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InvisibleKid
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The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment
    #483599 - 12/07/01 11:29 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The search for Enlightenment through the Psychedelic Experience mediated by psychoactive drugs represents the search for the True meaning of Eastern esoterica, now lost to all, but hopefully rediscovered through Western rationality.

How postmodern, and paradoxical.


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Offlineegolesss
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #483623 - 12/07/01 11:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Nothing is rational about what we search for......


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Going crazy will drive you mad, but once you get there the rest is easy....All spores are not created equal!!!!!!!!!!! Sporeworks, Hawkseye, PF, they are completely viable with very strong genetics.




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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: egolesss]
    #483632 - 12/08/01 12:04 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

?
I never said anything about the (ir)rationality of what is being searched for (enlightenment) but that the tool with which it is being searched for is rationality.


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OfflineMarleyBob
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #483694 - 12/08/01 02:00 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yah hopefully, for you.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid] * 1
    #484141 - 12/08/01 04:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Having been tripping since the late 60's, I know of no one who had any permanent realization from psychedelics. We all believed it at the time, but seems it was just a mirage.

Society started to change for the better, then shifted back to the old ways.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #484236 - 12/08/01 06:21 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

> I know of no one who had any permanent realization from psychedelics

Yeah, I wish you would tell more people that. I think most younger people think that they're destined to find something.

Thanks for actually having something intelligent to say.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #484456 - 12/08/01 10:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

On a positive note: Some people claim to change their lives when used in a religious and / or ritualistic manner, such as the Native American Church with peyote or Santo Daime with ayahuasca.

However just ingesting the largest amount of drugs that you (think you) can handle will definitely NOT do it. McKenna was a very interesting writer and avid psychedelic spelunker, yet admitted to no great wisdom.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblecantara
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #484483 - 12/08/01 11:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Swami

On 99% of the posts I see you post, I agree with you, but here I have to disagree with you - I am doing it on principle and not on firsthand knowledge, because I wasn't here since the late sixties, but my question for you is - you say that you haven't seen anyone obtain a long-term benefit or insight from psychedelics (I forget now the exact word/phrase you used) - let me ask you to clarify, do you mean to say that there is basically NO potential for that, aside from the religious/spiritual setting? If you believe there is none, that really surprises me, and I'd like to know how/why I am deluding myself when I think there is a potential. If there *is* a potential, but simultaneously you are saying that the psychedelics in fact never produced those results, then you must imply that everyone you have ever known used them in the "incorrect' way, that is, used them in a way in which benefits were not forthcoming?



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---- Cantara

[green]Shroomism, please don't delete this thread![/green]


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: cantara]
    #484501 - 12/08/01 11:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think its a good time to have a look at the writings and ideas of avid-psychedelic-exponent Aldous Huxley. He believes that psychedelics give a person access to the antipodies of their mind - where they can access and witness the time-less environment of the spirit world and see the 'stone-like' faces of those who inhabit this 'otherness' .
The BIG point that he makes is that although we can experience this other world or reality and have profound experiences in it, we cannot fully comprehend or understand these experiences, simply because we are still viewing these experiences through the humanised/ego-driven mindset of the material world.


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Offlinefelixhigh
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #486665 - 12/11/01 12:22 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

i like huxley a lot...
and i think that some subject who is unable to learn from good psychedelics (shrooms, aya, mescaline) must be a limited person or is denying what have actually learnt. this rehab/anonymous narcotic babble pisses me off.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: felixhigh]
    #486760 - 12/11/01 01:48 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

> and i think that some subject who is unable to learn from good psychedelics

I just think it's ironic (and paradoxical) what the psychedelic knowledge quest represents. The Eastern 'wise man' (yogi, buddhist monk) has long been a minor heroic figure in Western culture. I think people who are searching for Enlightenment from psychedelic drugs are trying to recapture those Eastern mystical secrets within a scientific framework.

The external discourse is about chemicals, effects, categories (tryptamines, etc.) but within that framework, at the junction of the chemical and the mind, is the Eastern esoteric framework of Enlightenment and spiritual growth. The two symbols, once thought to be opposite of each other, have merged.

It makes me wonder why.

> this rehab/anonymous narcotic babble pisses me off.

Who's been saying anything about that in this thread?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #488369 - 12/12/01 07:39 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

As for me, it was Heavenly Blue Morning Glories and Sandoz Psilocybin in 1971 that began my Psychedelic Pilgrimage. Contrary to your contention, psychedelics were the change agents that changed me permanently from a scientific positivist and crude materialist into a seeker.

Enlightenement should not be compared one to another, rather, before and after. I sought the religious structures to help define my mystical experiences, that I might better convey their distilled meanings to others. Psychedelics paved the way for my path from medical studies to philosophy, theology and psychology over the last 30 years, and I am still enthusiastic! I would say that psychedelic-initiated changes have been "permanent" in my experience, and that there is clearly a pre- and post-enlightenment personality change.
Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #488440 - 12/12/01 10:37 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think that is wonderful that you were positively affected.

I remember that in the late 60's to early 70's, one could hitchike almost anywhere and be guaranteed of a ride. There was a child-like innocence and love that was freely shared.

Now, straights and even ardent "hippies' are terrifed to either ask for or offer a ride.

I will most certainly agree that this is a very minor piece of society to point to, but it is an example of moving from openness to fear. This would not be possible if a large-scale mental / emotional shift had happened. Perhaps a better example would be the metal (gun) detectors installed at many schools. Obviously this is not the "fault" of psychedelics, but wiht some 28% of the populace admitting to having indulged, one would expcect some societal shift in the positive.

On an individual level, would you say that you have known many more people that burned out or got "fried" on pyschedelics rather than those who walked in a different light?

Don't get me wrong. I am endlessly fascinated by pyschedelics, er excuse me, entheogens. However, I stand by my point, that mere ingestion of a significant amount of a psychotropic substance (even if one is "blown away") does not equal permanent change. (How many Dead-Heads does it take to change a light bulb?)

Because your heart led you to the role of seeker, I believe that you would have changed with or wtihout these substances.

I think this generally false expectation (of enlightenment) may lead to disappointment and even depression in many.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: cantara]
    #488454 - 12/12/01 10:54 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

do you mean to say that there is basically NO potential for that..

I merely said that I had observed none in myself and the small societal cross-section callled "my friends and acquaintences". I still find psychedelics interesting and also still struggle with issues such as depression and life purpose.

It just seems as if one is always "just on the verge" of some great discovery. Like perhaps next time one will "get it".

Read some of the posts from people here that have tripped hundreds of times and tell me if they seem spiritually/ emotionally advanced over non-trippers?

Many will tell you that they became aware of whole new worlds, yet their daily life remains unaffected.

Share with us what permanent changes you have observed from tripping? Or do you too think that "Maybe the next trip" will do it for you?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinejimmyvengeance
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #488481 - 12/12/01 11:41 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I disagree with you, but I think you've hit on an interesting point. I would argue that the often short-lived nature of psychedelic enlightenment is actually a testament to one of its better qualities: it's temporary. Psychedelics can offer people enlightenment, while they're on 'em, but these realizations must be integrated into daily life before they can be truly useful. And this integration process is just as boring and arduous as any other self-help scheme. Very few people follow through. My question is, so what? Just because the larger part of the populace can't capitalize on its positive experiences, should we be daunted? No, of course not.
For me, psychedelics have offered temporary glimpses of enlightenment, if you fancy that term. They haven't tossed my life onto a dramatically new path, but they have opened some doors which may have otherwise stayed shut. It's been positive.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #488561 - 12/12/01 01:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So in this way, psychedelic drugs were the door ;-) within Western rationality that led to the mysticism.

The microscope essentially pointing at the unknown Eastern phenomenon, and abandoned?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #489561 - 12/13/01 07:42 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I was dismayed last night, when viewing the new Star Trek project - Enterprise. A research team was exposed to a "psychotropic pollen," grew paranoid and began hallucinating beings who morphed out of rock. None of the crew seemed to have had any experience with 'tripping' in that future reference. I had hoped that the influece of the great 'Psychedelic Experiment' in the 20th century would've been recognized by some small passing comment on the episode.

I remember only one real acid casualty while yet in high school. He seemed to be on Thorazine by the way he looked and moved. I was alone in my serious psychedelic sainthood. Most trips in cold, grey, loney wooded areas, if not in my room at home.

I cannot comment on the societal picture. I am completely convinced that a large experiment was taking place on society. I grew up within sight of Sandoz Pharmaceuticals, E. Hanover, NJ, and literally millions of little blue acid tabs 'left' that facility. Whenever I made deliveries for my Father's company to that place, the guards always smiled at this, then long-haired boy, and said "Have a nice trip!" Real seekers are few and far between - always. Acid by itself would not turn one's psyche from the world of American fast-car, hyper-sexualized society to inner vision-based Reality alone. You may be right about developing without psychedelics, but then, I never had the energy to persist at meditation, or the loosening of my 2nd chakra preoccupations without the energy supplied by those substances. When the energy receded, I was back identified with the lower three chakras (into ceremonial magic which was As If it was all about the Crowleyan Will at the 3rd chakra), and struggling to Be in the 4th chakra, and its deeper counterpart - the Heart Cave. So it is difficult to say just how integral the psychedelics were. Even recently, an acquaintance took a few grams of mushroom for the first time, and, as you say, he was dissapointed that he hadn't become Enlightened. I was astounded at his incredible naivete - he's in his 30's.

A very very helpful 'gratuitous grace,' as Huxley called them, psychedelics can provide the needed energy in deLIGHTful, colorful ways, to fuel inner disciplines and devotions. A secular or profane attitude will prohibit higher experiences, while expectations plus appropriate preparation can "occasion" (Huston Smith's term) mystical experience. One just doen't lust after big bucks and a big Mercedes when one has seen the Big Picture.

Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #489566 - 12/13/01 07:52 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Not abandoned. Enlightenment is a forever-receding horizen. Transcendence is dynamic, it is 'further' than where one is at the moment, yet paradoxically, it is immanent IN the moment. Psychedelics are like climbing a tree in the woods to see where one has to go, coming down, and continuing the effort to go further. They give you far sight, or foresight, or vision. It would seem that one's microscope or telescope or whatever instrument, defines the nature of one's quest. Such instruments are one's chosen religious tradition. If an appropriate tradition does not exist, one may have to modify an existing one to accomodate one's new found visions.
Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #490130 - 12/13/01 07:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I've read all of this thread an have a few comments. One may gain valuable knowledge or perspective without achieving or experiencing "enlightenment." I disagree with the notion that people think they are gaining knowledge but then they lose it. Well, that's probably the case in a lot of instances, because it's easy to revert to more conventional and consensus understanding. If one quits psychedelics, sure, a decade or two or three later one may have forgotten the lessons learned as well.

I can say that I've already learned a lot through Salvia Divinorum. I've had apparent after-death experiences and trembled in the void. I learned first hand that there's something outside the envelope of what reality is supposed to be. It's made me reevaluate everything, and I've gone from being a farily hardcore atheist to learning towards mystical beliefs. If I never smoke it again or do any other psychedelic, and I chose to tread a conventional route, play the game, I too will probably forget. But one doesn't have to stop.

Also, I don't think it looks bad for psychedelic awareness that the world wasn't permanently improved by the wave of psychedelics taking in the 60's. The government stepped in and illegalized LSD specifically because it was "creating non-conformists." Had the psychedelic movement been handled properly, and developed instead of being squelched, and if people were able to smoke bud on a regular basis, I think hitchhiking might still be pretty safe.

gotta run;.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #490526 - 12/14/01 01:16 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

It sounds like existentialism to me. Enlightenment is a transcendence of human awareness, or at least, normal human awareness, but of course it is a process within consciousness itself. It seems as though, Enlightenment were the realization that one can "cast off" the specific human awareness (or parts, or most of it) and become more directly involved with the transcendant consciousness (paradoxically, by experiencing less).


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #490746 - 12/14/01 05:27 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I can say that I've already learned a lot through Salvia Divinorum.

The core question as I see it is not: "How much did you learn?" or even "Were you enlightened?" The real question is "Has your life improved and how?" Are you more satisifed in your relationships or career? Have you taken action on some of the "truths" given to you in the vision state. Do you bring more love into your actions?

Many of the people on these boards proclaim "We are all one." and "Love is the answer." But get emotionally offset (frequently with curses) at the slighest challnge to their beliefs. Am I not another aspect of their being? Where is the love or is it only words?

Was discussing diet with a friend recently who was struggling with her weight. When I offered some advice, she repeatedly replied ,"I know, I know!"

If you know something and do no act on it, then you do not "know" it. This type of purely cerebral "knowledge" is often mistaken for wisdom.

So I don't care if you experience the Big Bang and talk directly with God, if your life is still a mess and you are unhappy, then you have learned nothing of value!















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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #490792 - 12/14/01 07:25 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps like Existential Phenomenology, wherein one [brackets] aspects of Reality - the univeral aspects in particular. One then moves from the existential domain to the ontological domain - from existence to Being (the very transcendental Ego Itself).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #490930 - 12/14/01 12:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"So I don't care if you experience the Big Bang and talk directly with God, if your life is still a mess and you are unhappy, then you have learned nothing of value!"

The quality of your life and what you've learned are not necessarily the same thing. You give the example of the psychedelic movement of the 60s petering out (while not acknowledging that all the substances and research were made illegal by the government). That research needed to be developed and there needed to be more integration and refining of taking and discussing psychedelics. The movement could have continued, and that's what the government feared.

In anyone's individual life most the forces we encounter are not going to substantiate our psychedelic experience. Kind of like your kung fu skills mean nothing in the boxing ring. People don't have a supportive community geared toward developing and comprehending psychedelic awareness.

I also have read a lot of reports of psychedelics changing people's lives for the better. I read the book "Tripping," which has about 400 pages of reports, and a lot of people have made lasting changes based on understanding reached through psychedelics.

In my case I can say I've had to re-evaluate reality subsequent to my Salvia breakthrough experiences. I've already been reading more philosophy, brain/consciousness theory, quantum physics, and of course psychedelic literature than I otherwise would have. I meditate and I didn't used to. I find I can incorporate impressions and qualities accessed through psychedelics into my art?

So, I think it depends on the person, and if one is going to run with what they've learned, or if one is going to burry it.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #490956 - 12/14/01 12:50 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you in that there is a distinct difference between "cerebral knowledge" gained from psychedelics and and actually changing how you live your life as a result of that knowledge. However, such a change can only exist in a social framework. In the 60's when a lot of people were turning on to psychedelics at the same time, they felt free to change their behavior in accordance with their new insights (eg. giving people rides without fear, peace, love, etc). But today if someone was to act the same way, he would probably get cheated, beaten up, or something equally as bad. I would truly like to act on my realizations gained through psychedelics, but in 2001 it is far too difficult to abandon the shackles of the materialistic world and do your own thing (not impossible obviously, but a lot harder than it was 35 years ago).

I like to think I've learned enough to influence how I live my life. Sure, I'm not an eastern mystic yet, but I think I incorporate such elements of wisdom into my everyday life in a way that is beneficial to my happiness and to those around me. If that's the limit to what psychedelics can do I still think that's worth it.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #490979 - 12/14/01 01:04 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

One more thing:
What psychedelics have done for me is this. Before I ever did drugs, I was a hardcore athiest and couldn't really imagine anything else out there besides scientific processes. After my first few times tripping, I suddenly realized "holy shit, maybe there is something else." This led to my subsequent (and sober) study of matters of spirituality and eastern philosophy. Later psychedelic experiences confirmed these studies and imbedded their knowledge into my outlook on life. So yes, pyschedelics didn't confer wisdom in and of themselves. No drug or material object can do that. It is a tool that can be used for that end. Some people chose to use it as such, but unfortunately most don't.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #491005 - 12/14/01 01:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

After my first few times tripping, I suddenly realized "holy shit, maybe there is something else." This led to my subsequent (and sober) study of matters of spirituality and eastern philosophy.

I had a similar type of Eureka! experience on LSD. A few years later I went to study at Ananda (disciples of Yoganada) in the California Sierra foothills. We did yoga, affirmations, meditation and had a vegetarian diet. There were no drugs, TV, or alcohol allowed. Other than getting quite healthy (which is definitely a good thing) I left feeling as if I had not gathered even one small drop of insight.

20+ years later I still have not discovered anything of substance. I am not sure if I missed the boat or if there never was a boat.

On a footnote, the 76 year old Swami Kriyanada (no relation to your favorite Swami :o) ) was booted out of the community he founded decades ago. Seems he took sexual advantage of several female disciples who came to him for counseling. Says Donald Walters, aka Swami Kriyanada, "I was giving them a blessing!"

LOL - who would like a blessing from Swami?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #491102 - 12/14/01 03:56 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you ska. I havea the same conversion from atheism to more Eastern appraoches to reality. But let me ask you this. What psychedelic did you have your significant trips on?

" What psychedelics have done for me is this. Before I ever did drugs, I was a hardcore athiest and couldn't really imagine anything else out there besides scientific processes. After
my first few times tripping, I suddenly realized "holy shit, maybe there is something else." This led to my subsequent (and sober) study of matters of spirituality and eastern
philosophy. Later psychedelic experiences confirmed these studies and imbedded their knowledge into my outlook on life. So yes, pyschedelics didn't confer wisdom in and of
themselves. No drug or material object can do that. It is a tool that can be used for that end. Some people chose to use it as such, but unfortunately most don't."


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #491111 - 12/14/01 03:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"I had a similar type of Eureka! experience on LSD. A few years later I went to study at Ananda (disciples of Yoganada) in the California Sierra foothills. We did yoga, affirmations,
meditation and had a vegetarian diet. There were no drugs, TV, or alcohol allowed. Other than getting quite healthy (which is definitely a good thing) I left feeling as if I had not
gathered even one small drop of insight."

Yeah, well, we were talking about psychedelic epiphanies, not joining a group which prohibits psychedelics (as opposed to integrating them). I don't think the example of not gaining anything from abstaining from psychedelics, or of a supposed guru (who also probably doesn't do psychedelics) taking advantage of students reflects poorly on psychedelic knowledge more-or-less properly integrated.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #491123 - 12/14/01 04:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

My first trip few trips were on mushrooms, and these were of the eye opening variety but I was still too in awe to really use anything I got from them. Later I used acid and it served to consolidate all the stuff I've been reading about in meaningful terms. Do you think the type of psychedelic really matters? Sure, people say that shrooms are more spiritual and acid more analytical, but to me they both bring you to the same place, just different flavors. I'm pretty sure I would've ended up the same way no matter how I got there.


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #491222 - 12/14/01 06:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"Do you think the type of psychedelic really matters?"

Yeah. For example, weed is a psychedelic, and I've had access to good enough stuff to actually get some psychotropic effects from it, but it doesn't compare to my mushroom experiences. Only Salvia really made me re-evaluate everything. The other psychedelics I've experimented with thus far (only weed, mushrooms, 5-Me0-dipt, MDMA, & mescaline) did not removed me completely from this reality and cast me into another one. It's one thing to trip in this reality/dimension/what-have-you, and it's another thing altogether to find yourself suspended in the void (after passing through a barrier while protesting that you still have things to do in this life).To exist in a complete other realm leads one to question whether this is the only reality, or whether reality doesn't include other realms that Western science hasn't proven (well, some quantum physicists might argue otherwise), but which Easter mysticism insisted on for thousands of years.

But, given my relative inexperience, I may not be aware of the upper reaches attainable through other psychedelics. Salvia takes me beyond what I can stand, and it does it fast, and with no physical side-effects.

How would you compare your Salvia experiences with your other psychedelic experiences? Or can you?


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Invisiblecantara
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #491276 - 12/14/01 07:29 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

>>>>>>>Psychedelics are like climbing a tree in the woods to see where one has to go, coming down, and continuing the effort to go further. They give you far sight, or foresight, or vision. It would seem that one's microscope or telescope or whatever instrument, defines the nature of one's quest.

This is a very well-worded observation, Markos, and Swami, this is my answer to your Q to me earlier, about what I have gained.

I agree with pretty much everyone on this post that says you don't just immediately gain an all-access pass to Heaven and a one-on-one interview with God for your life based on a trip. It's not instant magic.

I *do*, however, think that psychedelics *are* meaningful, or have a great capacity *to* be used to meaningful employment by intelligent, psychologically-balanced, well-prepared people. To suggest they don't create lasting value is, in my own opinion and based on the experiences of some of my friends, not an accurate portrayal.

In a nutshell, I don't believe you can take them and have access to huge blocks of knowledge which you can still have access to later when not under the influence. I DO think you can have access to your own subconscious workings to an amazing degree, that would take months or years to reach through more traditional methods, and I DO think that you can at least get impressions of other aspects of reality that exist outside of consensus reality, that you can then, to use Markos' imagery (which I really like, and is so accurate for myself), "climb back down the tree" and use those things.

Psychedelics are tools, I believe. Like any other tool, if you use them in a manner that optimizes their abilities, you can gain successful results. If you use them in a manner, or for a purpose, that they can't "work" or that is beyond their scope (trying to build a house with a hammer and no wood or nails), you won't get much of lasting value out of them.



--------------------
---- Cantara

[green]Shroomism, please don't delete this thread![/green]


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #491441 - 12/14/01 10:35 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, well, we were talking about psychedelic epiphanies, not joining a group which prohibits psychedelics...

But several members stated clearly that psychedelics were positive experiences because it led them to Eastern mysticism and philosophy.

My point was that neither sampling the drugs nor following the path through the door (yoga / meditation) that they seemingly opened led anywhere for me.





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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #491448 - 12/14/01 10:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Salvia is weird. Usually I don't really know what to make of her experiences. The world is just so utterly alien that I don't know what to bring back with me to this reality. Traditional psychedelics are easier to assimilate I think, and although they can indeed remove you completely from reality, you are still in this worId. Salvia transports you to a completely different place altogether. I find Salvia interesting but frankly of little use to daily life. It can make you realize just what else is out there, but as far as actual wisdom with how to live your life, deal with other people, etc it doesn't offer much. Acid is my favorite. Nothing beats the raw mind opening power of LSD.


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #491457 - 12/14/01 10:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So are you saying that psychedelics have done absolutely nothing for you? No greater perspective? No enhanced appreciation for nature/art/music? Even if you never got to enlightenment I would think those things would be valuable to you. An increased perspective in your day to day life is still a psychedelic-inspired epiphany, so are you saying that you are completely unchanged as a person?


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #491545 - 12/15/01 12:09 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

> so are you saying that you are completely unchanged as a person?

I have a problem with this kind of questioning because how is the subject supposed to know whether or not they altered their development due to a given experience. How much is their judgment (yes, or no) is based simply on wishful thinking?

I wouldn't say that psychedelics have done nothing for me, but when I really try to take a critical look at what I think they've done for me I have no answer. It doesn't seem to be something I can tell, except for whatever insights I had while under the influence. The problem I have with the idea of progress with psychedelics through insights is that it conflicts with most models of Enlightenment: Enlightenment is a sort of transcendental all-knowingness at one moment, devoid of any sort of conceptual thought. Insights are discrete entities. The idea of insights allowing one to progress to me seems too much like wishful thinking: If I were to write down all of my insights, would I be able to progress further and further with the more pages I write? Would an encyclopedia of insights experienced while under the influece lead me anywhere? I doubt it.

What I find is good evidence that psychedelics can have lasting religious value is that the Native American Church uses peyote as a sacriment. Whatever reason subcultures haven't established a culture of their own centered around psychedelics eludes me.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #491555 - 12/15/01 12:33 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

>I have a problem with this kind of questioning because how is the subject supposed to know whether or not they altered their development due to a given experience.

This is true, but in asking the same question of myself, I know that my general philosophy on life has changed from when I had never used psychedelics. This might have happened anyway, but I highly suspect psychedelics had at least some part in helping to bring out what was already there, if not catalyzing it altogether.

>The problem I have with the idea of progress with psychedelics through insights is that it conflicts with most models of Enlightenment

I think insight can be thought of as meaning "a step toward a more enlightened state" rather than "a discrete bit of knowledge I use to better my life." I'm sure buddhist monks didn't go from "normal peasant" to "enlightened master" in one huge step. It was a gradual process, and each step along the way involved an insight of some sort (perhaps a better word would be more appropriate). Progress is attained through psychedelics only in that the progress is mediated by a biochemical tool as opposed to in a vacuum.


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #493555 - 12/17/01 07:08 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'd like to interject, that a most influential teacher in my life - the late Lama Anagarika Govinda - had his life changed after LSD. Until LSD, he never quite 'Realized' what the 10 hour meditation sessions and visualizations that he learned were all about, and he was a Tibetan Buddhist Lama (of European descent) of the Kargyutpa Order. His most important text is 'Foundations of Tibetan Buddhism,' and he wrote a forward in Leary's 'The Psychedelic Experience.'
Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #493559 - 12/17/01 07:24 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

sorry for my incompetence on the subject, but does anyone wonder if monks, specifically buddhism and such, ever used these "tools." real enlightenment to them is not using any of this. we percieve enlightenment after visuals and questionings under intoxicating circumstances. so, do they see what we see without psychadelics

does this make sense?


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: felix] * 1
    #494568 - 12/18/01 07:19 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

According to the late Neem Karoli Baba - Ram Dass's Guru - psychedelic substances were used in the Kulu valley area of India (?) in the distant past, but knowledge was lost. It has been hypothesized by some, that the Soma of the Hindu Vedas was the Amanita Muscaria mushroom, yet this mushroom lends itself to more of a delirium than an ecstasy. It may be that the 'sacred dung' of cows in India, had its sacrality imparted by the dung-loving psilocybian mushrooms, and that these were responsible for the experiences that gave rise to Yoga practices.

Whereas Hindu sadhus still use ganga, Buddhists prohibit the use of intoxicants. True psychedelics though, while they may result in inebriation, do so in the sense of a 'taste' of samadhi, not the 'high' of cannabis, opium or alcohol. The historical Buddha apparently died of food poisoning: either from pork (which would seem unlikely) or from mushrooms (which would've been forbidden to high caste - Brahman - Hindus; yet Buddha rejected the notionof caste).

All we can do is speculate about the past, but in the present, we know what we know.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: felix]
    #494589 - 12/18/01 08:40 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

& here you are on the edge of the Soma (or Somas?) controversy...
the oldest hindu collection of hymns, the rg vedas, have many songs revering & praising the powers of some type of "plant-god-stuff" --- identified by gordon wasson as fly agaric mushrooms... other candidates have been suggested, and it is not impossible that a number of different plants and mushrooms were used (perhaps "Soma" came to mean "entheogen" ?)
does the ingestion of your ritual sacrament make you more aware, more compassionate, more in touch with "the holy" ?
and, if so, is it the the "ritual" or the "sacrament" or a combination?
the relationship between feelings of sacredness & awe, and the consumption of sacred intoxicants certainly go back much further than the invention of writing (and the wheel, no doubt... i wonder if it precedes the use of fire... brings to miond huston smiths _forgotten truths: the primordial tradition_ the appendix of which was re-written for his recent book on psychedelics and religious experience: see www.csp.org for info on book) & many, many papers and books have been written about the subject...


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old enough to know better
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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #494760 - 12/18/01 01:23 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Ska said, "Salvia is weird. Usually I don't really know what to make of her experiences. The world is just so utterly alien that I don't know what to bring back with me to this reality. Traditional
psychedelics are easier to assimilate I think, and although they can indeed remove you completely from reality, you are still in this worId. Salvia transports you to a completely
different place altogether. I find Salvia interesting but frankly of little use to daily life. It can make you realize just what else is out there, but as far as actual wisdom with how to live
your life, deal with other people, etc it doesn't offer much. Acid is my favorite. Nothing beats the raw mind opening power of LSD."

Then maybe you should change your name from Ska Maria Pastora (Salvia). The value of Salvia is specifically that it DOES show you this other alien realm. To see this formerly unknown realm is to challenge your belief systems/concepts of reality. I find this knowledge useful in the same way a compass pointing true North is useful. I visited the void on Salvia, and this allowed me to understand passages in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, which otherwise would have struck me as nonsense. It's kind of like, to take an extreme example, if you KNEW for a fact that you would continue after death, this would effect your life in large ways. Salvia expanded the envelope of what I knew reality to be, and I hope not to forget that lesson. Scientific rationalism no longer seems sufficient to explain reality.


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #494778 - 12/18/01 01:49 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

kid said: " Enlightenment is a sort of transcendental all-knowingness at one moment, devoid of any sort of conceptual thought. Insights are discrete entities. The idea of insights allowing one to progress to me seems too much like wishful thinking:"

But so many people claim to have that all-knowingness at one moment on psychedelics. Maybe it's a question of chemical and dosage. I just read some reports on 5-methoxy-DMT this morning. Let me dig up a salient quote.

OK, here's one:

"An incredible pressure built as I felt the top of my skull split in half, and shatter. Attention now was free to roam into the great Mystery. This took place as attention was paradoxically spread out into infinity, at the time it was being pressed into the smallest atomic structure imaginable. During this experience I had lost all sense of myself as a separate entity. The ?I? had been utterly smashed into the infinite. My words have no meaning when describing such a feeling. It is beyond the spatio-temporal functions of mind and language."

Well, that's one example. Seems I've read a lot of similar accounts.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #494957 - 12/18/01 05:12 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

What I mean is that I think the insights-to-enlightenment contradict the notion of enlightenment itself. If enlightenment occurs without verbal thought, then how can it be built up to through insightful verbal thought?


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #495104 - 12/18/01 07:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

>Salvia expanded the envelope of what I knew reality to be

Very good description, I agree completely here.

I'm not saying Salvia is without wisdom to offer, it just isn't as obvious or immediately useful. I've never had an insight on Salvia that directly changed the way I lived my life, but it certainly offered a new perspective on everyday things. I haven't been to "the void" in a while, maybe I'll have to try it again soon with that attitude in mind.

(As a side note, does "alienmindscape" refer to the Salvia experience? Because that's what I always think of when I see your name)


Edited by skaMariaPastora (12/18/01 07:53 PM)


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #496118 - 12/19/01 06:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"I'm not saying Salvia is without wisdom to offer, it just isn't as obvious or immediately useful. I've never had an insight on Salvia that directly changed the way I lived my life, but it certainly offered a new perspective on everyday things."

Lower doses of Salvia have influenced some of my decisions. The way it works for me on low doses is that it gives me perspective by giving me a kiss of life and death experience. I wasn't talking to a relative of mine because she married someone who I thought she should not (a second cousin who is over 20 years older than her, and she was 22). Then I smoked some Salvia and I was able to put that behind me and be supportive of her and go to her wedding. I actually had a great time and think the guy it OK. Now I have a great relation with this relative, and get along fine with her husband as well. The Salvia helped me get around my prejudice in the matter.

"As a side note, does "alienmindscape" refer to the Salvia experience?"

Yes.


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Offlinealienmindscape
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #496120 - 12/19/01 06:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"What I mean is that I think the insights-to-enlightenment contradict the notion of enlightenment itself. If enlightenment occurs without verbal thought, then how can it be built up to through insightful verbal thought? "

A lot of the experiences and understanding I hear people gaining through DMT, 5-methoxy-DMT, K,and Salvia are pretty much non-verbal, or very difficult to put into words, and the words are insufficient to describe the understanding. So, this kind of knowledge isn't built up through insightful verbal thought, but is instantaneious understanding through a forced perspective which defies linear thought. Am I making sense?


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InvisibleKid
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: alienmindscape]
    #496311 - 12/19/01 09:48 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

> A lot of the experiences and understanding I hear people gaining through DMT, 5-methoxy-DMT, K,and Salvia are pretty much non-verbal, or very difficult to put into words, and the words are insufficient to describe the understanding. So, this kind of knowledge isn't built up through insightful verbal thought, but is instantaneious understanding through a forced perspective which defies linear thought. Am I making sense?

Yes, that makes sense. What I mean is that it seems that some of the same users who believe in the non-verbal model of Enlightenment also strive towards or see value in verbal insights? Particularly, these verbal insights may be seen as 'one step up' towards enlightenment, which I find contradicts the whole notion of non-verbal enlightenment. My question is how do the users reconcile this seeming paradox?

(of course, I'm not implying that anyone who's replied to this thread is one of these users, but it's something I've noticed on message boards and first hand)


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #496542 - 12/20/01 01:26 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Verbalizing an insight doesn't automatically invalidate it as a step toward enlightenment though. I think the important point here is that although an enlightened state of mind can't be transmited from one person to another in words, I see no reason why the thoughts can't be expressed verbally. I could tell you about an insight that I had, but that doesn't mean it wasn't useful to me in coming closer to enlightenment (but you'd have to experience that same feeling yourself, I couldn't "convince" you of its truth). There's nothing wrong with trying to describe one's journey to enlightenment.

To reconcile what we both have to say: people who aim only to package their insights into nice little phrases like "we are all one" or "all you need is love" are not getting closer to actual enlightenment, but a person that has achieved enlightenment nonverbally is certainly capable of attempting to communicate those thoughts to others. Agreed?


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #14386894 - 05/02/11 07:02 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I cant agree that psychedelics have no potentional of longterm/wholelife enlightement.

But I can put my hand in fire for the statement that: taking big amounts of psychedelics will NOT guarantee you any kind of progress. Someone can eat 100s of acids and will not gain anything valuable besides having a good time during trips. This depends on the person, if you are "ready" you can go as far on 1trip as someone doing thumbprints of LSD, of course even further.

I for myself, experience the effects of longterm careful LSD usage on everyday basis. Of course it can be defined as psychosis, but it isnt. I know better than doctors who only read books about it. The border is very thick :smile:

One thing that is usable in everyday life is my hyper-empathy. Its partially curse, blessing and learning all together. In 3 seconds of looking upon someone, I get big ammount of informations. Much bigger than before I used my 1st psychedelic. I see immediatelly his attitude towards myself. And I get many other indications fast.

I have built my view on world, how it all started, what was 1st what was 2nd, why is it like it is, why it must be like this, whats the possible purpose.

Before taking psychedelics, I was thinking about how I go to school, work, eat, drink... so really nothing. Now I think a lot for a long time, and I feel I have walked some good amount of path somewhere.


And I dont believe there is a ultimate, finished up truth, here in physical world :smile: Because of its own nature.



PS: and sorry for mega-necro, didnt realized that .)


--------------------
“Nobody stopped thinking about those psychedelic experiences. Once you’ve been to some of those places, you think, ‘How can I get back there again but make it a little easier on myself?’” Jerry Garcia 1989


Edited by Network23 (05/02/11 07:04 AM)


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Network23]
    #14386918 - 05/02/11 07:26 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Enlightenment is a 13 letter word which was givin a spiritual definition by Humans. Simple.


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: HerbalJunkie]
    #14388063 - 05/02/11 01:26 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

:smile: I bet it was the opposite way


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“Nobody stopped thinking about those psychedelic experiences. Once you’ve been to some of those places, you think, ‘How can I get back there again but make it a little easier on myself?’” Jerry Garcia 1989


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Network23]
    #14388295 - 05/02/11 02:20 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

i know for a fact i wouldnt be who i am today if it werent for the trips ive taken. i dont think there is a big question they can answer for me but they definitely help me sort out my life when i really need it, keep me on the right track.


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OfflineDidgedood
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Kid]
    #24002915 - 01/12/17 03:02 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It's really all up to the individual


--------------------
“If there were no desire to heal
The damaged and broken met along
This tedious path I've chosen here
I certainly would've walked away by now” -MJK


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #25509459 - 10/03/18 04:21 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

No mirage, you just haven't been listening. To what your answers are to your questions. Peace


Edited by Feelinglife (10/03/18 04:22 PM)


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OfflineFeelinglife
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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: DiscoBiscuitsTrip]
    #25509468 - 10/03/18 04:26 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Agreed:mushroom2:


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Re: The Psychedelic Experience and Enlightenment [Re: Feelinglife]
    #25510605 - 10/04/18 12:06 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Feelinglife said:
No mirage, you just haven't been listening. To what your answers are to your questions. Peace




Replying to a 16 year old post by a banned member is futile.  Start a new thread if you want to say something please.

Seriously. :dafuq:



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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Psychedelic Experience

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