of mushroom for the first time, and, as you say, he was dissapointed that he hadn't become Enlightened. I was astounded at his incredible naivete - he's in his 30's.

A very very helpful 'gratuitous grace,' as Huxley called them, psychedelics can provide the needed energy in deLIGHTful, colorful ways, to fuel inner disciplines and devotions. A secular or profane attitude will prohibit higher experiences, while expectations plus appropriate preparation can "occasion" (Huston Smith's term) mystical experience. One just doen't lust after big bucks and a big Mercedes when one has seen the Big Picture.

Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #489566 - 12/13/01 07:52 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Not abandoned. Enlightenment is a forever-receding horizen. Transcendence is dynamic, it is 'further' than where one is at the moment, yet paradoxically, it is immanent IN the moment. Psychedelics are like climbing a tree in the woods to see where one has to go, coming down, and continuing the effort to go further. They give you far sight, or foresight, or vision. It would seem that one's microscope or telescope or whatever instrument, defines the nature of one's quest. Such instruments are one's chosen religious tradition. If an appropriate tradition does not exist, one may have to modify an existing one to accomodate one's new found visions.
Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #490130 - 12/13/01 07:19 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I've read all of this thread an have a few comments. One may gain valuable knowledge or perspective without achieving or experiencing "enlightenment." I disagree with the notion that people think they are gaining knowledge but then they lose it. Well, that's probably the case in a lot of instances, because it's easy to revert to more conventional and consensus understanding. If one quits psychedelics, sure, a decade or two or three later one may have forgotten the lessons learned as well.

I can say that I've already learned a lot through Salvia Divinorum. I've had apparent after-death experiences and trembled in the void. I learned first hand that there's something outside the envelope of what reality is supposed to be. It's made me reevaluate everything, and I've gone from being a farily hardcore atheist to learning towards mystical beliefs. If I never smoke it again or do any other psychedelic, and I chose to tread a conventional route, play the game, I too will probably forget. But one doesn't have to stop.

Also, I don't think it looks bad for psychedelic awareness that the world wasn't permanently improved by the wave of psychedelics taking in the 60's. The government stepped in and illegalized LSD specifically because it was "creating non-conformists." Had the psychedelic movement been handled properly, and developed instead of being squelched, and if people were able to smoke bud on a regular basis, I think hitchhiking might still be pretty safe.

gotta run;.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #490526 - 12/14/01 01:16 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

It sounds like existentialism to me. Enlightenment is a transcendence of human awareness, or at least, normal human awareness, but of course it is a process within consciousness itself. It seems as though, Enlightenment were the realization that one can "cast off" the specific human awareness (or parts, or most of it) and become more directly involved with the transcendant consciousness (paradoxically, by experiencing less).


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