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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Sclorch]
    #571175 - 03/06/02 04:09 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

And if the devil rules the universe Pascal's argument goes out the window.

....AND
God Does.......We've wasted a..........No reward,
Not Exist:.......little piety but........no punishment.


This is so simplistic and the logic so faulty that I am actually surprised that you posted this. There are many unstated assumptions that must true for the wager to be valid. Everyone of the assumptions even by themselves are not valid.

.................perhaps been
.................better people.

Belief is not directly related to behavior. Were the WTC terrorists better people for acting on their belief?

There is not one single shred of evidence that religious people are any more moral or better people than atheists or agnostics. Divorce rate, alcoholism rate, suicide rate, adultery, etc. are the same in general. (Small communities like the Amish may stand outside these statistics, but for more than religious reasons.)


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (03/06/02 09:57 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: SofaJesus]
    #571182 - 03/06/02 04:19 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

it's just sometime it feels like you piss on a lot of peoples dreams of a different way of thinking ....
Nothing wrong with a different way of thinking, if it is thinking. Reading some non-corroborated fantasy story on the net or in a book and accepting it without back-up does not conform to the notion of thinking. If the ideas are clear and consistent, then they should stand up under scrutiny, not shrink when bright light is applied.

Sometimes a friend or teacher says or does the unpopular thing because he cares.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #571292 - 03/06/02 08:43 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Sometimes a friend or teacher says or does the unpopular thing because he cares.
I buy that. Like I said, if i'm really believe this stuff(and I do), and I want to tell people about it, i'm going to hear a lot of questions and criticism. So your posts do give me some practice for replying to people about my beliefs. They also force me to articulate some of the things that I believe, which is important because I think that the "flower children" of the 60's stopped believing in what they believed in because all that they had was a feeling, or better yet a knowing, but when someone challenged them in worlds, they didn't have much to back up that feeling with. However I hope your criticism doesn't cause some people to say "Oh, maybe Swami's right. Maybe this is bullshit" right before they make some kind of a breakthrough that could possibly help mankind in some small way.



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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Divine_Madness]
    #571468 - 03/06/02 12:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The reason I commented on no enlightened persons being here, is that we have no idea where were heading at


Its like trying to play basket ball without anyone knowing the rules. And we really havent got a clue what were playing, we
only know that we have to stay on a field. Some claim/think to know the rules couse they know a bit more, but they maybe
only know that the ball has to go in some basket.

Of course noone really knows for absolute certain what the goal of life is, so we have to take a good look at life and try to decide what the goal is. Some people believe that love, oneness with everyone, and becoming the physical manifestation of God is the goal.

This is life to me: all of the NBA all-stars get amnesia, get taken to a basketball court, are given a ball and told to figure it out on their own. Since they can't remember what to do, they do what feels most natural, and that is to put the ball in the hoop. Since they've forgotten what to do, all of the NBA players start shooting their balls at the hoops. After hours and hours of fighting over who is going to shoot and when, they decide to improvise a game the best they can, using one ball. Eventually they all agree on certain rules, based on what works best for everyone.



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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #574263 - 03/09/02 03:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

This is so simplistic and the logic so faulty that I am actually surprised that you posted this. There are many unstated assumptions that must true for the wager to be valid. Everyone of the assumptions even by themselves are not valid.

I never said this wager was valid. Of course the assumptions are invalid. Note the line I wrote directly under it...
I said that if this is why you believe something, then your goals/desires/wants are clouding your judgement, then that belief is not valid and your faith is therefore blind.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Sclorch]
    #574552 - 03/09/02 10:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)



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Offlinepoopship
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Anonymous]
    #575907 - 03/11/02 03:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

the over reliance on "hard science" is a purely cultural thing that has developed in the last few centuries. just because we have made advances with one way of thinking in no way implies there are no other ways of doing things and getting results. the fact that we rely on logic and "fact" is, in my opinion, the one thing that will keep us from truly discoving the important things that await us. in fact, all of our experience as humans is just that, experience, not words. we can never fully convey the feeling of love or hate with merely words; they are mere shadows of the feeling itself. experience, then, is reality, not logic or words or thinking... those are only your ego trying to simplify things so that it can understand, or at least convince itself it understands. things are beyond understanding, get over it and be happy

all aboard
poopship


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Offlinepoopship
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: poopship]
    #575910 - 03/11/02 04:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

another thought in the same direction...
the link on the previous page describes an experiement in physics which basically denies the existence of the principle of local causality, which states that the only things that can affect an object are local... nothing outside the local can influence something. this was proven by an experiment in which two subatomic particles are split from eachother. to conserve momentum, these two particles sent in opposite directions have opposite spin, one negative one positive. now, after separating these particles several miles, even more, they send one of the particles though a device that switches the spin. it has been found that the other particle, no matter which spin is in the first particle, has the opposing spin of the first AFTER the switch. this has been shown to be the case 100% (!) of the time (how is that for "hard evidence"). ( this can be more thoroughly described in Gary Zukav's book "The Dancing Wu Li Masters," a book I recomment to anybody interested in physics that hates math.) these things INSTANTANEOUSLY COMMUNICATE! FASTER THAN LIGHT. space and time are ignored (probably because they don't really exist!). the is fact is that local causality is out the window; things have influences from all over the universe and everything is very intimately connected. now, the fact that everything is connected, that everything in the universe effects every other, would logically lead us to believe that there is no way of understanding it... its beyond comprehension. so "hard science" gets you nowhere because it simplifies the infinite into the finite, which just is not the case.

all aboard
poopship


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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #575989 - 03/11/02 05:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

DivineMadness: A Salami sandwiched between two pieces of bread is what I call it.. One is Swamism and the other is Shroomism. heh

Learyfan: Who are those gentleman?

Swami:
If you believe in a soul then you must base that on something...

Belief in a soul is a tool and a form of expression ~ not based on proving its existence. Though, not everyone will share the same beliefs of soul.

What does that mean? The people here come across as neither more nor less advanced than any other group of people that I have met. (see my second quote.)

He was probably speaking about the potential positive side psy drugs can create for spiritual and personal growth [soul].

Now if only ONE person could demonsrarte that mind-to-mind link then we would have some REAL evidence of universal interconnectivity, but alas, it is lacking.

Of course, not! Take people's claims [unintentional or not] with a grain of salt.

You were mostly right when you said perception errors [trying to make objective claims] can occur from experiences. But.......with telepathy, I consider it deep and strong affinity between persons. That's it. A level of communication we have not evolved to yet, universally. The experience could be real, but it's the perception is the achilles. So an outsider has to discern what is acceptable or not in the phenomenon and put aside mad claims.

Oh yeah, ever heard of a Borg? :P

Anyways, I get the impression you haven't seen much of people operating outside the "parameters" of normal? My experiences are sprinkled with the unusual. I notice the little things 'certain' people tell me. Certain facts about me I never revealed yet they knew. Funny thing is, my *docs* speak a different language. They think they know with their *science*, yet are involuntary ignorant of my health and well-being.


Lastly... The thought that came to me is just an observation, not directed at anybody here: There's quite a difference between deep-seated distrust or mistrust [veiled rational thinking] and just rational thinking. I've noticed this among believers and non-believers...... Mostly from Christian fundamentalists and atheists I come across on the Net.


Frankly, I don't even now why I'm here discussing this when I should be outside making snow angels! Bah

Rock the Kazba!
ArCh


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: poopship]
    #576145 - 03/11/02 08:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think marijuana should be legalized

 


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #576157 - 03/11/02 09:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Belief in a soul is a tool and a form of expression ~ not based on proving its existence. Though, not everyone will share the same beliefs of soul.
That is all fine, but the idea MUST originate from somewhere and have some compelling reason to adopt such an outlook. I wasn't talking about proving, but in basing one's outlook and approach to life on something ephemeral.

If it is just parroting what you were taught in church/temple or book; if you are merely adopting another's view, to me that is a sign of weaknes and laziness.

But.......with telepathy, I consider it deep and strong affinity between persons.
I can go with that, but others have talked about highly SPECIFIC communication which is what I challenged.

Funny thing is, my *docs* speak a different language. They think they know with their *science*, yet are involuntary ignorant of my health and well-being.
Here you are incorrectly identifying science with the brain-washing that goes on in medical schools and institutions. Yes, science is taught there, but so are prevailing and limiting attitudes which have nothing to do with science, but social acceptance and in maintaining the "priesthood" status of being a doctor.

However, note that western science is generally FAR more efficacious in treating trauma and illness than your local "intuitive" shaman (entheogenic or otherwise).

The people here come across as neither more nor less advanced than any other group of people that I have met. (see my second quote.)

He was probably speaking about the potential positive side psy drugs can create for spiritual and personal growth [soul].
Potential? What the hell does that mean? Where are the ACTUAL benefits? Not some maybes, mights and coulds, but some REAL postitve changes?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (03/12/02 12:14 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #576186 - 03/11/02 09:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think marijuana should be legalized
I think people should stop talking about it and start to do something about it.

Join and participate in NORML, the November Coalition, the Libertarian Party or whatever avenue most resonates with you. Talking to like-minded people about what should be done accomplishes absolutely nothing.

I waited for 25 years for the problem to go away before I took action as I could see that the WOD will not just go away.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinebedetached
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Registered: 01/20/02
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576242 - 03/11/02 11:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

amen, preach that good schniik brotha


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through our senses the world appears. through our reactions we create delusions. without reactions the world becomes clear.


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576361 - 03/12/02 01:10 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a member of NORML. Also a supporter of the Green Party. We must band together to make this happen.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576699 - 03/12/02 11:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Swami, these concepts are far too complicated for the common man to be able to prove. Should we just give up hope because we can't prove it? Come on man. You're really trying to put out the fire of hope in these people.

Swami what in the world do we really know without a shadow of a doubt? I know you want people to base their theories on evidence, but when it comes to concepts like "is there a soul", you just have to believe, or not believe. Like I said, i'm not waiting around for science to tell me it's true. I've done a lot of amature experiments with people and animals to not believe in a soul. I'm beyond faith.

Why don't you stop trying to crush people beliefs unless you have proof that they should believe otherwise. If you have proof that there is no such thing as a soul, let us know. But if not, then why don't you just quit it.

ArCh_TemPlaR...what gentlemen do you mean? Leary?



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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576742 - 03/12/02 12:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

swami, how much of what you regard as "science" do you think will be considered accurate in 1000 years? Certainly almost all the ideas on the origins of life, consciousness and the universe will be totally rewritten. Science's attempts at explanations in most of these areas are complete guesswork with no more basis in fact than meeting aliens on shrooms. In fact i think the aliens you meet on shrooms have science beaten hands down in this area.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576771 - 03/12/02 12:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'm just going to throw in a few cents worth of comments in here:

I could just chalk it up as chemicals in my synapses, but that's a pretty boring way to live life in my opinion.
Boring or exciting, truth is more important than entertainment.


To quote a Simpsons episode (Leonard Nemoy introducing x-files episode) "This story is in it's entirety, true, which is to say, false. But it is in the name of entertainment, so doesn't that make it ok? No."
Or something like that. Hilarious, and true, anyway.

A person without faith is like a little kid waiting for his mommy to give him permission to believe in something.
I actually misread this at first and agreed. This is my version for it.
"A person with faith is like a little kid waiting for the santa to come down the chimney."
That isn't to say one shouldn't have faith in anything, but some people here might stray away from the middle way I myself  think one does good in adopting.

This is the beginning of proving the universal connectedness of everything in the universe.
Quantuum entanglement is not pseudo-science based on some whimsical belief system. It is still theoretical in many aspects, but this knowledge base has been built up over centuries of physics research, observation and experimentation.

Did you know that Roger Penrose recently came up with a theory that dismisses quantum entanglement at larger scales? This might mean that all that quantum weirdness stays put on the quantum domain, and never reaches our direct experiental macrocosmic world. That means there is no reason to believe that human minds or anything else are interconnected in the same manner.
Unless you follow up some theory on quantum processes underlying the mental processes that is (which do exist, I seem to recall something about small enough nano-tubes in the dendrites(?) that might be influenced by quantum phenomena)
btw. I didn't even look at the article, but Iv'e read "the holographic universe" by m. talbot a while ago.

Sometimes a friend or teacher says or does the unpopular thing because he cares.
I feel like quoting Michael Shermer (editor of "The Sceptic"):
"What does it mean to have an open mind? It is to find the essential balance between orthodoxy and heresy, between a total commitment to the status quo and the blind pursuit of new ideas."
I am beginning to like this guy myself.


the over reliance on "hard science" is a purely cultural thing that has developed in the last few centuries.
As is any faith in spirits. Although it is a more primitive reality gloss. Do you believe in evolution? You cannot escape your cultural context. (see below)

If you believe in a soul then you must base that on something...
Most people base it, or in my mind *should* base it, on personal experience of some kind or other. One criticism of science that I agree with (although not completely) is that we rely so much on our measurement tools that we dismiss the human experience entirely. It might be that the human organism as a whole is able to experience /recieve signals that *so far* are out of bounds of our current technology.
(although the current theories about the divine experiences and their neurochemical causes are rather convincing)

In the end it is our human minds that interpret the results from our instruments, so *anything* willl be human-flavoured. I fear we will never know of anything truly objective as long as we remain humans.


Oh yeah, ever heard of a Borg?
Who is to say telepathy is to be achieved only by spiritual means? Or by spiritual means at all?
Certainly you cannot miss to see that this might be spirituality manifesting itself through technology? Even McKenna thought technology was the answer to his visual language and the transformation of mankind (if you subscribe to his views, he should certainly be far out enough for most of you).

But.......with telepathy, I consider it deep and strong affinity between persons.
I can go with that, but others have talked about highly SPECIFIC communication which is what I challenged.

I suppose this will be proven by science in the future. My own (infrequent) experience with this leads me to believe that it has something to do with brainwaves, and the emmitance and reception of them.

And to those who belive in the basic cosmic-ness of all things. Maybe "god" is trying to tell you something through swami? Maybe he's there to balance you. The more you fly off to an extreme, the more extreme the counterpart has to be in order to get you to the middle again...

Oh, and if nothing of this makes sense, I have a perfectly valid exlanation: My horoscope says I'm not at my most rational these days... :wink: 


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Timeleech]
    #576800 - 03/12/02 01:22 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

You guys have really made me see the light, so tell ya what i'm going to do:

Since my belief that tomorrow will come is only based on faith, i'm going to spend my money on every stupid thing i've ever wanted to buy, show up to work naked, and tell my boss to go fuck himself, and have unprotected sex with every girl that'll let me have sex with them. Fuck it. I have no concrete proof that i'll be alive tomorrow.

In fact, my friends and parents have always said that they love me, but that could all but untrue. I have no proof that they do, so i'm going to tell them to fuck off because they've tried to lie to me.

Also, I was having a good day today, and I was "happy", but since I can't prove that i'm actually happy, and not just deluded, I should have a shitty day to be on the safe side. After all, I can't prove that "happienss" even exists.

Nothing is true unless a scientist tells me it's true.

Now that's sarcasm!





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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #576822 - 03/12/02 01:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Haha ha! Quite funny, and although it's sarcastic, I'm going to quote myself:

"That isn't to say one shouldn't have faith in anything, but some people here might stray away from the middle way I myself think one does good in adopting"

I just felt very sceptic today. As far as I know no scientist knows how we transform the conscious decision to close out hand, into the actual action (I know, it's a cliche...). My mere hacking and slashing at my keyboard is an act not entirely supported by science...

Since my belief that tomorrow will come is only based on faith...
My similiar belief is based on the physical laws (gravitation->earth rotates sun), and the astronomical fact, nay, let me rather say observation to be safe, that we are relatively well shielded against any heavenly bodies interscecting earths path. Nuclear war doesn't seem imminent, neither do I know of any major threats that are likely to occur between now and 24:00.

Ah, I'm getting tired of this. Tomorrow I will announce that I am channeling the eschaton and trying to prepare humanity for the exteriorization of the soul and internalization of the body in the year 2012 :smile:


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Timeleech]
    #576864 - 03/12/02 02:31 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

People should stop having scientifically un-approved opinions in my opin.....I mean my.....oh shit, fuck it.



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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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