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Invisiblehawk
Stranger
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 275
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: wrestler_az]
    #2809244 - 06/19/04 07:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If you think so. The subjective nature of this reality is implied as well. I gave my reasons and I stand by them. I have no more nits that need picking, but fire away.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: wrestler_az]
    #2809258 - 06/19/04 07:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Webster:

phi?los?o?phy    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (f-ls-f)
n. pl. phi?los?o?phies

1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.

2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.

3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.

4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.


Hawk apparently wants philosophy without the pesky critical analysis or inquiry or logical reasoning.  :rolleyes:


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/19/04 07:26 PM)


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Invisiblehawk
Stranger
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 275
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809259 - 06/19/04 07:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Or just more subjective philosophy.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: hawk]
    #2809264 - 06/19/04 07:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

im not here to "nit-pick"....everyones got their beliefs, and ideas...yours are just as valid as swamis from where i stand, but how you argue them and your reasoning behind them i dont understand....


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,391
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809309 - 06/19/04 07:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

so you are not agree-ing, or you are hiding the part that you proudly believe you can argue yourself out of any position. (a great ability)

The meaning of the very short logical leap I used, is that any expression of attitude involves belief (however momentary) in some premise. The next display of attitude can be denial, making the believer disappear and therefore free from persecution. I am assuming that all expressions have at least some attitude - so this is not personal (honest).

I note that quite a bit of persecuting of beliefs goes on. or is that "purse a cute-ing" (i.e. just for fun & profit).

OR

is the missingness of content the fact that I was not using a numeric iteration.
or at least following the established numerology of the first post in this thread?
(that might be getting personal, and I admit I did not harden my point with numbers.)

Quote:

Swami said:
of course there is the very appealing pose or series of postures that the cynic can take - including poses claiming denial of any personal belief - but it is still a pose or a belief that the pose will be effective in some way.

Nice double-speak and reference to non-existent content. It is hard to have any sort of discussion when you read (or assume) that which was not written. It is frequently more appealing to respond to one's erroneous image of the poster than the words that ACTUALLY appear.




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Invisiblehawk
Stranger
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 275
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: wrestler_az]
    #2809311 - 06/19/04 07:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You can not debate subjective philosophy using objective methodology, the later will win out every time. Subjective philosophy's very nature is how it is interpreted to the individual and how he experiences it. The Greeks knew this and worked around it, and created different schools, Metaphysics, Epistemology etc. What is beautiful , what is love, these things were debated but using different methods then they would for say the answer to two plus two. Swami discredits everything spiritual using objective logic. Even if that method does not apply.


Edited by hawk (06/19/04 07:50 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: hawk]
    #2809331 - 06/19/04 07:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This thread is not about me, the ancient Greeks or how you disagree with Webster's very clear definition of philosophy.

It is about the nature and usage of belief systems.

Apparently your personal distaste for the thread-starter and ignorance of common terms is all you have for us today. Come on back when you have some meat to add to the broth.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblehawk
Stranger
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 275
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809343 - 06/19/04 07:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You are the one who seems to need to go back to school.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2809349 - 06/19/04 07:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If you respond directly to the topic at hand, I may respond to your boringly common dodge of "let's analyse the poster".

I note that quite a bit of persecuting of beliefs goes on
Persecuting is a strong word meaning what to you? It sounds to me like an emotional response to a valid question.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblehawk
Stranger
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 275
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809358 - 06/19/04 08:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I guess those rules apply to you as well. You seem to want the last word go ahead.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809365 - 06/19/04 08:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"When "choosing" a belief system, it is best to borrow a pre-existing system without questioning where the earlier system came from."

Wrong. You should always know the whys and wherefores of your belief system.

"Real-world "results" from following any system are not required (even though it is a "good" thing)."

Wrong. If you don't get real world results soon your belief is garbage. Getting "cool thoughts" to think about don't count as results.

"If one's belief system is challenged, it is normal (and expected) to be become angry and sometimes violent, even if the beliefs include non-violence."

If your philosophy has holes in it then revise it. I got one to add to your list...9. Generalize whenever possible in order to criticise the most people in the fewest words.


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Invisiblehawk
Stranger
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 275
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809402 - 06/19/04 08:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This thread is not about me, the ancient Greeks or how you disagree with Webster's very clear definition of philosophy.
It is about the nature and usage of belief systems.
Quote:

 




It is titled Swami's Annual Summation on Belief
so it has to involve you.  Did you forget your own post title?
:badcomputer:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2809411 - 06/19/04 08:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Wrong. You should always know the whys and wherefores of your belief system.
Then why is are so many unable to explain how they came to such a conclusion? For example: millions believe in reincarnation because their culture does and millions believe in one life with a reward in heaven because their culture does. The why seems to be - "Because I was indoctrinated," even though the believer thinks there is more to it than that.

Wrong. If you don't get real world results soon your belief is garbage. Getting "cool thoughts" to think about don't count as results.
Karma is (despite John Lennon) is not instant and any causality is not apparent. Praying works about as often as not praying; yet the beleiver will quickly use the escape clause of "God does not always grant our wishes," when prayer fails. Discarding the belief is generally NOT an option.

If your philosophy has holes in it then revise it.
Thousands of personal attacks on these boards after I make a salient and unarguable point tell me otherwise.

I got one to add to your list...9. Generalize whenever possible in order to criticise the most people in the fewest words.
*Scribbles furiously in notepad.* Good one. That is a major time-saver.  :cool:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809431 - 06/19/04 08:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Get caught messing around with your neighbor's wife and you will observe the karmic process. Then, tell me about causality. If you treat others like shit they will return the favor. Karma is indeed instant. I am gratified you found my suggestion useful. Personally I think attacking philosophical beliefs is a good thing. It helps me to shore up the edges and plug the holes. Actually when I came to this forum I was going to attack other peoples beliefs because I thought it would be populated by many butterfly heads. You beat me to it, though.


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Offlinedeff
mysticlove
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Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2809506 - 06/19/04 09:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Karma is not the idea of revenge. By retalliating against someone who "messes around with your wife", you are being just as morally unrighteous in your actions, or accumulation of karma. You do not own your wife, and if she agreed to "mess around" with some guy, you have no justification to show anger towards him. If anything, and even this isn't justified, but you should be mad at her for going against our society's bond of marriage and fucking another guy. This is not to say I believe fully in the karma 'system', but your example of it is pretty far off.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2809718 - 06/19/04 10:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Get caught messing around with your neighbor's wife and you will observe the karmic process.
Aha! It is not the sin that is the problem, but the getting caught. I will always go over right after he leaves for work. That cuts down the odds significantly.

If you treat others like shit they will return the favor.
Treating people nice may or may not bring a favorable response. A neighbor let a down & out stranger into their home and the guy stayed there for a few days then murdered them both. Guess they burnt his toast or something...

Actually when I came to this forum I was going to attack other peoples beliefs because I thought it would be populated by many butterfly heads. You beat me to it, though.
*Swami whips out notebook and writes down "butterfly heads"* Keep 'em coming.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: hawk]
    #2809730 - 06/19/04 10:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

is titled Swami's Annual Summation on Belief so it has to involve you.

Uh huh. Regardless of title, virtually all of the thread-starters are offering their own opinion. Were you really unaware of this self-evident fact? Does some entity take you over when you write so that the thoughts expressed are not your own?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809915 - 06/20/04 12:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
3. When "choosing" a belief system, it is best to borrow a pre-existing system without questioning where the earlier system came from.




This presupposed that one accepts the axiom that a believe system can pre-exist. This would not be compatible with belief systems that cannot consider it axiomatic that belief systems can or have pre-existed.

Also, why is this best?

Quote:

4. Most people "choose" a system that is based on their prevailing culture rather than on any form of rationality.




What would comprise a rational belief system?

Quote:

5. Plasticity is extremely important. When reality fails to conform to the system, just add an exception clause.




This presupposes that one can actually between actual reality and the 'reality' that one infers or deduces via one's axioms.

For example, I adhere to the philosophy of science and I conclude that everything that I saw under the influence of hallucinogens which is not consistent with my scientific knowledge of the world was simply a hallucination or delusion. This could be an incorrect conclusion if it is later found that my experiences did have an explanation not currently known to me or if the axioms of science are invalid. On the other hand, the conclusion could be correct.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2809966 - 06/20/04 12:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Awww shit! A post that I cannot make a one-liner response to. Thanksalot. I will need to get stoned and get back to you on this.  :stoned:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809982 - 06/20/04 12:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Swami, I wouldn't dishonour your critical thinking with a "you're stupid."  When I saw the post, I asked myself, "Do I dare take on Swami?" :wink:


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