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InvisibleSwami
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Swami's Annual Summation on Belief
    #2808753 - 06/19/04 02:36 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Gathering up all that I have learned in the past year, I offer this synopsis:

1. Belief connotes things not seen or evidenced else belief would not be required.

2. Belief is a good thing, even though it may be in something non-existent.

3. When "choosing" a belief system, it is best to borrow a pre-existing system without questioning where the earlier system came from.

4. Most people "choose" a system that is based on their prevailing culture rather than on any form of rationality.

5. Plasticity is extremely important. When reality fails to conform to the system, just add an exception clause.

6. Real-world "results" from following any system are not required (even though it is a "good" thing).

7. If one's belief system is challenged, it is normal (and expected) to be become angry and sometimes violent, even if the beliefs include non-violence.

8. It is most important to believe that ones' unfounded and unsubstantiated beliefs are more inportant and more valid (though they cannot be validated) than anothers'.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2808798 - 06/19/04 03:07 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

belief is just attitude with an index
attitude is plasticity


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2808877 - 06/19/04 03:35 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I like to break beliefs to two basic types, theoretical, and dogmatic.



Theoretical beliefs are simply used to make hypotheses on the nature of things. It?s entirely necessary to develop theories on life, or else no new ideas are made, and therefore no progress. Science is the action of taking those theories and testing them out in certain conditions. Nothing can be proved as absolute, but only what is observable in given situations, so theories have to remain open to the possibility of not being 100% true (which is where laws and proofs allow for ideas to be based off of observable theories). When a person is open minded enough to not depend on theoretical beliefs, it?s much easier to test the ideas, or contemplate them without having to prove they?re right. A good scientist is able to recognize that being wrong is sometimes just as important as being right (or that disproving their ideas is just as important as getting the results they were looking for).

Dogmatic beliefs most often have a strong emotional attachment, since it conveys the idea of dependance on a belief for security. It often needs to be constantly reinforced and protected. Somehow people seem to be more convinced of these types of beliefs than of things which are observable.


Beliefs are a necessary component of human thinking. It?s how they?re approached which is important.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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Invisiblehawk
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2808888 - 06/19/04 03:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Swami has not learned much has he :bitch:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Twirling]
    #2808933 - 06/19/04 04:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

if attitude is basic in every moment of consciousness, so then is belief.

attitude is basic since we move from one premise (assumption) to the next & unless we are keeping still, we are excercising the plasticity of life through expressions of attitude.

like postures, or poses - attitudes of body, also attitudes of mind - little filters seeking certain kinds of information and reassurance.

of course there is the very appealing pose or series of postures that the cynic can take - including poses claiming denial of any personal belief - but it is still a pose or a belief that the pose will be effective in some way.


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Invisiblehawk
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2808957 - 06/19/04 04:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: hawk]
    #2808967 - 06/19/04 04:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Swami has not learned much has he

What part did I get wrong?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2808975 - 06/19/04 04:51 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

of course there is the very appealing pose or series of postures that the cynic can take - including poses claiming denial of any personal belief - but it is still a pose or a belief that the pose will be effective in some way.

Nice double-speak and reference to non-existent content. It is hard to have any sort of discussion when you read (or assume) that which was not written. It is frequently more appealing to respond to one's erroneous image of the poster than the words that ACTUALLY appear.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblehawk
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2808992 - 06/19/04 05:04 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

No, you have been talking about the same stuff for years it has not changed, you stated you learned this during the course of this year.  Your idea's remind me of a stagnate swamp only good for breading mosquito's that take people's blood. :nutkick:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: hawk]
    #2809024 - 06/19/04 05:25 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

No, you have been talking about the same stuff for years it has not changed
So inconsistency is a positive trait?

you stated you learned this during the course of this year
Learning is a good thing. It is a sign of growth.

Your idea's remind me of a stagnate swamp only good for breading mosquito's that take people's blood.
A thinking mind would respond with a coherent counter-point. Apparently, its it not possible for you to point out a flaw in my post so displaying your personal bias with an emotional rant is the absolute best that you have to offer fellow members.

See you next year. Bye, bye now.  :heart:


Edited by Swami (06/19/04 05:32 PM)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809034 - 06/19/04 05:33 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Gathering up all that I have learned in the past year, I offer this synopsis:

1. Belief connotes things not seen or evidenced else belief would not be required.


I believe the sun revolves around the earth, even though I can't see it when it is on the other side of the planet.

2. Belief is a good thing, even though it may be in something non-existent.

Implying that it is not a good thing to believe in something that, in your mind, does not exist?

3. When "choosing" a belief system, it is best to borrow a pre-existing system without questioning where the earlier system came from.

I think most people grow up with the belief system they own and don't learn to question it until later in life, if at all. I don't think most people grow up and THEN choose.

4. Most people "choose" a system that is based on their prevailing culture rather than on any form of rationality.

I'd say most belief systems, even if in something "non-existent" are very rational. The Christians believe in the bible. The bible is not irrational. (You guys are going to be so predictable on this one.)

5. Plasticity is extremely important. When reality fails to conform to the system, just add an exception clause.

I think most people try as best they can to be good people. Thank God there IS an exception clause.

6. Real-world "results" from following any system are not required (even though it is a "good" thing).

I don't understand what you mean by this.

7. If one's belief system is challenged, it is normal (and expected) to be become angry and sometimes violent, even if the beliefs include non-violence.

Actually, when someone gets angry, it's usually the person with no beliefs, imo.


8. It is most important to believe that ones' unfounded and unsubstantiated beliefs are more inportant and more valid (though they cannot be validated) than anothers'.

I haven't seen anyone on this forum tell anyone else that his or her beliefs are more important and valid than anyone else's. I usually see, however, those who don't believe in anything calling those who believe in something "fools".


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Frog]
    #2809083 - 06/19/04 06:02 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Ah, a poster with some balls! Er, I mean, some ovaries!

I believe the sun revolves around the earth, even though I can't see it when it is on the other side of the planet.
No, but by inference, you can see sunlight reflected from the moon and you may travel and note that the sun also shines on other parts of the world though at different times. This is evidentiary unlike a standard belief system.

Implying that it is not a good thing to believe in something that, in your mind, does not exist?
There is a saying in computerese: GIGO or garbage in = garbage out. By this I mean if one is basing one's actions or decisions on a falsehood (garbage in) then the decision or action will be wrong (garbage out) or will be right for the wrong reasons. Taking a non-religious belief for a moment, I generally crush poker opponents who make decisions based on how their luck or opponent's luck has been going.

I'd say most belief systems, even if in something "non-existent" are very rational. The Christians believe in the bible. The bible is not irrational. (You guys are going to be so predictable on this one.)
There certainly are glaring inconsistencies in the Bible which is indicative of a flawed system. The basic premise that it is the Word of God is supported only by the Bible itself. This is called self-referencing and is not a logical method of validation.

I think most people try as best they can to be good people. Thank God there IS an exception clause.
We miscommunicated on this one.

6. Real-world "results" from following any system are not required (even though it is a "good" thing).
If I do good acts then I will reap a reward. Sometimes yes; sometimes no.

When I pray I will get a positive result. Sometimes yes; sometimes no.

My marriage will be better if we are equally yoked. Nope, divorce cuts across all faith lines equally.

Actually, when someone gets angry, it's usually the person with no beliefs, imo.
See Hawk's earlier response. This is typical. How are you feeling when responding to this post? Loving, irritated or neutral?

I haven't seen anyone on this forum tell anyone else that his or her beliefs are more important and valid than anyone else's.
The words infidel and heathen were coined specifically as derogatory phrases towards non-believers or those of different faiths. This denotes a superior stance, does it not?

I usually see, however, those who don't believe in anything calling those who believe in something "fools".
We are all foolish in some areas and wise in others.

fool: One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding

judgement:

1. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating.

2. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense.


Would you call it a foolish act for someone to bury their children in dirt to protect them from evil spirits?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblehawk
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809124 - 06/19/04 06:24 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

All you did was take my argument out of context.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: hawk]
    #2809140 - 06/19/04 06:30 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

How is a personal attack any form of argument? Three posts from you so far in this thread with zero content. Are you trying to impress the readers with your vacuousness?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblehawk
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: Swami]
    #2809155 - 06/19/04 06:34 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

You claim these are things you learned this year. I am merely stating that you have been saying these things much longer then a year. So how have you learned? My post count is my own business and my emotion is as well.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: hawk]
    #2809167 - 06/19/04 06:39 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)


Quote:

All you did was take my argument out of context.






Your idea's remind me of a stagnate swamp only good for breading mosquito's that take people's blood.....how was this supposed to be taken?


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Invisiblehawk
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: wrestler_az]
    #2809177 - 06/19/04 06:43 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I was not attacking him only his idea's so by using logic this would not be a personal attack.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: hawk]
    #2809199 - 06/19/04 06:53 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

why do you feel the need to attack his ideas?


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Invisiblehawk
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: wrestler_az]
    #2809214 - 06/19/04 06:58 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Because this forum is called spirituality and philosophy, not debunking spirituality using philosophy.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Swami's Annual Summation on Belief [Re: hawk]
    #2809220 - 06/19/04 07:04 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

its implied....


--------------------
how's your WOW?





  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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