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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
A Bet with Swami
    #2168766 - 12/08/03 12:44 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Hello Swami and all.  Swam made a bet, and I took it. Gotta be one of the strangest bets I've been challenged to.

Link to bet:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...sb=5&o=&fpart=3

Quote:

Swami said:
There is ZERO evidence...




Quote:

pattern said:
...saying "There is ZERO evidence" is a grammatical error...




Quote:

Swami said:
I back up ALL my statements. I will wager $1000 that my usage is acceptable.




The statement is almost correct, except that the word ZERO is capitalized.

From the Harbrace College Writer's Handbook, Fourth Edition, p119: "Capitalize words according to standard conventions.  Avoid unnecessary capitals."

The only acceptable convention for capitalization of a word is if it is an acronym or an abbreviation (Chapter 9 of the Writer's Handbook).  It is clearly not being used as either.  Therefore, the statement contains grammatically incorrect usage of the English language.  I'm assuming that "ZERO" was intended to emphasize the word "zero".  If so, italics would have been the proper usage (Chapter 10). 

I never thought my university English classes would pay off until today!  Thank you Gulliver's Travels! 

:grin:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
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Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: pattern]
    #2168778 - 12/08/03 12:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think you are cheating a little. You didn't challenge Swami on whether the word was properly capitalized, or whether it should have been in italics.

I think you found out that Swami correctly used the word "zero" in his sentence and you made a special foray into an old English grammar book to find something on which to hang your hat.

I am going back to 1985, but I think that if Swami was doing a term paper, he might have used italics, but informal usage of the written English language would allow caps instead of italics. The point is mainly that your readers understand that about which you are writing.

(Am I full of schitt or what?)


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: Frog]
    #2168788 - 12/08/03 12:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The point is mainly that your readers understand that about which you are talking

Wha chu talkin bout, frog?
You likee me perfect grammahs?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: Frog]
    #2168790 - 12/08/03 12:57 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I think you are cheating a little. You didn't challenge Swami on whether the word was properly capitalized, or whether it should have been in italics.




I was never arguing with Swami on using the word "zero".  He just thought I was. 

I'm tricky like that.  It's the poker shark in me. :devil:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: pattern]
    #2168799 - 12/08/03 01:03 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Nice try pat. What you said was:

Wrong. The correct answer is: "There is no evidence".

You did not say, "The correct answer is: There is zero evidence," so you are already flip-flopping, though wrong on both accounts.


From http://www.webworkshop.org/writing/adding_emphasis.htm

As an entrepreneur, you probably realize the importance of adding emphasis to your business writing?as in the form of bold, underline and italics?especially when creating advertising copy or ezine articles. The problem is how to add emphasis when writing copy that will be viewed as plain text.
Here are some ideas to help you draw attention to your writing without the benefit of the popular word processing features.

==> Use UPPERCASE

Uppercase letters are another great way to emphasize important points , but use them sparingly! One or two words is sufficient. Too many uppercase words has the same effective as shouting in your reader's face.



From Webster's site on Internet Protocol http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/capitals.htm

Restrain your use of ALL CAPS to solitary words that need further emphasis


Webster's dictionary

gram?mar ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grmr)
n.

The study of how words and their component parts combine to form sentences.
The study of structural relationships in language or in a language, sometimes including pronunciation, meaning, and linguistic history.

The system of inflections, syntax, and word formation of a language.
The system of rules implicit in a language, viewed as a mechanism for generating all sentences possible in that language.



PM me for an address to send the $1,000 check to. Hopefully I can add that to shroomism's $20,000 for my Dodge Viper down-payment.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: Swami]
    #2168815 - 12/08/03 01:10 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Nice try pat. What you said was:

Wrong. The correct answer is: "There is no evidence".

You did not say, "The correct answer is: There is zero evidence," so you are already flip-flopping, though wrong on both accounts.




It doesnt matter what I said there, we are not betting on what I said, we are betting on what you said.

Quote:


From http://www.webworkshop.org/writing/adding_emphasis.htm

As an entrepreneur, you probably realize the importance of adding emphasis to your business writing?as in the form of bold, underline and italics?especially when creating advertising copy or ezine articles. The problem is how to add emphasis when writing copy that will be viewed as plain text.
Here are some ideas to help you draw attention to your writing without the benefit of the popular word processing features.

==> Use UPPERCASE

  Uppercase letters are another great way to emphasize important points , but use them sparingly! One or two words is sufficient. Too many uppercase words has the same effective as shouting in your reader's face.






Webworkshop?  Come on...

Quote:


From Webster's site on Internet Protocol http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/capitals.htm

Restrain your use of ALL CAPS to    solitary words that need further emphasis 




Websters site on Internet Protocol?

You need some better resources than that.  Neither is about standard English.

Quote:

Webster's dictionary

gram?mar    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (grmr)
n.

The study of how words and their component parts combine to form sentences.
The study of structural relationships in language or in a language, sometimes including pronunciation, meaning, and linguistic history.

The system of inflections, syntax, and word formation of a language.
The system of rules implicit in a language, viewed as a mechanism for generating all sentences possible in that language.





Now that is a good quote, but it harms your case.  You violated the grammatical rules of the language.

Quote:

PM me for an address to send the $1,000 check to. Hopefully I can add that to shroomism's $20,000 for my Dodge Viper down-payment.




Welch!  :rolleyes:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: pattern]
    #2168833 - 12/08/03 01:18 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It doesnt matter what I said there, we are not betting on what I said, we are betting on what you said.

OK, your personal integrity is flimsy at best. *files for future reference*.

Now that is a good quote, but it harms your case. You violated the grammatical rules of the language.

Grammar has to do with the structure or arrangement of words. No violations were made nor were any letters harmed in the writing of this post.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: Swami]
    #2168837 - 12/08/03 01:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

snooooooooooooooore.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
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Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: Jellric]
    #2168848 - 12/08/03 01:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You can say what you say however you want to say it as long as you don't use big huge honkin' paragraphs in which to say it.  :grin:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: pattern]
    #2168851 - 12/08/03 01:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

From the Harbrace College Writer's Handbook, Fourth Edition, p119: "Capitalize words according to standard conventions. Avoid unnecessary capitals."

1. What year was this handbook written?

2. Who says it the ultimate writing guide?

3. What medium was it talking about?

4. What does it SPECIFICALLY say about Internet protocol (like my refererences do!)?

5. Telling the student to "avoid" is not saying that it is an "error" nor does it state that my capitalization for emphasis is "unnecessary", now does it?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: Swami]
    #2168853 - 12/08/03 01:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Now that is a good quote, but it harms your case. You violated the grammatical rules of the language.

Grammar has to do with the structure or arrangement of words. No violations were made nor were any letters harmed in the writing of this post.




Grammar:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=grammar

2b) The system of inflections, syntax, and word formation of a language.
The system of rules implicit in a language, viewed as a mechanism for generating all sentences possible in that language.

3a) A normative or prescriptive set of rules setting forth the current standard of usage for pedagogical or reference purposes.
3b) Writing or speech judged with regard to such a set of rules.

See! I am not too lazy to use a dictionary.

Now where's my money? I'm gettin out the sledgehammer. hehe


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineFrog
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Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: pattern]
    #2168858 - 12/08/03 01:31 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'll mediate this matter for a percentage of the pay off...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: Frog]
    #2168867 - 12/08/03 01:35 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Cookies are coming your way as we speak my dear froggie.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Posts: 4,284
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Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: Swami]
    #2168876 - 12/08/03 01:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Uh, none of the 'special' ones for me, thanks.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: Swami]
    #2168881 - 12/08/03 01:41 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
From the Harbrace College Writer's Handbook, Fourth Edition, p119: "Capitalize words according to standard conventions. Avoid unnecessary capitals."

1. What year was this handbook written?

2. Who says it the ultimate writing guide?

3. What medium was it talking about?

4. What does it SPECIFICALLY say about Internet protocol (like my refererences do!)?

5. Telling the student to "avoid" is not saying that it is an "error" nor does it state that my capitalization for emphasis is "unnecessary", now does it?




Taking the defensive, eh.

It is a university textbook written in 1994 by John C Hodges et al. I'd say that makes it more authoritative than a website on internet conduct.

It says nothing about internet protocol, since there isn't one. Internet is a free for all where no grammar rules are enforced. Now if you are gonna pull out the "But it was on the internet so it doesnt count" then you should never again criticize someone for their poor grammar on the internet. Which was my whole point to begin with.

#5... Now you are reaching... the first rule is "Capatalize all words according to standard conventions." That leaves no room for debate. Its not a standard convention to capitalize zero when saying "there is zero evidence", not even to add emphasis.

Well this is going nowhere fast. Back to work for me! ciao


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: pattern]
    #2168886 - 12/08/03 01:44 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Underlining is the textbook preferred method of adding emphasis, but is not in the instant UBB code.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: Swami]
    #2168895 - 12/08/03 01:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This is utterly down syndrome :frown:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Anonymous

Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: pattern]
    #2168919 - 12/08/03 02:07 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I don't know.  To me it looks like either a tie or you won.

The thing about grammar is that it is constantly evolving.  You know about that evolution stuff, I think. :wink: :lol:

Even a shallow knowledge of lexicography shows that words and their meanings change yearly, likewise with "proper" usage of a term.

Jebus, you got me to respond to two threads in here.  What a feat.

Cheers,

MM


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Offlinebumski
cattle russler

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 83
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: ]
    #2168922 - 12/08/03 02:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

So would this be rock bottom?


--------------------
Cheech: Hey man, the house is bein' raided man! opsCays! You hear me man? get-outski!


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: A Bet with Swami [Re: bumski]
    #2169114 - 12/08/03 04:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

this thread epitomizes the nerdiness of internet discussion. 

I strongly urge all parties involved to get a fuckin life :smile:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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