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 Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
 
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,924
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 9 hours, 50 minutes
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment  [Re: Kid]
#504802 - 12/30/01 01:00 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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There are many different levels and definitions of enlightenment.
Basically, when I say "enlightenment" I mean the recognition that you should live your life with peace and love as your motivation as much as possible.
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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:50 PM)
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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#504930 - 12/30/01 02:49 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Now i'll reply to Swami(you really should change your name to "Devils Advocate" for the shroomery ;))
I am hardly contrary just to be argumentative. Usually if I agree with a point, I will not respond. The Devil does not appreciate my comments. He likes ignorance! :)
I agree. This was a big part of the problem, but police and governent harassment also threw a BIG monkey wrench in the gears as well
Illegality only speaks to accessability, not efficacy.
Look at the monsters today in the pro body-building world. These guys are enormous and yet the most powerful androgenous(muscle-building) subtsances are totally illegal.
Another point, when I was growing up there was no common knowledge of ayahuasca; shroom spores were not generally available and growing them usually resulted in failure as the methods were not refined; dealers usually only had shrooms seasonally in very limited amounts, if at all; XTC, 2CB, 2C-T7,2C-T2, AMT, 5MEO-DMT, 5ME0-DIPT, etc were unheard of. One could not order dried mescaline-bearing cactus, mushroom spores and ayahusaca supplies over the net.
Basically, though still illegal, one has more options than ever before. Like most everyone else, I drifted away from pyschotropics on my own, not due to any media brain-washing. That is only effective before-the-fact, not after one has tripped.
Most of the people who used them at first were using them for personal and spritual enlightnment tools.
Perhaps, but we only know about the published works of the people of that time who tended to be deep thinkers and not reflective of the masses. My experiences started in the early '70s so I can only speak of my friends during that time. There was little philosophical talk, it was more of a let's "get high" type of attitude. My experiences were quite powerful and remain some of the milestones of my life. My point is: that my acid-head friends have found life to be as difficult, if not moredifficult than my straight friends.
As to me comparing the hippies to today's youth, sure there are cultural differences, but reading the newsgroup messges tells me that not all that much of importance has changed in attitudes.
Remember that Woodstock was one giant party, not a religious revival. Same with the Grateful Dead concerts.
Using your car analogy, one cannot ignore the accidents
along the way. There is danger with pyschedelic explorations and to ignore that or pretend it doesn't exist is foolhardy. These substabnces are nowhere near as dangerous as D.A.R.E paints them, nor nowhere near as safe as proponents declare.
but if you have a fairly solid life paradigm, you can always keep your eye on the prize and be able to understand what's going on a little better.
It is impossible to know what the prize is. As to control, methinks you are not seriously "experienced" as Jimi Hendrix put it. Try a medium dosage of ayahuasca (considered by many to be the most spiritual entheogen) and tell me how much control you had.
They had a mission, and that mission was to slowly change public opinion on these chemicals in a negative way.
Could not agree more with your final statement, but once again, the media did not keep me from having an enlightening experience.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,924
Loc: High pride!
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#505045 - 12/30/01 04:22 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Illegality only speaks to accessability, not efficacy.
I don't agree. The psychedelic culture would grow like crazy if you didn't have to do it behind closed doors. Building muscles is very different from a psychedelic experience. Noone knows what sustances you're doing if you're at the gym. If you try to form a "psychedelic club" in your neighborhood, how long would it be before the cops broke down your doors and put guns to your head?
Basically, though still illegal, one has more options than ever before
They may have more options, but they have no spiritual context in which to do these drugs because they haven't been taught about that aspect of it. They don't have a Tim Leary. Anyone who is a famous psychedelic advocate like Timothy Leary will get harassed by the police and busted. They can't stop you from speaking, but they can bust you for drugs. Only underground websites like The Shroomery can spread this info, and the people who come here are probably already doing them. There's no Shroomery TV channel, so these types of thoughts are in a round about way, made illegal, thus putting a big monkey wrench in the growth of the counter culture. IN FACT, the media has ALSO done an excellent job of making this type of "thought" uncool, because the government basically controls the media.
we only know about the published works of the people of that time who tended to be deep thinkers and not reflective of the masses
I think if you take a look back at the masses in Haight-Ashbury up until about 66 or 67, you'll see that even though these people may not have been able to put it into words, they were all brilliantly exploring their conciousness, coming together, and trying to become enlightened. Only when the establishment began to be threatened by this culture, and then started to fuck with it, did things start to go sour. If they would have left this Haight-Ashbury experiment alone, I think peace and love would have spread far and wide, and the world would be a different place.
Woodstock may not have been a religious revival per say, but there was absolutly no violence there. People were learning to get along during that time.
Using your car analogy, one cannot ignore the accidents along the way.
I don't ignore the accidents, but I also see that there is no debate over weither or not alcohol should be legal based on all the crime that it creates. When it comes to the illegality of psychedelics, it has almost NOTHING to do with health. It has to do with the fact that psychedelics were causing people to come together and rebel against an oppressive government. Also, the meditative, introspective states that psychedelics produce are more in synch with eastern culture, whereas alcohol more in synch with western culture, and that dumb and aggressive attitude that keeps the economy rolling along just fine.
It is impossible to know what the prize is
True, but I think I have a pretty good idea what the prize is.....LOVE. That's what the masses were learning in Haight-Ashbury before the heat came down. You can't wait until we know for sure that love is the answer before you make psychedelics legal. It should be common sense. "Love is the answer.....and you know that...for sure"-Lennon
As to control, methinks you are not seriously "experienced" as Jimi Hendrix put it. Try a medium dosage of ayahuasca (considered by many to be the most spiritual entheogen) and tell me how much control you had.
No I haven't(and I don't think Jimi had) taken Yage. I'm sure I wouldn't have control. I'm not sure what the point is there though.
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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:51 PM)
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Xyrico
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Food]
#505109 - 12/30/01 05:58 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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I categorized drugs as physical things to attempt to convey the message that these aren't necessary for spiritual growth, and often serve as an impedence. It's true, of course, that every thought and emotion we have is a direct result of a chemical reaction. However, the human brain was not intended to handle the particular reactions caused by drugs. They are a form of outside interference that the mind is incapable of properly dealing with. An artificial reaction is 100% invalid compared to one that comes naturally.
If you finally understood the meaning of life while tripping, it would likely be a significantly different conclusion than one you might come upon while, say, meditating. How comfortable would you be having a view of the world that was created for you by a drug?
"Take this pill, and the meaning of life, the universe, and everything will be *this*. Take this one, and it'll be *this*."
The difference between living and non-living things will change with each faith you encounter. If you're Christian, it has to do with souls. If you're a scientist, it's a simple matter of being a biological entity versus a non-biological one. For me, personally, the fundamental difference lies in being a living organism. I say fundamental for a reason, as from this basis one can move on to more spiritual beliefs such as souls and reincarnation.
You say drugs have made you happier. Granted, if that's what makes you happy, go for it. Just keep in mind that it's an illusion. Take away the drugs and you become depressed again. You say they have made you less materalistic and not as much of a logical thinker. So, does that mean you've given away your posessions and moved to a monastery? All that's changed is your own opinion of who you are and who you should be. Have you stopped buying cars and televisions and computers? Would you be content with living in an environment deviod of worldly pleasures, drugs included? No? Then you are still materialistic. 'Non-materialism through drugs' is an oxymoron. Let's put materialism aside, and give me one good example where this 'new mode of thinking' has been of any help, other than feeding your own ego. Think about the grief you might possibly be causing friends and relatives. Is your own so-called happiness really worth the tears of others?
You don't need drugs to be put on the road to enlightenment. If that were the case, beliefs and practices such as Buddhism and Yoga would somehow incorporate that into their systems. This isn't a matter of blind faith, either. Ask any respected spiritual man, perhaps one who would be considered enlightened, and they will tell you the same thing.
Those who wouldn't be 'spiritual' if it weren't for drugs should seriously rethink their reasons for wanting it in the first place. Perhaps I was too harsh in saying that some people are not fit for this kind of life, but some are definitely not ready for it when they start taking drugs. It is rushing a process which is not meant to be rushed.
And if drugs are the only way you have to give your life meaning, if waiting for the next toke is all you have left to live for, then I don't really know what to tell you. Maybe you should aim to solve your problems instead of escaping them.
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Food
---Beast---
Registered: 12/10/01
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Xyrico]
#505757 - 12/31/01 10:09 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hello again Xyrico, although you probably didnt mean to make me laugh you have me almost in hysterics - you see old chap I havent tripped on shrooms for three years - I havent smoked cannabis for weeks and the only drug I have ever habitually used is coffee .
What I am trying to say is that I live most of my life without any drugs and only use them on special occassions .
So when you say:"Take away the drugs and you become depressed again" you make me smile and laugh so much thats it is hard to type .
No offence intended - honestly .
:)
You said that you don't need drugs to be put on the road to enlightenment - and I agree with you for certain, but that does not discount the possibly of their ability to do so . They are not neccesary but they are useful tools (some of them) .
And talking of respected spiritual men: I recently met a monk who gave me a copy of a book called "The science of self realisation" written by the founder of the international society for Krishna consciousness . And whilst talking to him about meditation, peace, happiness and love I pulled out my wallet to give the foundation a donation and the monk saw that my wallet was made of cannabis and had a picture of a cannabis leaf woven into it and began speaking to me about how they use cannabis in India to reach a state of bliss and altered consciousness whereby they can communicate with gods and spirits and learn important spiritual truths .
What on earth do you mean by this: "Think about the grief you might possibly be causing friends and relatives. Is your own so-called happiness really worth the tears of others? "
??
"Let's put materialism aside, and give me one good example where this 'new mode of thinking' has been of any help, other than feeding your own ego "
Feeding my own ego ?? ? Anyway are you asking about my first shroom experience here or what ?
?
I said I'd tell you of my answer to the question about the difference between living and non living things .
Well to demonstrate my answer think of five things , a rock - a cabbage - a rabbit - a human, and God .
All these things would commonly be placed on different levels of a hierarchical scale of life in the order that I listed them in - and shortly after watching a wall morph into various objects from my imagination I came up with the realisation that these things all lie on a hierarchical scale of their understanding of the true nature of reality and that they are placed on this scale into the same levels as they are the levels of life .
So to conclude, the difference between being alive and not being alive lies (at least in part) in the level of understanding of the true nature of reality that the subject holds .
Think about it for a whilke and Im sure you'll agree .
I'll write more later :)
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--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
Edited by Food (12/31/01 10:52 AM)
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,924
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 9 hours, 50 minutes
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 Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Xyrico]
#507453 - 01/02/02 06:50 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you finally understood the meaning of life while tripping, it would likely be a significantly different conclusion than one you
might come upon while, say, meditating.
I already understood the meaning of life fairly well before I started getting into it. I have logical reasons for knowing what the meaning of life is. Not that I know everything...far from it, but I have the frame of my theological house already built and then some.
You say drugs have made you happier. Granted, if that's what makes you happy, go for it. Just keep in mind that it's an
illusion
First of all, everything we know is an illusion. Second, I don't think the psychedelic experience is an illusion in the way you mean either. I believe as Aldous Huxley did, that our minds are a "reducing valve" for keeping out all but a trickle of our true conciousness, and when you take psychedelics, the valve is opened up to let more in.
You say they have made you less materalistic and not as
much of a logical thinker. So, does that mean you've given away your posessions and moved to a monastery?
He said "LESS materialistic". I don't think he claims to be completely enlightened.
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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:52 PM)
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Grimace
enthusiast
Registered: 04/04/00
Posts: 161
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 23 years, 1 month
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#511753 - 01/06/02 12:12 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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LearyFan, yet again you have said what much of us (those that have done extensive research on the subject) want to say. I thank you for standing up not only for yourself, but for an entire web of similar thinking creatures, I myself being one of them.
Your ideas are crystal, pure, and most of all, perplexing. I'm not saying they're all original, but more of a compilation of a well "dug in" topic. Nice work!
Listen to the keywords, fellas!
Grimace
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"Is there anyway of knowing........which direction we are going?!! Yes!"
Mr. Wonka
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,924
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 9 hours, 50 minutes
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Grimace]
#512926 - 01/07/02 05:47 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks Grimace.
Just trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together man.
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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:52 PM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#513006 - 01/07/02 08:34 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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There is tons of conjecture and philosophising on this thread.
Now how about we get to the substance...
How many of you get closer to some mystical goal with each successive trip?
No double-speak, no postulating. Let's talk real-world and not quote other sources, nor expound hypotheses.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,924
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 9 hours, 50 minutes
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#513084 - 01/07/02 10:40 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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I feel I get closer with each trip. There's no way for me to really measure this belief, but that's what I feel.
Even if i'm not getting closer to my goal, i'm at least not falling farther away from it. When I take shrooms, it takes me back to a place of peace within myself where I have much more power over my whole world.
My life is a maze. Psychedelics give me a ladder to climb up to where I can see where to go, and where I shouldn't.
It is also my belief that we bring everything in our lives to us by our thought(concious or otherwise). By taking a substance that gives us greater control over our thoughts, we can make possitive changes.
Here's another car analogy I heard from somewhere.
You know those toy steering wheels kids have with the gear shift and all? We are like kids sitting in the passenger seat of their parents car, turning the wheel, thinking we are controling the car, when our subconcious in really driving.
Psychedelics put us in the drivers seat, at the real controls to whatever extent.
Hope I explained that well enough.
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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride
Edited by Learyfan (09/27/11 12:52 PM)
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nanosec
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Swami]
#2877352 - 07/11/04 02:56 AM (20 years, 11 months ago) |
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To Swami and Xyrico,
---I found this material on a physics discussion forum. These guys are far more eloquent than I, so I shall let them explain. I believe it will be useful in answering your questions:---
"By taking Creatine or vitamin Q-10 for ATP synthesis, one is also taking an external source. In fact we are drug addicts to 20 essential amino acids, which we require from food, to produce the brain drugs of: Dopamine, Noreadrenaline, Serotonin et al. These are EXTERNAL SOURCES, and drugs unto themselves, they are highly PSYCHOACTIVE, not only that, but presently, we are also addicted to them.
The highest amount of serotonin in the body are found in the pineal. Serotonin can be converted to tryptamine (DMT is N-dimethyltryptamine). The pineal appears to have this ability. Methyltransferases, enzymes that convert serotonin, melatonin, or tryptamine into psychedelic compounds, reside in unusually high concentrations in the pineal. Finally, the pineal produces the potentially mind-altering substances, beta-carbolines. Beta-carbolines inhibit the breakdown of DMT by the body's MAOs. These compounds enhance and prolong the effects of DMT."
---So that debunks the issue of external vs. natural. Many of these compounds are produced in the human brain!  ---
"I believe it's an open question as to what significance such altered states of consciousness possess. The common response that they are meaningless since they are just caused by chemicals in the brain is ridiculous; everything we perceive is caused by chemicals in our brains, but clearly we ascribe some significance to our everyday perceptions.
Personally, I do not think such experiences are really literally the doorway to 'other worlds.' However, they are quite enlightening as to the nature of consciousness itself. The typical person who is limited to the experiences of 'normal' wakefulness and varying stages of dreaming is correspondingly limited in his notion of what consciousness is and what consciousness can be.
Why is the 'natural' more epistemically priveleged than the 'artificial'? If someone's brain naturally produced a rush of DMT in response to a natural experience, would that experience be more meaningful than the one where DMT is artificially introduced? If tomorrow everyone's brains started producing massive amounts of DMT, and the only way to return to previous brain states was by ingesting some artificially contrived pill, would that be an exercise in self deception or a restoring of sanity? What about so called 'smart drugs'-- if there really is any benefit to be had from them, is this benefit automatically deflated and shown to be misguided because it stems from an artificial source?
I personally see a distinction to be made, but it's certainly not about natural vs. artificial. Everyday experiences are taken to be veridical, ie being true representations of external reality, in virtue of their functional covariance with causal agents detectable by independent means (such as light, heat, etc.) In the hallucinatory experience, the isomorphism between information in internal brain states and external stimuli typically becomes degraded, and so in this sense such states can be said to be less veridical.
However, there may still be a functional covariance with factors other than those typically encountered in everyday experience, and in this sense altered states may be taken to be veridical representations of these new factors. For instance, at the very least, visual hallucinations are a case where visual experience covaries with internally generated activation of brain states, and in this sense visual hallucinations can be taken to be veridical representations of the visual brain processes themselves, as divorced from the causal chains of organization that normally shape them and artificially restrict our notions of them. This is surely insightful insofar as the workings of the brain are essentially invisible in everyday experience, and all we 'see' is an apparently concrete external world in a fit of naive realism.
Thus the significance of psychedelic experiences at the very least lives up to its name-- 'mind revealing.' And depending on the metaphysical nature of consciousness, it could be something more significant than one's own brain that one is gaining new insight into."
---So you see, there are legitimate reasons to seek these experiences. Further, altered states of consciousness hardly require the use of chemicals. The same can be achieved through meditation, art, novel ideas, alternative languages, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, as well as chemical compounds.
For instance, watch the following flash presentation. You will feel a definite change in perspective after having viewed it, yet you ingested no chemicals. The only "mind altering agent" in this case is a pattern of acoustic and electromagnetic frequencies observed through the normal channels of your sensory apparatus:
http://w1.736.telia.com/~u73602493/flashback.html
So please, open your mind. Psychedelic experiences are your birthright as a human being. To believe the current propaganda is to cut yourself off from a realm of experience as profound and as nourishing as that of having really good sex! You wouldn't want to go your whole lifetime without ever having sex, would you? 
That's it. I've had my say. May love and truth find you where ever you are!---
"We teach what we know, but we reproduce what we are." - John Maxwell
"Before you can know anything directly, non-verbally, you must know the knower. So far, you took the mind for the knower, but it is not so. The mind clogs you up with images and ideas, which leave scars in memory. You take remembering to be knowledge. True knowledge is ever fresh, new, unexpected. It wells up from within. When you know what you are, you also are what you know. Between knowing and being there is no gap." - Nisargadatta Maharaj
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth,
but most of them pick themselves up
and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
~ Winston Churchill
"No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions."
~ Charles P. Steinmetz
"The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven." -John Milton
"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to Heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all."
-Thomas Jefferson
"Somewhere defined in aimless words, Somewhere within
my angry herd of stampeding emotions Love was running blind."
? Michael Hedges
?Reality is but a serotonin-induced hallucination" - Terence McKenna
"Earth's crammed with heaven,
And every common bush afire with God;
And only he who sees takes off his shoes;
The rest sit round it and pluck blackberries."
- Elizabeth Barrett Browning
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deafpanda
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: nanosec]
#2877547 - 07/11/04 08:11 AM (20 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well said.
I was gonna reply and say that since non-drug induced "mystical experiences" involve the same sort of chemical activity as drug-induced ones, it is quite silly to say that one is valid and one isn't. You sort of implied this in your post, I think.
Of course, the sort of people who can attain such mental states without drugs are more likely to be interpreting the experience in a "mystical" context than drug users, so they may get more out of it.
Personally, I don't think that drugs teach you any expressable facts. They just give me great experiences which raises the quality of my life, which translates into happiness and general well-being.
I *am* a lot happier since the start of my psychedelic use, and I'm content with not seeing this happiness in a religious context at the moment. If future experiences are different, however, I'll rethink that.
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Phencyclidine
Molecule
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: nanosec]
#2880030 - 07/11/04 10:46 PM (20 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'll address some of these arguments.
Quote:
. In fact we are drug addicts to 20 essential amino acids, which we require from food, to produce the brain drugs of:
I disagree. It's a distortion of the word "addiction" to claim that you can be addicted to something which is essential to life.
If you were to insist that this is fair use of the term "addiction" then I would simply argue that there is a clear distinction between being "addicted" to substances which keep you alive and "addicted" to medically unnecessary substance.
Quote:
These are EXTERNAL SOURCES, and drugs unto themselves, they are highly PSYCHOACTIVE, not only that, but presently, we are also addicted to them.
Is this supposed to be profound? It's not. Yes, precursors to neurotransmitters come from external sources. Yes, neurotransmitters are involved in conscious stimuli. What's the point?
The argument is quite absurd. The human body cannot self-generate. You have to consume external material to exist. My bones contain calcium phosphate. Am I addicted to calcium? Am I addicted to my own bones? I need food to help replicate DNA, does that mean that I'm addicted to food and DNA?
Quote:
These compounds enhance and prolong the effects of DMT.
To any meaningful extent? Anyway, what's the point? Yes, human beings do have chemicals in them which can alter consciousness when their ratios are altered.
Quote:
---So that debunks the issue of external vs. natural. Many of these compounds are produced in the human brain! ---
Nonsense. What distinguishes amino acids from, for example PCP, is that without amino acids, you would die. You can live without PCP. "Natural" is just a term that is used to differential between substances that are typically found in humans and xenobiotics. Sure, sometimes it can be hard to differential, but that doesn't mean that there's no distinction between amino acids and PCP.
Quote:
The common response that they are meaningless since they are just caused by chemicals in the brain is ridiculous . . .
Wow, I actually agree.
Quote:
Why is the 'natural' more epistemically priveleged than the 'artificial'? If someone's brain naturally produced a rush of DMT in response to a natural experience, would that experience be more meaningful than the one where DMT is artificially introduced?
Would either of them be meaningful?
Quote:
I personally see a distinction to be made, but it's certainly not about natural vs. artificial. Everyday experiences are taken to be veridical, ie being true representations of external reality, in virtue of their functional covariance with causal agents detectable by independent means (such as light, heat, etc.) In the hallucinatory experience, the isomorphism between information in internal brain states and external stimuli typically becomes degraded, and so in this sense such states can be said to be less veridical.
Yes, I agre.
Quote:
. . .and in this sense visual hallucinations can be taken to be veridical representations of the visual brain processes themselves, as divorced from the causal chains of organization that normally shape them and artificially restrict our notions of them.
Probably.
[quote[ . . .the significance of psychedelic experiences at the very least lives up to its name-- 'mind revealing.' And depending on the metaphysical nature of consciousness, it could be something more significant than one's own brain that one is gaining new insight into.
If we assume that a psychedelic experience is the result of taking a real drug, then how can be conclude that a psychedelic experience reveals metaphysical phenomena? I cannot conclude that. It is logically possible, but I have no way of testing this.
Quote:
So you see, there are legitimate reasons to seek these experiences.
The argument was sloppy.
Quote:
So please, open your mind.
So the author argues all this, comes to a conclusion that is logically possible but ultimately untestable by science and then asks us to accept that it's true.
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#2880141 - 07/11/04 11:16 PM (20 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't think psychedelics are all that is required for everybody to obtain "enlightenment," nor do I think that everybody should use psychedelics to help themselves on their path towards "enlightenment."
I think it only helps with SOME people, and with even those people it only help SOME of the time.... Its all about one's own path, and deciding what is right for you.
Drugs just won't help many people, and for many people drugs are not ALL that will help them
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,492
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 22 days
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Strumpling]
#2881282 - 07/12/04 06:00 AM (20 years, 11 months ago) |
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wasn't it aldous huxley who described psychedelics as being analogous to the christian concept of "gratuitous grace" - being neither neccessary nor sufficient for salvation ?
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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OneMoreRobot3021
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,030
Loc: the sky
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Learyfan]
#2881534 - 07/12/04 09:15 AM (20 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
<br>I believe that the crackdown on psychedelic drugs is possibly the biggest conspiracy in the history of mankind. In the 60's they almost woke everyone up. Now those doors are shut to most people.
<br>
<br>Quite sad.
<br>
Yup yup yup...of course, the government machine has it so easy, they have so much at their disposal to make anyone that uses the word "conspiracy" look paranoid and nothing but...and all of us can so clearly look at something like government, hundreds of men in suits filing into buildings arguing about paperwork and never getting anything done, and see that it's one big bad trip sometimes...sigh.
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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
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OneMoreRobot3021
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,030
Loc: the sky
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On the issue of enlightenment, though...(posted that last post only after reading the first, just gone done reading the rest..)
I don't think any sort of true complete "enlightenment" is possible by any means. To me the nature of existence is an entropic fracture from a whole, like cracks spreading along a massive pane of glass slowly, sprouting new crevices as it goes along, or perhaps the frozen surface of a lake (which is an even better analogy, because it fits in perfectly with the whole return-to-water obsession I have).
And there could never be a sort of enlightenment of the masses or anything like that, because this fractured nature of reality wouldn't allow for it - I believe who we are is defined by each and every moment we exist in space and time, all those moments being stacked upon some sort of invisible base, the Godhead if you will, that we all came from. So when each person achieves any sort of "enlightenment" whether through drugs or meditation or prayer or almost getting hit by a car crossing Second Avenue, they are reaching back through that stack of moment to run their fingers through the godhead's soft hair - but still that enlightenment comes through their own personal filter. Total ego loss is possible, but in the end we all know it's only permanently possible through death. So, whoever said that drugs offer "a taste" of enlightenment, I would absolutely agree with...and that's why it's dangerous to rely on drugs as any sort of savior or enlightening force. To me, it's like glimpsing death, and realizing "well, if that's death, that's fine with me, and I'll have a good time while I can."
Well, Morrison said it best, and I don't even need to reprint it here.
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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
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nanosec
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 2
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: Phencyclidine]
#2881841 - 07/12/04 11:11 AM (20 years, 11 months ago) |
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>>So the author argues all this, comes to a conclusion that is logically possible but ultimately untestable by science and then asks us to accept that it's true.<<
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...Um. Ok. Ok. I take it back. 
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We fear nothing more than reason. We ought to fear stupidity if we understood what is really frightful. But reason is too uncomfortable, it must be brushed aside. Whereas stupidity is merely fatal, and that can be tolerated.
~Wilhelm Meister Goethe
The truth must be falsehood unless it be the whole truth; and the whole truth is partly inaccessible, partly unintelligible, partly incredible and partly unpublishable -- that is, in any country where truth in itself is recognized as a dangerous explosive.
~Aleister Crowley
I think the subject which will be of most importance politically
is Mass Psychology... Its importance has been enormously increased
by the growth of modern methods of propaganda. Although this
science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to
the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know
how its convictions are generated. When the technique has been perfected, every government that has been in charge of education for a generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen.
~Bertrand Russell
The matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes, to blind you from the truth. ... you are a slave. Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind ... What is the Matrix? Control. The Matrix is a dream world built to keep us under control.
~Morpheus
Edited by nanosec (07/12/04 01:48 PM)
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hashclown
Stranger
Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 14
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: nanosec]
#9432797 - 12/14/08 08:52 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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I did not have time to read the entire thread, but I would still like to add my two cents.
Hallucinogens won't have much affect on a person without the use of meditation.
Hallucinogens like acid and mushrooms often lead to anxiety while using and perhaps a couple days of depression after use. The benefits of this typical use(and some may not perceive it as such) is the facing of one's fears, and like it or not, the person is always better for it.
Now, the real power of hallucinogens and other entheogens can be seen while in a meditative state. In my experience, it is the repeated act of striving for peace within one's self that has a lasting impression on the individual.
So... drugs alone can do both good and bad to anyone (too much of anything...). But combined with the effort of consciously changing one's perception, hallucinogens most definitely help to push one down the path towards enlightenment.
I am not an enlightened individual. But I am changing, for the better. I now live in a state that is susceptible to both heaven and hell (not a future dwelling place but a reality of the present). Hallucinogens allowed me to see this by making each state more exaggerated. But these chemicals can only show me the door, it is up to me to walk through it.
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hashclown
Stranger
Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 14
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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Re: Psychedelics and enlightenment [Re: hashclown]
#9432837 - 12/14/08 08:57 PM (16 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
hashclown said:
Hallucinogens like acid and mushrooms often lead to anxiety while using and perhaps a couple days of depression after use. The benefits of this typical use(and some may not perceive it as such) is the facing of one's fears, and like it or not, the person is always better for it.
Hallucinogens can still be a lot of fun, I was just trying to explain what happened to me and my friends after repeated use with no direction or reasoning.
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