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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23298419 -

I read the first line of your response Markos, and got a good laugh. Always on the ball, eh? But I wonder why I should anyone care for what you "care for", and whatever not so subtle ad hominems you have in store. How about this. Let's try to skip through the formality, as best as possible, what do you say?

Perhaps I say what I do as my own opinion...I wouldn't deny it. And Nietzsche's arguments have influenced me. But so? I do not have any pretension about this, one way or the other. I say what I do. As I see it, in any case, whatever substance and arguments contained in writing, speak for themselves, for people to read, both in yours or mine. I'm happy enough that anyone can read and practically judge for themselves what has been said.

I am open to perspective, as it may fit philosophy, which I suppose includes whatever fitting "sociopolitical" implications, and identifications may be implied by having something to say. But I feel more or less ambivilant in that way to be honest. To be honest I believe you are the one who is grasping to opinions, and identifications with ideas, rather than discussing them, but hey that is just my one idea/opinion among others.

So... I understand you do not agree, but I for one am not really surprised. I am sorry if I am not initiated into the proper mysteries that explain things to you. But even if you may even have something of a point, or an insight in that, like in what I have heard called a "pretrans fallacy", or so on, I think maybe you are so used to this, and assuming this esoteric transcendental/mystical basis of discussion, that you don't recognize it is not necessarily exhaustive. Some particular transcendental experience or mystical tradition itself, is clearly not in itself a vindicating argument for christianity as a whole from any critique.

And I'd point out also that Dionysus to the greeks, and Isis and Osiris in the old egyptian myths, as you mention, are not presented as truths demonstrating a moral of the story, or a moral of pity, as a christian myth is. That is what I am criticizing and it is not a problem with mysticism in general. If you examine things in some terms which are not all so "otherworldly", I think you can see a possible difference.

The "sociopolitical implications", and basic psychology of christian morality are part of the picture - they are in the world, and essential to the archetype itself. The ideal, and namely a particular sort of morality is essential to the christian myth, and it is specifically what I am criticizing as part of it. There is no pre-trans fallacy in that. I'm not saying there is not more to Christianity than what I criticize, but what I am criticizing is there to be seen.

Christian mysticism in particular seems to me to essentially hinge upon the narratives (either psychological or sociological) you claim distance from and apologize for. A moral of the story is essential to Christ on the cross, perhaps unlike other traditions. I have no problem with the notion of transcendental experience or mysticism in general, which includes Christianity. From what I see, ironically, you put this essential story down to the same thing Nietzsche actually did - as the "Platonism for the masses", only you are more accepting and find it convenient to lean on this.

That's just what I think, of course. Gladly nobody needs to take these things personal, and if is just some things said on the internet. Stay classy Markos.

:peace:

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: Kush_Zombie]
    #23298435 -

read the bible.  then you can comment.  otherwise you really dont have a clue.


--------------------
When telling the truth becomes an act of treason, and society chooses delusion and deception over fundamental reality, you've been invaded and infiltrated by other beings that have now integrated into your country and community.  Bless our reptile overlords who control, harvest, and eat us.

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: sprinkles]
    #23298734 -

So we are to understand that there be this inner core of initiates who know all about the secret meaning of Christianity meaning 'ego death' and 'enlightenment' bla bla, whilst the 'multitudes' of 'dupes' believe the superficial tales of a man, the 'Son of God' no less, being tortured terribly, and then crucified to death, and then physically resurrecting, to pay off 'sinful' humanity's debt, and this would be a reason that The Passion of Christ was a blockbuster box-office miracle.

And I am quite sure that if the many different types and cross section of audience being interviewed after viewing the film would not say how they now know the 'real esoteric meaning of Christianity is meaning ego death'.

So where does that leave us in reality? Just exactly what does this scenario do for us? Are we to just think that loads of people are dumb and missing the point and they just need to read some books which explain the deeper meaning of the Bible?
To me it is just the typical us versus them scenario with 'us' being some relatively small initiated group feeling ever so smug that we are insiders and have 'got it' when millions haven't.
THIS scenario is exactly the same as the 'bad guy group', the Satanists and Luciferians. They too have their inner initiates who know stuff others don't, and apparently have great contempt for those who don't get it.

In the Christian context the esoteric brigade will talk about 'ego death'. But what does that mean? That they are better than me? What does that mean? Are they kinda floating ...? Does their shit smell sweeter...?:eek: seriously what the heck does it mean. I see it as a con. As I do the whole Eastern guru trip where so-called holy men claim to be ego-less. I see this as phony. Very

Edited by zzripz (06/02/16 04:17 AM)

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: Kurt]
    #23298864 -

I don't have a clue who won that argument.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: zzripz]
    #23300936 -

zzripz said:
Quote:
You are free to harp on the so called dualism of said beliefs, yes Christianity splits life up into opposing opposites as well as linear time, where the opposites are to eventually be reconciled and life made whole again.


seeing you claim to be representative of authentic Christianity please tell us what that exactly means?


I don't recall claiming that, this is merely my take on things. I don't really have a comment on "authentic Christianity", I think different people get different things from the study of Christianity.  It's just a religion/spiritual teaching. There is a lot of good stuff there for those who delve into it, and of course a lot of room for misinterpretation and manipulation also. It's not a perfect world, I don't see things as black and white.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: zzripz]
    #23300965 -

zzripz said:
So we are to understand that there be this inner core of initiates who know all about the secret meaning of Christianity meaning 'ego death' and 'enlightenment' bla bla, whilst the 'multitudes' of 'dupes' believe the superficial tales of a man, the 'Son of God' no less, being tortured terribly, and then crucified to death, and then physically resurrecting, to pay off 'sinful' humanity's debt, and this would be a reason that The Passion of Christ was a blockbuster box-office miracle.

And I am quite sure that if the many different types and cross section of audience being interviewed after viewing the film would not say how they now know the 'real esoteric meaning of Christianity is meaning ego death'.

So where does that leave us in reality? Just exactly what does this scenario do for us? Are we to just think that loads of people are dumb and missing the point and they just need to read some books which explain the deeper meaning of the Bible?
To me it is just the typical us versus them scenario with 'us' being some relatively small initiated group feeling ever so smug that we are insiders and have 'got it' when millions haven't.
THIS scenario is exactly the same as the 'bad guy group', the Satanists and Luciferians. They too have their inner initiates who know stuff others don't, and apparently have great contempt for those who don't get it.

In the Christian context the esoteric brigade will talk about 'ego death'. But what does that mean? That they are better than me? What does that mean? Are they kinda floating ...? Does their shit smell sweeter...?:eek: seriously what the heck does it mean. I see it as a con. As I do the whole Eastern guru trip where so-called holy men claim to be ego-less. I see this as phony. Very


No, they're not better than you. Like any subject, some people go deeper into the study of it than others. Yes, there is the possibility of becoming arrogant when you think you have deeper spiritual knowledge than regular people and you see this a lot on the shroomery, not necessarily connected with Christianity but kids taking mushrooms and then thinking they are better than non trippers because they have seen beyond the veil. Christianity tempers this tendency by placing an emphases on humility and warning about the dangers of spiritual pride.



--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

Edited by Peyote Road (06/02/16 06:49 PM)

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: zzripz]
    #23301179 -

zzripz said:
Quote:
When I read his words I come away with three important messages that seem to be repeated by him:

1. To love your neighbor.

2. To give up ALL material possessions, and to not give any thought into building a wordly future here on earth, but to prepare for the afterlife... which was supposedly coming VERY soon.

3. To believe his wild claims without supporting evidence.

Now I think most christians have #3 down pretty good. But when Jesus was approached and asked how to become one of his followers, he would refer to #2. How many christians do you know that have done that? None that Ive met, and I went to a christian school. Its much easier to worry about your right to put up a nativity scene at city hall or to stop 2 dudes from marrying each other than to it is to sell all your possesions, give the money to the poor and follow Jesus into the impending apocolypse.


3 is a big no no, as are also 2 and 1.

Look, this is all words words words. that is my point. Moral codes. Noral codes that are not even followed by the people who preach them. Have YOu given up all your material
possessions Peyote Road? You given away your i/cellphone to a homeless person yet?? :tongue: what does that even mean anyhow? Cults do that, and the cult-master/guru ends up with LOTS of stuff!
It is all just empty slogans like the politics we are used to. Obama makes a speech in 2009 about how nukes are gonna be deployed and never meant it even to begin with. twas just empty words.
the Church ended up with so many peoples material possessions--OMFG! And look at the Vatican? It is all BS
But this doesn't mean I am therefore advocating souless materialism or nihilism either, but just encouraging to stop wasting energies on old dead stories, and grasp the hidden---the hidden being the psychedelics, especially psychedelic fungi from which most mythos is inspired from. BUT when secrecy and words take hold we get the BS which really is convoluted literalist none-sense
you know love when you eat psychedelics, you dont need no words to TELL you to


I have not given up all my material possessions but now you're trying to take the scriptures literally.

For example in the Old Testament God blesses Job with "fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand yoke of oxen, and one thousand female donkeys. 13He also had seven sons and three daughters. 14And he called the name of the first Jemimah, the name of the second Keziah, and the name of the third Keren-Happuch. 15In all the land were found no women so beautiful as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them an inheritance among their brothers." Job 42.

So obviously  God doesn't necessarily have a problem with wealth. The Christian position as I understand it, is that material possessions will not save your soul.

If your soul is healthy, owning things is ok. But if your soul is not healthy, you can't make up for it with lots of money.


36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark 8:36


33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33

So essentially the instruction is to make sure we have our priorities are straight.  For some people, seeking the Kingdom of God might literally have involved giving away all their possessions and following Jesus around, or living very simple lives close to nature as many early Christian saints and hermits did.

There are as many spiritual paths as their are people and there is room for diversity of lifestyle if you read the scriptures.

I agree with you that the psychedelic revelations are great because they go beyond words. But that doesn't mean verbal spiritual instruction is wrong either. I feel like I have learned a lot from studying Christianity, not just in terms of spiritual revelations, but also what I learned about history, about how ancient people thought, about the role religion played in history. I appreciated the beauty and cleverness of the Biblical parables, and not only Christianity but I enjoy other religions as well and I am still learning, the more I know the more realize how much I dont know.

I would recommend reading the Bible this way, take a scripture passage that speaks to you and meditate on it. Don't think about religions doctrines or beliefs and don't think Christianity is trying to be the answer, rather explore the mystery that gave birth to scriptures in the first place. I would often do this with psychedelics, take one or two passages and then meditate on their meaning while tripping.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

Edited by Peyote Road (06/02/16 07:51 PM)

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23301312 -

Jesus has karma like anyone else..he is the Miracle of atonement..which is what Christianity represents..in and of itself..he can know you, or about Alchemy..which shows show drawn images of the relation to race..like the Jews for example..which are the Chosen people of God..it is all about the Categorical Imperative..which is what Kant called Moral Relevancy...and therefore are all the orders...brought and burned down by Christ...but only because he has a Homosexual fetish...without this he is pure..but with this..is the sintrid putrid, wrong unloving backwards...all of the holocaust..


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23302026 -

Trippers who have seen beyond the veil are better than people who haven't.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: viktor]
    #23302041 -

viktor said:
Trippers who have seen beyond the veil are better than people who haven't.


well from that perspective you can argue the same is true for those who have delved deeper into religion than the average person and seen beyond the veil that way (with or without tripping).

i will say though, i have encountered a lot of  trippers who were total morons and had huge egos despite thinking they were ego-less or super spiritual. just look at the shroomery.

a few moments of transcendence does not a life make. In my experience, the integration is where the rubber meets the road.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: sprinkles]
    #23302721 -

sprinkles said:
read the bible.  then you can comment.  otherwise you really dont have a clue.


I have several times. And I can comment as I please. Mad?


--------------------
How to get started in bulk:
Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker
BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box
PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek
Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series
How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs)
What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain)
Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary)
Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful)
Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: Kush_Zombie]
    #23302725 -

Look, I did it again.


--------------------
How to get started in bulk:
Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker
BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box
PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek
Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series
How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs)
What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain)
Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary)
Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful)
Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23303025 -

the cult's really got you ey?


20 Reasons to Abandon Christianity

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: zzripz]
    #23303551 -

"
1. Christianity is based on fear. While today there are liberal clergy who preach a gospel of love, they ignore the bulk of Christian teachings, not to mention the bulk of Christian history. Throughout almost its entire time on Earth, the motor driving Christianity has been—in addition to the fear of death—fear of the devil and fear of hell. One can only imagine how potent these threats seemed prior to the rise of science and rational thinking, which have largely robbed these bogeys of their power to inspire terror. But even today, the existence of the devil and hell are cardinal doctrinal tenets of almost all Christian creeds, and many fundamentalist preachers still openly resort to terrorizing their followers with lurid, sadistic portraits of the suffering of nonbelievers after death. This is not an attempt to convince through logic and reason; it is not an attempt to appeal to the better nature of individuals; rather, it is an attempt to whip the flock into line through threats, through appeals to a base part of human nature—fear and cowardice. "

What does the Bible say about fear? Fear is actually considered a sin, and the fearful are lumped together with other types of sinners.


2 Timothy 1:7 ESV / 266 helpful votes

For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

1 John 4:18 ESV / 133 helpful votes

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

Hebrews 13:6 ESV / 131 helpful votes

So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?



Psalm 34:4 ESV / 39 helpful votes

I sought the Lord, and he answered me and delivered me from all my fears.



THe doctrine of an eternal hell where sinners are tortured forever is not even Biblical. See "Hell is a Christian Hoax": http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html


Now obviously throughout people have tried to use Christianity to control people and created fear based man made doctrines, but the gospel is supposed to mean "good news". How is the idea that if you don't get your act together you will burn in hell forever in any way good news? It isn't, and that's why a rational person must conclude the gospel is actually something else. The true gospel elicits joy. Clearly the message has been corrupted throughout history.

The fact is that people were fearful and susceptible to being controlled already. as you have been doing this whole thread, you blame Christianity for the darker parts of human nature whereas I see Christianity as just as a much a result as a cause of these things. I see everyting as interconnected.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

Edited by Peyote Road (06/03/16 02:27 PM)

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23304628 -

Peyote Road said:
viktor said:
Trippers who have seen beyond the veil are better than people who haven't.


well from that perspective you can argue the same is true for those who have delved deeper into religion than the average person and seen beyond the veil that way (with or without tripping).

i will say though, i have encountered a lot of  trippers who were total morons and had huge egos despite thinking they were ego-less or super spiritual. just look at the shroomery.

a few moments of transcendence does not a life make. In my experience, the integration is where the rubber meets the road.


If you have a huge ego you have not seen behind the veil. Simple as. Not even if you took mushrooms a hundred times.

Seeing behind the veil ncessarily destroys the false self. Anyone who claims to have seen beyond the veil abut who has a big ego has simply not seen beyond the veil.

Enjoy your posts about Christianity, they give me a new perspective. I have come from a place of extreme cynicism about Christianity and it's nice to read the posts of a reasonable person who sees something positive in it.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #23304662 -

LunarEclipse said:
Yeah well sounds to me like you're going to Hell unless you get with the program.



Holy shit I laughed so hard at this.


--------------------

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23304687 -

Peyote Road said:
"
1. Christianity is based on fear.



Yes fear even plays a big role in Jesus' core message. He preached that the world was going to end in the generation that he was speaking in... obviously he was wrong. He was your common doomsday cult preacher.

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: SpinScratch]
    #23305217 -

Jesus said we should love our enemies, because the alternative, to hate, causes misery.

Jesus said we all sin, and we can be saved from our sin.

Buddha said we all suffer, and we can be saved from our suffering.

Ego-death / death of self (transcendence) is a common foundation of many spiritual teachings.

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23305307 -

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Jesus said we should love our enemies, because the alternative, to hate, causes misery.

Jesus said we all sin, and we can be saved from our sin.

Buddha said we all suffer, and we can be saved from our suffering.

Ego-death / death of self (transcendence) is a common foundation of many spiritual teachings.


What did Jesus ever have to say about ego death or self transcendence?

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Re: Christianity vs Jesus [Re: viktor]
    #23308172 -

viktor said:
Peyote Road said:
viktor said:
Trippers who have seen beyond the veil are better than people who haven't.


well from that perspective you can argue the same is true for those who have delved deeper into religion than the average person and seen beyond the veil that way (with or without tripping).

i will say though, i have encountered a lot of  trippers who were total morons and had huge egos despite thinking they were ego-less or super spiritual. just look at the shroomery.

a few moments of transcendence does not a life make. In my experience, the integration is where the rubber meets the road.


If you have a huge ego you have not seen behind the veil. Simple as. Not even if you took mushrooms a hundred times.

Seeing behind the veil ncessarily destroys the false self. Anyone who claims to have seen beyond the veil abut who has a big ego has simply not seen beyond the veil.

Enjoy your posts about Christianity, they give me a new perspective. I have come from a place of extreme cynicism about Christianity and it's nice to read the posts of a reasonable person who sees something positive in it.


Thank you but i am afraid I have to disagree about seeing beyond the veil necessarily destroys the false self. It destroys whatever small self you were identified with before seeing beyond he veil, but the ego function is so powerful that even after enlightenment, it comes back and then starts to take ownership of being enlightened.

how else do you explain all those gurus who want to be worshipped by their followers and become manipulative and greedy yet still have some amazing truth in their spiritual teachings? its because the ego function is still alive in them. maybe you have a different perspective but thats my take.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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