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OfflineLearyfanS
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Swami/Shroomism relations
    #570432 - 03/05/02 12:35 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I've been thinking. There are people on this board who are always thinking about different possibilities that the universe has to offer. They believe in UFO's, astral projection, clairvoyance, etc. etc.. I am one of those people, but the biggest believer of them all is Shroomism.

Then there are the devils advocates. The king of the non-believers is Swami. He challenges many of the controversial ideas thrown out there because he wants to believe, but needs us to provide iron clad proof before he can. These people are needed here. It's good that someone is challenging all of the ideas that are thrown out here so that 1) we can know what the non-believers will say(we'll run into it eventually) and 2) because we all shouldn't just preach to the choir all of the time.

My only problem is is that the non-believers might disbelieve a little too much sometimes. I think it's good that people have faith that there is more to this world than we now believe, but it's possible that too much nay saying can take the wind out of the sails of some believers before they are able to actually prove, or at least show evidence of whatever phenomenon they're into.

For instance, let's say that there is a shroomerite who has a theory about moving things with his mind, and Swami says "Ok move something with your mind. If you can't, then it's not possible.", and the believer tries, but is not successful, and then gives up. This believer has just been talked out of trying to do this. It's possible that had the shroomerite kept trying before he gave up, he could have made a huge breakthrough because of faith. Or maybe skaMariaPastora will stop believing that she can contact a greater power through the use of 5MEO-DMT because at this point she can't explain to Swami why her realizations are valid.

I'm not saying that anyone should dilute themselves. We need to have people to challenge us a little bit, so we can strengthen our own truths, but it's possible that too much nay saying can stop someone before they make a breakthrough. What do you think??



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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



Edited by Learyfan (03/06/02 08:33 AM)


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OfflineDivine_Madness
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570444 - 03/05/02 12:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well, I have to say I feel like Im right in between the two poles.
But since you complained that the sceptics are a bit too sceptic, which I do agree with, Im gonna give some arguments against the believers.
They are also way to convinced in their believe. I have the feeling people here think were already flying through the sky, while were still on the ground.
It aint that easy you know.

I have the feeling that the last thing youll find here is a spiritually enlightened person.

Were like a bunch of ants trying to invent an airplain becouse we've seen one flying.

I think this is the reason the sceptics are pulling us down so much, we try to jump to high.
Its karma.


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its all placebo


Edited by Divine_Madness (03/05/02 01:03 PM)


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Divine_Madness]
    #570462 - 03/05/02 01:17 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

They are also way to convinced in their believe. I have the feeling people here think were already flying through the sky, while
  were still on the ground.
  It aint that easy you know.

Some people just have a lot of faith in what they believe. I think faith is very important. We need to stay excited about what we believe in, in order to be able to make a breakthrough.

I have the feeling that the last thing youll find here is a spiritually enlightened person.
What's your definition of a spiritually enlightened person? Do we all have to be Buddahs or wizards in order to have beliefs about spiritual matters? What if someone had looked at Michael Jordan's highschool basketball team, and said "I think the last thing you'll find here is the next Dr. J". I see all of us shroomerites as Michael Jordans in the making. Don't come down on us because we haven't realized our goal yet. We're working on it :smile:

These are very complex subjects here people. It's hard for the common man to explain them sometimes.

 


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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570493 - 03/05/02 01:56 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

They believe in UFO's, astral projection, clairvoyance, etc. etc.. I am one of those people, but the biggest believer of them all is Shroomism.

From my extensive experience, people believe for several reasons:

1. Enculturation / social pressure: "I am a Catholic because my parents were Catholic."

2. Desire: "We will soon shift to a new spiritual dimension."

3. Fear: "I believe that my soul is immortal and that I will live forever when I die." (And this belief came from our forefathers who also feared their mortality.)

4. Misperception: "I saw a UFO last night." (It was actually a meteor.)

5. Selective memory: "You always call when I am thinking about you." (Disregards the thousand times he thought of you, but you did not call.)

6. Heresay: Streiber wrote a book about aliens that he says is non-fiction.

7. Hard evidence.

Faith is something masquerading as 1-6. Tell me why I should possibly accept anything other than #7?

Tell me why faith is good? Should I have faith in Bin Laden, Santa Claus, Rev Sun Myung Moon? Why not? Is faith only in some things good? How are these things discerned?

Too much skepticism? No one ever got burned by being cautious and investigating, but the contrary is most certainly true!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570522 - 03/05/02 02:29 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"Tell me why faith is good?"

Any scientific theory is faith in the beginning, before it is proven. It has to be, because if its not proven the only thing the scientist has to go on is his gut instinct. For instance, in the 18th century somebody (I forget who) thought up the germ theory of disease, that people got sick because of tiny little organisms that attacked your body from the inside. Obviously, everybody thought it was a ridiculous idea, but he had faith in it because it made sense to him. Later, when it was proven correct, people agreed.

I view matters of spirituality as the same thing. They are theories that have yet to be proven because our science is not prepared to tackle them. Probably a lot of them are wrong, but unless we explore them we'll never know. For instance, I believe in a cosmic overmind because I have experienced things in which that conclusion makes the most sense to me out of any I have pondered. Sure, I can't prove it, but if nobody even recognizes it as something that might be true, it will never be proven. I could just chalk it up as chemicals in my synapses, but that's a pretty boring way to live life in my opinion. I'm going to try to explore this phenomenon further and see if I can learn more about it. Maybe a couple hundred years into the future, people will be able to have some kind of scientific theory that explains it, but that will only happen if people have faith that it could be possible.

So in a way us faith-loving shroomerites are the vanguards of our species, boldly pushing the boundaries of what is known in the hope that someday the truth shall be apparent.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570526 - 03/05/02 02:31 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I just don't think you should write something off because you can't prove it. I don't think that all faith is blind faith. If you live your life without certain beliefs just because you can't prove them, then you are a man without a goal. You have nothing to aim for. A person without faith is like a little kid waiting for his mommy to give him permission to believe in something.

I'm not going to sit around and wait for science to prove that the soul exists before I believe it. I'm not going to wait for the federal government to admit that UFO's exist before I believe it(this one's the easiest because i've seen TONS of great evidence(much more concrete than "I saw a UFO last night"), and I find it ridiculous that people don't believe by now. I'm not going to wait for science to discover once and for all that our minds have a reducing valve which holds back, and keeps out the majority of our soul(and irrelanvant information), and that psychedelic drugs open that valve wider to let more soul in, etc etc etc..

I'm not going to wait around for everyone to validate what I deeply believe to be true, and I don't think i'm being "blind" because I have faith in that.



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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #570529 - 03/05/02 02:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Very well said skaMariaPastora.



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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570532 - 03/05/02 02:40 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Very well said yourself :smile: 


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OfflineTypingwords
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #570588 - 03/05/02 03:55 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"A person without faith is like a little kid waiting for his mommy to give him permission to believe in something."

hahahahaha! pure genius

yes, both of you very well said. I couldn't agree more.


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everything everyone everywhere.
forever and ever


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OfflineDivine_Madness
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570608 - 03/05/02 04:33 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The reason I commented on no enlightened persons being here, is that we have no idea where were heading at.

Its like trying to play basket ball without anyone knowing the rules. And we really havent got a clue what were playing, we only know that we have to stay on a field. Some claim/think to know the rules couse they know a bit more, but they maybe only know that the ball has to go in some basket.


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its all placebo


Edited by Divine_Madness (03/05/02 04:38 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #570611 - 03/05/02 04:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Any scientific theory is faith in the beginning, before it is proven.
Not wholly true. It is one possible explanation of many that the scientist may explore. The scientists say his theory MAY be true. Yes, it takes persistance and vision to follow through, but is based on some form of rational thought. (BTW, you may have been referring to Louis Pasteur)

They are theories that have yet to be proven because our science is not prepared to tackle them. Probably a lot of them are wrong, but unless we explore them we'll never know.
Agreed, but a theory MUST be based on something! "Dolphins from Sirius built the Pyramids" is a theory, but not one avenue that needs to be explored as it is based on nothing at all.

I could just chalk it up as chemicals in my synapses, but that's a pretty boring way to live life in my opinion.
Boring or exciting, truth is more important than entertainment.

So in a way us faith-loving shroomerites are the vanguards of our species, boldly pushing the boundaries of what is known in the hope that someday the truth shall be apparent.
Perhaps, but in half a century, I have not seen one thing in the realm of pseudo-science or metaphysics boldy push any envelope anywhere. Every single area has fallen flat. Please state just ONE real-world example. The Pasteur example that you gave was based on observation, not faith.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570614 - 03/05/02 04:40 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The king of the non-believers is Swami. He challenges many of the controversial ideas thrown out there because he wants to believe, but needs us to provide iron clad prove before he can.
Ironclad, heh! Have not even seen a wisp of smoke to back any outrageous claim.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSofaJesus
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Typingwords]
    #570615 - 03/05/02 04:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I've been reading this site for a while now and I like to hear all of the ideas that get thrown around, like shroomims stuff... You don't have to believe everything you read, but its damn good that we get to hear all of these different idea with out being punished like people had been centuries ago for going against the words of their church

It's good to have Swami's input on this site because you can push the concepts that people come up with by grounded them in the bases of concrete thought, BUT -- what if....... thats all What if???? At some point people started saying what if the world isnt the center of the Universe, and that maybe all creatures evolve over time --- And I'm pretty damn sure you've all hear that line at some point, but seriously Swami, if the "thing" that created the universe just came and knocked on our doors to tell us how to truly view the universe what would be left to learn -- what would be the point -- and if we have conversations about this kind of stuff, then we do not have the answer and for that we have no riight to judge someone else as being wrong...

Faith is just in yourself to be true to yourself --- You're true to yourself all the time swami in the way you put across your theories just as much as shroomism does...I'm sure "the thing that created all" would like it for us to contemplate everything and not disavow what we can't see.

it's just sometime it feels like you piss on a lot of peoples dreams of a different way of thinking .... But don't worry will all figure it out someday

SKAMARIAPASTORA IS THE COOLEST BASSIST I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #570637 - 03/05/02 05:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

A person without faith is like a little kid waiting for his mommy to give him permission to believe in something.
This is your basic derogatory slam that is without merit or meaning.

I'm not going to sit around and wait for science to prove that the soul exists before I believe it.
If you believe in a soul then you must base that on something...

...and I find it ridiculous that people don't believe by now
Probably because your tons of evidence (fuzzy photos, 50 year-old unverifiable stories, fraud, hoaxes, Alien Autopsies, Phoenix Lights) is not very convincing at all.

and that psychedelic drugs open that valve wider to let more soul in,
What does that mean? The people here come across as neither more nor less advanced than any other group of people that I have met. (see my second quote.)


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570655 - 03/05/02 05:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"Perhaps, but in half a century, I have not seen one thing in the realm of pseudo-science or metaphysics boldy push any envelope anywhere. Every single area has fallen flat. Please state just ONE real-world example."

Did you ever read this article?  http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html
It was posted in this forum a few weeks ago.  This is the beginning of proving the universal connectedness of everything in the universe.  I'd be curious to know what you think of it.  There's still a lot of speculation, but I think its a good start toward scientizing metaphysical concepts. 

Oh and SofaJesus, that was an excellent point man :smile: 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #570667 - 03/05/02 05:56 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quantuum entanglement is not pseudo-science based on some whimsical belief system. It is still theoretical in many aspects, but this knowledge base has been built up over centuries of physics research, observation and experimentation.

There's still a lot of speculation, but I think its a good start toward scientizing metaphysical concepts.
Perhaps, but note that it is hard science that is doing so.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570668 - 03/05/02 06:00 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, but its taking steps toward proving what buddhists have known for centuries!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570669 - 03/05/02 06:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

From the article on the holographic universe:

It is obviously much easier to understand how information can travel from the mind of individual 'A' to that of individual 'B' at a far distance point...

Now if only ONE person could demonsrarte that mind-to-mind link then we would have some REAL evidence of universal interconnectivity, but alas, it is lacking.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #570773 - 03/05/02 08:14 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting link...

I haven't yet read "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot, but I plan on it.

I wonder how many of you are familiar with Pascal's wager....


...................Believe..................Don't Believe
....AND
God Exists:.....Heaven=...............Hell=
..................Eternal...............Eternal
..................Reward................Damnation

....AND
God Does.......We've wasted a..........No reward,
Not Exist:.......little piety but........no punishment.
.................perhaps been
.................better people.

If your "faith" is based on this, it's time to re-evaluate your thought processes.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Sclorch]
    #570775 - 03/05/02 08:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

And don't misunderstand this as a Christianity-thing.
If your goals (or desires or dreams....) mottle your thinking, you, too, are guilty of adhering to this "smart gambling" policy.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Sclorch]
    #571175 - 03/06/02 04:09 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

And if the devil rules the universe Pascal's argument goes out the window.

....AND
God Does.......We've wasted a..........No reward,
Not Exist:.......little piety but........no punishment.


This is so simplistic and the logic so faulty that I am actually surprised that you posted this. There are many unstated assumptions that must true for the wager to be valid. Everyone of the assumptions even by themselves are not valid.

.................perhaps been
.................better people.

Belief is not directly related to behavior. Were the WTC terrorists better people for acting on their belief?

There is not one single shred of evidence that religious people are any more moral or better people than atheists or agnostics. Divorce rate, alcoholism rate, suicide rate, adultery, etc. are the same in general. (Small communities like the Amish may stand outside these statistics, but for more than religious reasons.)


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (03/06/02 09:57 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: SofaJesus]
    #571182 - 03/06/02 04:19 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

it's just sometime it feels like you piss on a lot of peoples dreams of a different way of thinking ....
Nothing wrong with a different way of thinking, if it is thinking. Reading some non-corroborated fantasy story on the net or in a book and accepting it without back-up does not conform to the notion of thinking. If the ideas are clear and consistent, then they should stand up under scrutiny, not shrink when bright light is applied.

Sometimes a friend or teacher says or does the unpopular thing because he cares.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #571292 - 03/06/02 08:43 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Sometimes a friend or teacher says or does the unpopular thing because he cares.
I buy that. Like I said, if i'm really believe this stuff(and I do), and I want to tell people about it, i'm going to hear a lot of questions and criticism. So your posts do give me some practice for replying to people about my beliefs. They also force me to articulate some of the things that I believe, which is important because I think that the "flower children" of the 60's stopped believing in what they believed in because all that they had was a feeling, or better yet a knowing, but when someone challenged them in worlds, they didn't have much to back up that feeling with. However I hope your criticism doesn't cause some people to say "Oh, maybe Swami's right. Maybe this is bullshit" right before they make some kind of a breakthrough that could possibly help mankind in some small way.



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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Divine_Madness]
    #571468 - 03/06/02 12:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The reason I commented on no enlightened persons being here, is that we have no idea where were heading at


Its like trying to play basket ball without anyone knowing the rules. And we really havent got a clue what were playing, we
only know that we have to stay on a field. Some claim/think to know the rules couse they know a bit more, but they maybe
only know that the ball has to go in some basket.

Of course noone really knows for absolute certain what the goal of life is, so we have to take a good look at life and try to decide what the goal is. Some people believe that love, oneness with everyone, and becoming the physical manifestation of God is the goal.

This is life to me: all of the NBA all-stars get amnesia, get taken to a basketball court, are given a ball and told to figure it out on their own. Since they can't remember what to do, they do what feels most natural, and that is to put the ball in the hoop. Since they've forgotten what to do, all of the NBA players start shooting their balls at the hoops. After hours and hours of fighting over who is going to shoot and when, they decide to improvise a game the best they can, using one ball. Eventually they all agree on certain rules, based on what works best for everyone.



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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #574263 - 03/09/02 03:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

This is so simplistic and the logic so faulty that I am actually surprised that you posted this. There are many unstated assumptions that must true for the wager to be valid. Everyone of the assumptions even by themselves are not valid.

I never said this wager was valid. Of course the assumptions are invalid. Note the line I wrote directly under it...
I said that if this is why you believe something, then your goals/desires/wants are clouding your judgement, then that belief is not valid and your faith is therefore blind.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Sclorch]
    #574552 - 03/09/02 10:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)



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Offlinepoopship
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Anonymous]
    #575907 - 03/11/02 03:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

the over reliance on "hard science" is a purely cultural thing that has developed in the last few centuries. just because we have made advances with one way of thinking in no way implies there are no other ways of doing things and getting results. the fact that we rely on logic and "fact" is, in my opinion, the one thing that will keep us from truly discoving the important things that await us. in fact, all of our experience as humans is just that, experience, not words. we can never fully convey the feeling of love or hate with merely words; they are mere shadows of the feeling itself. experience, then, is reality, not logic or words or thinking... those are only your ego trying to simplify things so that it can understand, or at least convince itself it understands. things are beyond understanding, get over it and be happy

all aboard
poopship


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Offlinepoopship
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: poopship]
    #575910 - 03/11/02 04:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

another thought in the same direction...
the link on the previous page describes an experiement in physics which basically denies the existence of the principle of local causality, which states that the only things that can affect an object are local... nothing outside the local can influence something. this was proven by an experiment in which two subatomic particles are split from eachother. to conserve momentum, these two particles sent in opposite directions have opposite spin, one negative one positive. now, after separating these particles several miles, even more, they send one of the particles though a device that switches the spin. it has been found that the other particle, no matter which spin is in the first particle, has the opposing spin of the first AFTER the switch. this has been shown to be the case 100% (!) of the time (how is that for "hard evidence"). ( this can be more thoroughly described in Gary Zukav's book "The Dancing Wu Li Masters," a book I recomment to anybody interested in physics that hates math.) these things INSTANTANEOUSLY COMMUNICATE! FASTER THAN LIGHT. space and time are ignored (probably because they don't really exist!). the is fact is that local causality is out the window; things have influences from all over the universe and everything is very intimately connected. now, the fact that everything is connected, that everything in the universe effects every other, would logically lead us to believe that there is no way of understanding it... its beyond comprehension. so "hard science" gets you nowhere because it simplifies the infinite into the finite, which just is not the case.

all aboard
poopship


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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #575989 - 03/11/02 05:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

DivineMadness: A Salami sandwiched between two pieces of bread is what I call it.. One is Swamism and the other is Shroomism. heh

Learyfan: Who are those gentleman?

Swami:
If you believe in a soul then you must base that on something...

Belief in a soul is a tool and a form of expression ~ not based on proving its existence. Though, not everyone will share the same beliefs of soul.

What does that mean? The people here come across as neither more nor less advanced than any other group of people that I have met. (see my second quote.)

He was probably speaking about the potential positive side psy drugs can create for spiritual and personal growth [soul].

Now if only ONE person could demonsrarte that mind-to-mind link then we would have some REAL evidence of universal interconnectivity, but alas, it is lacking.

Of course, not! Take people's claims [unintentional or not] with a grain of salt.

You were mostly right when you said perception errors [trying to make objective claims] can occur from experiences. But.......with telepathy, I consider it deep and strong affinity between persons. That's it. A level of communication we have not evolved to yet, universally. The experience could be real, but it's the perception is the achilles. So an outsider has to discern what is acceptable or not in the phenomenon and put aside mad claims.

Oh yeah, ever heard of a Borg? :P

Anyways, I get the impression you haven't seen much of people operating outside the "parameters" of normal? My experiences are sprinkled with the unusual. I notice the little things 'certain' people tell me. Certain facts about me I never revealed yet they knew. Funny thing is, my *docs* speak a different language. They think they know with their *science*, yet are involuntary ignorant of my health and well-being.


Lastly... The thought that came to me is just an observation, not directed at anybody here: There's quite a difference between deep-seated distrust or mistrust [veiled rational thinking] and just rational thinking. I've noticed this among believers and non-believers...... Mostly from Christian fundamentalists and atheists I come across on the Net.


Frankly, I don't even now why I'm here discussing this when I should be outside making snow angels! Bah

Rock the Kazba!
ArCh


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: poopship]
    #576145 - 03/11/02 08:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think marijuana should be legalized

 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #576157 - 03/11/02 09:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Belief in a soul is a tool and a form of expression ~ not based on proving its existence. Though, not everyone will share the same beliefs of soul.
That is all fine, but the idea MUST originate from somewhere and have some compelling reason to adopt such an outlook. I wasn't talking about proving, but in basing one's outlook and approach to life on something ephemeral.

If it is just parroting what you were taught in church/temple or book; if you are merely adopting another's view, to me that is a sign of weaknes and laziness.

But.......with telepathy, I consider it deep and strong affinity between persons.
I can go with that, but others have talked about highly SPECIFIC communication which is what I challenged.

Funny thing is, my *docs* speak a different language. They think they know with their *science*, yet are involuntary ignorant of my health and well-being.
Here you are incorrectly identifying science with the brain-washing that goes on in medical schools and institutions. Yes, science is taught there, but so are prevailing and limiting attitudes which have nothing to do with science, but social acceptance and in maintaining the "priesthood" status of being a doctor.

However, note that western science is generally FAR more efficacious in treating trauma and illness than your local "intuitive" shaman (entheogenic or otherwise).

The people here come across as neither more nor less advanced than any other group of people that I have met. (see my second quote.)

He was probably speaking about the potential positive side psy drugs can create for spiritual and personal growth [soul].
Potential? What the hell does that mean? Where are the ACTUAL benefits? Not some maybes, mights and coulds, but some REAL postitve changes?



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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (03/12/02 12:14 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #576186 - 03/11/02 09:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think marijuana should be legalized
I think people should stop talking about it and start to do something about it.

Join and participate in NORML, the November Coalition, the Libertarian Party or whatever avenue most resonates with you. Talking to like-minded people about what should be done accomplishes absolutely nothing.

I waited for 25 years for the problem to go away before I took action as I could see that the WOD will not just go away.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinebedetached
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576242 - 03/11/02 11:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

amen, preach that good schniik brotha


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through our senses the world appears. through our reactions we create delusions. without reactions the world becomes clear.


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576361 - 03/12/02 01:10 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a member of NORML. Also a supporter of the Green Party. We must band together to make this happen.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576699 - 03/12/02 11:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Swami, these concepts are far too complicated for the common man to be able to prove. Should we just give up hope because we can't prove it? Come on man. You're really trying to put out the fire of hope in these people.

Swami what in the world do we really know without a shadow of a doubt? I know you want people to base their theories on evidence, but when it comes to concepts like "is there a soul", you just have to believe, or not believe. Like I said, i'm not waiting around for science to tell me it's true. I've done a lot of amature experiments with people and animals to not believe in a soul. I'm beyond faith.

Why don't you stop trying to crush people beliefs unless you have proof that they should believe otherwise. If you have proof that there is no such thing as a soul, let us know. But if not, then why don't you just quit it.

ArCh_TemPlaR...what gentlemen do you mean? Leary?



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Mp3 of the month: The Ides - Psychedelic Ride



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576742 - 03/12/02 12:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

swami, how much of what you regard as "science" do you think will be considered accurate in 1000 years? Certainly almost all the ideas on the origins of life, consciousness and the universe will be totally rewritten. Science's attempts at explanations in most of these areas are complete guesswork with no more basis in fact than meeting aliens on shrooms. In fact i think the aliens you meet on shrooms have science beaten hands down in this area.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576771 - 03/12/02 12:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'm just going to throw in a few cents worth of comments in here:

I could just chalk it up as chemicals in my synapses, but that's a pretty boring way to live life in my opinion.
Boring or exciting, truth is more important than entertainment.


To quote a Simpsons episode (Leonard Nemoy introducing x-files episode) "This story is in it's entirety, true, which is to say, false. But it is in the name of entertainment, so doesn't that make it ok? No."
Or something like that. Hilarious, and true, anyway.

A person without faith is like a little kid waiting for his mommy to give him permission to believe in something.
I actually misread this at first and agreed. This is my version for it.
"A person with faith is like a little kid waiting for the santa to come down the chimney."
That isn't to say one shouldn't have faith in anything, but some people here might stray away from the middle way I myself  think one does good in adopting.

This is the beginning of proving the universal connectedness of everything in the universe.
Quantuum entanglement is not pseudo-science based on some whimsical belief system. It is still theoretical in many aspects, but this knowledge base has been built up over centuries of physics research, observation and experimentation.

Did you know that Roger Penrose recently came up with a theory that dismisses quantum entanglement at larger scales? This might mean that all that quantum weirdness stays put on the quantum domain, and never reaches our direct experiental macrocosmic world. That means there is no reason to believe that human minds or anything else are interconnected in the same manner.
Unless you follow up some theory on quantum processes underlying the mental processes that is (which do exist, I seem to recall something about small enough nano-tubes in the dendrites(?) that might be influenced by quantum phenomena)
btw. I didn't even look at the article, but Iv'e read "the holographic universe" by m. talbot a while ago.

Sometimes a friend or teacher says or does the unpopular thing because he cares.
I feel like quoting Michael Shermer (editor of "The Sceptic"):
"What does it mean to have an open mind? It is to find the essential balance between orthodoxy and heresy, between a total commitment to the status quo and the blind pursuit of new ideas."
I am beginning to like this guy myself.


the over reliance on "hard science" is a purely cultural thing that has developed in the last few centuries.
As is any faith in spirits. Although it is a more primitive reality gloss. Do you believe in evolution? You cannot escape your cultural context. (see below)

If you believe in a soul then you must base that on something...
Most people base it, or in my mind *should* base it, on personal experience of some kind or other. One criticism of science that I agree with (although not completely) is that we rely so much on our measurement tools that we dismiss the human experience entirely. It might be that the human organism as a whole is able to experience /recieve signals that *so far* are out of bounds of our current technology.
(although the current theories about the divine experiences and their neurochemical causes are rather convincing)

In the end it is our human minds that interpret the results from our instruments, so *anything* willl be human-flavoured. I fear we will never know of anything truly objective as long as we remain humans.


Oh yeah, ever heard of a Borg?
Who is to say telepathy is to be achieved only by spiritual means? Or by spiritual means at all?
Certainly you cannot miss to see that this might be spirituality manifesting itself through technology? Even McKenna thought technology was the answer to his visual language and the transformation of mankind (if you subscribe to his views, he should certainly be far out enough for most of you).

But.......with telepathy, I consider it deep and strong affinity between persons.
I can go with that, but others have talked about highly SPECIFIC communication which is what I challenged.

I suppose this will be proven by science in the future. My own (infrequent) experience with this leads me to believe that it has something to do with brainwaves, and the emmitance and reception of them.

And to those who belive in the basic cosmic-ness of all things. Maybe "god" is trying to tell you something through swami? Maybe he's there to balance you. The more you fly off to an extreme, the more extreme the counterpart has to be in order to get you to the middle again...

Oh, and if nothing of this makes sense, I have a perfectly valid exlanation: My horoscope says I'm not at my most rational these days... :wink: 


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Timeleech]
    #576800 - 03/12/02 01:22 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

You guys have really made me see the light, so tell ya what i'm going to do:

Since my belief that tomorrow will come is only based on faith, i'm going to spend my money on every stupid thing i've ever wanted to buy, show up to work naked, and tell my boss to go fuck himself, and have unprotected sex with every girl that'll let me have sex with them. Fuck it. I have no concrete proof that i'll be alive tomorrow.

In fact, my friends and parents have always said that they love me, but that could all but untrue. I have no proof that they do, so i'm going to tell them to fuck off because they've tried to lie to me.

Also, I was having a good day today, and I was "happy", but since I can't prove that i'm actually happy, and not just deluded, I should have a shitty day to be on the safe side. After all, I can't prove that "happienss" even exists.

Nothing is true unless a scientist tells me it's true.

Now that's sarcasm!





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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #576822 - 03/12/02 01:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Haha ha! Quite funny, and although it's sarcastic, I'm going to quote myself:

"That isn't to say one shouldn't have faith in anything, but some people here might stray away from the middle way I myself think one does good in adopting"

I just felt very sceptic today. As far as I know no scientist knows how we transform the conscious decision to close out hand, into the actual action (I know, it's a cliche...). My mere hacking and slashing at my keyboard is an act not entirely supported by science...

Since my belief that tomorrow will come is only based on faith...
My similiar belief is based on the physical laws (gravitation->earth rotates sun), and the astronomical fact, nay, let me rather say observation to be safe, that we are relatively well shielded against any heavenly bodies interscecting earths path. Nuclear war doesn't seem imminent, neither do I know of any major threats that are likely to occur between now and 24:00.

Ah, I'm getting tired of this. Tomorrow I will announce that I am channeling the eschaton and trying to prepare humanity for the exteriorization of the soul and internalization of the body in the year 2012 :smile:


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Timeleech]
    #576864 - 03/12/02 02:31 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

People should stop having scientifically un-approved opinions in my opin.....I mean my.....oh shit, fuck it.



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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #576869 - 03/12/02 02:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

They should also stop having approved un-scientific opinions. You know what? Let's ban opinions completely! That woudl make things a lot easier in my op.. I mean, what the hell do I care?


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Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Timeleech]
    #576877 - 03/12/02 02:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well let's not go that far. How about we just a list from the Swami people on what we are allowed to have an opinion on. That would make Swami's job a lot easier.



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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #576882 - 03/12/02 02:49 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah! Great idea learyfan! Except... hmmm, that kinda sounds quite fascist. It would get rid of that cursed "thinking" everybody is talking about though...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #576903 - 03/12/02 03:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well let's not go that far. How about we just a list from the Swami people on what we are allowed to have an opinion on.
Emotionalism as a substitute for backing your viewpoint, how original!

The Swami people? Heh heh. Is that like the Elohim?

That would make Swami's job a lot easier.
Job? Ah yes, the shadow goverment pays me to do this.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Learyfan]
    #576923 - 03/12/02 03:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Swami, these concepts are far too complicated for the common man to be able to prove. Should we just give up hope because we can't prove it?
What does hope have to do with the existence or non-existence of anything? All I am asking is for someone to tell my WHY they believe something so that I may understand. But all I get is emotionalism and smoke and mirrors.

Come on man. You're really trying to put out the fire of hope in these people.
Here LF tries to play junior pyschologist in determining my motivation and fails miserably. In any event, my motivation is irrelevant as to why another believes in Alien contact. LF would rather talk about me as a way to sidestep any real discussion about the subject.

Swami what in the world do we really know without a shadow of a doubt?
More semantic juggling that says nothing.

I know you want people to base their theories on evidence, but when it comes to concepts like "is there a soul", you just have to believe, or not believe.
WHY? What is the basis? From where does this idea originate? I must believe because my ancestor believed and he believed because he was a bewildered monkey-man in an incomprehensible world?

I've done a lot of amature experiments with people and animals to not believe in a soul.
That's it? No explanation or elaboration? Ok, you convinced me with that compelling story.

Why don't you stop trying to crush people beliefs unless you have proof that they should believe otherwise.
I am guessing that this is a question. Who is crushing anything? The truth will stand up to the light. If there is no truth, the belief will scurry into the dark corner like a frightened cockroach.

If you have proof that there is no such thing as a soul, let us know.
Here LearyFan falls back on the pathetic "negative-proof" dodge (which has been covered extensively, but keeps rearing its tiny head) used so frequently by believers when they run out of steam



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Xlea321]
    #576935 - 03/12/02 03:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

swami, how much of what you regard as "science" do you think will be considered accurate in 1000 years?
There are two parts to science used interchangably, but are quite distinct. One is the scientific method of inquiry, which (while added to and refined) basically has not changed since it's inception. This has to do with observation, experimentation and repeatability. This will still be accurate in 1000 years.

The scientific body of knowledge is the other aspect and EVERYONE agrees will continue to evolve. Will water still be made out of hydrogen and oxygen - yes! Will our theories of the origins of the cosmos and physics change - most certainly.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Anonymous]
    #576946 - 03/12/02 03:50 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

know what I think....I think that this sort of meta-arguing is even more pointless than the usual arguing...
More pointless than pointless? Are there real degrees of pointlessness?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #576978 - 03/12/02 04:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

All I am asking is for someone to tell my WHY
they believe something so that I may understand.

People tell you why they believe in things all the time, and you always come back with..."prove it". I will say it again. NOONE here will be able to PROVE any of these highly complicated theories. WE ARE NOT SCIENTISTS, and shouldn't have to be in order to have an opinion or belief. You are telling us that these theories are completely invalid because we don't have proof.

But all I get is emotionalism and smoke and mirrors./semantic juggling
Seems to me, anytime you can't answer a question, you accuse the questioneer of doing this.

LF would rather talk about me as a way to sidestep any real
discussion about the subject.

I haven't sidestepped once. Just because you may not understand what someone means, then accuse them of "sidestepping" doesn't mean that they are

Swami what in the world do we really know without a shadow of a doubt?
More semantic juggling that says nothing.

Why doesn't that say anything?? You've got to come up with a better reply. There is very little that you know without a shadow of a doubt, so how can you say that someone's theory is wrong because they can't prove it without a shadow of a doubt.

Who is crushing anything? The truth will stand up to the light. If there is no truth, the
belief will scurry into the dark corner like a frightened cockroach.

WHAT TRUTH? That's the whole point. There is no absolute truth to a lot of these theories, and you're asking people to give it to you, and if they can't, then they are wrong.

If you have proof that there is no such thing as a soul, let us know.
Here LearyFan falls back on the pathetic "negative-proof" dodge (which has been covered extensively, but keeps rearing its
tiny head) used so frequently by believers when they run out of steam

I'm just asking you the exact same type of question you ask everyone else who has a unprovable theory, and you accuse me of using a negative proof dodge. That's a good tactic. If you can't answer a question, just accuse the person of sidestepping, or using negative proof etc etc.. I'm just asking you the same types of questions that you ask everyone else. That's all.

Imagine if you had theories that couldn't be proven Swami, and someone asks you to prove it over and over, and you know that you can never prove it. Wouldn't that get annoying? I was just showing you an example of how you treat people on this board. If everyone had to have concrete proof of ANYTHING that they say, noone would ever say anything. Something tells me you'd like it like that.



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Offlinepoopship
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #577046 - 03/12/02 05:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

so let me get this straight... in 1000 years, the scientific method will be the same? wheres your proof? why should i believe this? you seem quite justified in demanding reasons for others to defend their beliefs to your hard-lined materialism, but the opposite never happens... i mean, c'mon, every single breakthough in science happens by breaking the rules. relativity was not formulated by staying within the rules of newtonian physics, not by a long shot. every single advancement of science comes by breaking rules, its a fact of life. to say that science is any more or less based on faith than anything else is just playing favorites. you get results physically, others get theirs in other ways... can you verify right now that i'm feeling tired. of course not. does that mean my tiredness doesn't exist. of course not. its just not relagated to the field of "science." i mean, evolution, strictly speaking, is not science. science must be observable and reproducable, which evolution is clearly not. therefore, it is not science. does this mean it did or didn't happen? who knows? i sure dont. just because it is or is not science does not verify its authenticity. this is ridiculous.

all aboard
poopship


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #577079 - 03/12/02 06:07 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The Swami people? Heh heh. Is that like the Elohim?

Heh... precisely


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #577100 - 03/12/02 06:33 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"There are two parts to science used interchangably, but are quite distinct. One is the scientific method of inquiry, which (while added to and refined) basically has not changed since it's inception. This has to do with observation, experimentation and repeatability. This will still be accurate in 1000 years. "

Well, it's inception was really only 400 years ago. I wouldn't put too much faith it's gonna stay the same for the next 1000 years. Especially when we start getting to grips with the full meaning of quantum mechanics. Incidentally, if we consider observation, experimentation and repeatability a scientific method of enquiry then meeting aliens on mushrooms is absolute scientific fact as it can be repeated at will.

Yeah, science is good for certain things, but is absolutely useless (at this point in it's development) for explaining consciousness, the meaning of life or why we're all here. Meanwhile we all have a 13 billion cell, 40 billion neuron organism in our heads with a fully formed comprehensible explanation of the universe that can be accessed through psilocybin mushrooms. Maybe we should pay those ideas some attention.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (03/12/02 06:36 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: poopship]
    #577102 - 03/12/02 06:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

every single advancement of science comes by breaking rules, its a fact of life.
Not even remotely true, by anyone's defintion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepoopship
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Registered: 02/26/02
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Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #577120 - 03/12/02 06:48 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

sorry, i mistyped... like i said earlier, every BREAKTHOUGH in science breaks old rules. besides, i've yet to see you refute anybody's well though-out arguments that challenge yours, you just pick the weaks ones and the ones you want to hear. or just the mistakes. science studies the physical, mathematics studies the abstract, other things study other facets of reality... come on, you can't tell me that science proves math, and yet it exists, does it not? science is just preferred in this culture because yes, it does work! big fucking deal. other things work too, not just science. at its root, giving science precendence over anything else is just eurocentrism, which is funny, because the majority of practices in modern science are borrowed from other cultures anyhow.

all aboard
poopship


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: poopship]
    #577145 - 03/12/02 07:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

poopship:
"giving science precendence over anything else is just eurocentrism, which is
funny, because the majority of practices in modern science are borrowed from other
cultures anyhow."

Didn't you just contradict yourself in that sentence? Of what significance is "eurocentrism"
anyways? This is just another rediculous PC term which is full of emotion for the user of it,
but of little substance in a rational debate.


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Offlinepoopship
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Registered: 02/26/02
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #577248 - 03/12/02 08:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

to clarify

in the west, science is held on a pedestal. the scientific method is what got us all this progress, the very computers that we are using to communicate today. now, in the media and just generally in academia, the scientific method is spoken as this great achievement that nobody else thought of; western philosophy and european thought are the birth of this great accomplishment. holding this to a higher dergree because it is (or at least because it is considered of) european descent, is eurocentrism. putting an idea on a pedestal just because it is of the same culture as your own is what i'm talking about, and our culture stems from europe. now, the funny thing is, the majority of our scientific practices are a hodge-podge of practice from all over the world, from centuries of experimenting and doing things that had nothing to do with the scientific method. different tribes, different cultures all contributed to what we call modern science, yet it is (commonly) viewed as something stoic that we achieved on our own. so it is funny that science is eurocentric and yet has no right to be. does this make sense? it does to me, but i'm not always the best at getting whats in my head out to others (maybe i should become a college professor. ha)

all aboard
poopship


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: poopship]
    #577405 - 03/12/02 11:26 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

poopship:
"eurocentrism. putting an idea on a pedestal just because it is of the same culture as your own"

Who put the Scientific method on a pedestal because it is of European descent?
If people choose to use the scientific method it is because it works, it is because
it is sound. There are many things which have been validated by the scientifc method
which did not originate in Europe. Science is not Eurocentric any more than weaving
is Eurocentric. Science itself is value neutral, it is a method of determining the way
nature works. How the results are applied depend entirely upon what individuals do
with them, not on science.
----

poopship:
"the majority of our scientific practices..."

I don't know why you claim ownership of them when you hold them in such disregard.
-----

poopship:
"...are a hodge-podge of practice...

Modern scientific practices are hardly a "hodge-podge." What has worked in the past
has been kept, what has failed to work has been discarded.
-----

poopship:
"...from all over the world,..."

Is this what you mean by Eurocentric?
-----

poopship:
... from centuries of experimenting and doing things that had nothing to do with the
scientific method. "


If people are experimenting, testing the results of their experiments and
trying to reproduce their results, they are utilizing they scientific method whether
they they call it that or or not.
-----

poopship:
"...different tribes, different cultures all contributed to what
we call modern science,..."


Hardly sounds "Eurocentric" to me...
-----

poopship:
" yet it is (commonly) viewed as something stoic
that we achieved on our own.


Commonly...we...our? Who do you speak for? As far as stoic goes, many scientific
people are quite passionate about science. Have you heard of Pasteur, Semmelweis
or Lister?

----
poopship:
"it is funny that science is eurocentric and yet has no right to be"

That you anthorpomorphize science merely shows that you really don't understand it.
By claiming that science is "Eurocentric" you merely show that our so-called "educational"
system has achieved it's goal of cultural brainwashing by filling your mind with PC
pabum to be regurgitated when confronted with reason.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Registered: 03/15/01
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Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #577460 - 03/13/02 12:56 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The scientific method is a great thing, and it works very well in most situations, but I think it fails to describe a lot that is part of our universe. Specifically, the realms of personal experience. In order for a scientific theory to be validated, it needs to be reproducable. And by definition personal experiences are personal: they cannot be viewed by anyone else. But just because they can't be validated doesn't make them any less real. Science can't even touch these experiences, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be investigated.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #577525 - 03/13/02 02:18 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

well pastora, i wouldn't say shroom experiences are unrepeatable - i think they are very repeatable and accessible by anyone - just take the things and you experience it!!


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinepoopship
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Registered: 02/26/02
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #577551 - 03/13/02 02:52 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

first, skamaria, very well said. the only reason i'm even arguing this eurocentrism in science is to point out that there are in fact many many ways of doing things in this world to get results, not just the scientific method. what you have pointed out is indeed where this method falls short: human experience. experience (consciousness) is reality, not words and data. im just trying to point out how (or maybe why) people have become so reliant on the scientific method such that something that cannot be tested by science is completely ignored, as per swami's arguments.

ok, evolving, here is all im trying to say in terms of eurocentrism:
1. science is a very diverse conglomeration of practice from around the world.
2. science has indeed made progress and discovery possible much more than any other systematic way of approaching the world.
3. when recognizing this fact, people tend to focus on how great this science thing is, but attribution for this is solely given to the european cultures involved, not to the many many other contributions from other cultures.
4. this is an example of eurocentrism; ignoring credit where credit is due to perpetuate a myth of a "rugged individualist" science is in fact cultural centrism
5. this cultural centrism is propagated through the establisment and media into the masses to give a sense of pride of accopmlishment in every aspect of life, not just science. the only reason it is specifically relegated to science in my argument is because that is the only thing we're talking about here. if you want to talk about other types of eurocentrism, i'd be glad to, but you are apparently too defensive to be introspective of your own culture, unwilling to listen and immediately put the label "PC" on something that challenges your beliefs. the fact that we as Americans who believe in being free to do whatever we want are pumped full of pride in every aspect of our lives is insulting. we are supposed to be proud of everything we do because we are told that to do otherwise would be "un-American." I beg to differ; nothing could be further from being "American." The fact that we, as an industrialized society, force other societies to conform to our practices and look down on those who do not resemble our culture IS eurocentrism, which is in fact a result of brainwashing, just not the imaginary PC kind you have a disdain for. just because some tribe in the middle of the jungle doesnt have the luxuries that we do does not make them and less human than us, but that is a popular opinion (conscious or not) of "civilized" people.

all aboard
poopship


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #577569 - 03/13/02 03:13 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The scientific method in and of itself cannot describe things. What is necessary is for
human creativity to be used and develope ways in which the scientific method can be
applied in the exploration and verification of your human experiences. All science
begins with human observation, but observations are often colored by preconceived
notions, personal desires, prejudices and biochemical/neurological states. This
is where the application of scientific methods are of value, they can help you test your
perception of experiences and explanations you may have come up with regarding the
experiences.

Your concept of "real" is based upon your internal mental representation of the universe.
This is not the same as the actual universe, it is a model and as with any model, it is
not what it describes. This model can be greatly distorted by altering brain chemistry,
physical trauma to the nervous system and/or application of electrical stimuli. The
distorted model created by these influences cannot logically be assumed to be
objectively "real" without being able to verify the model. To do so shows an ignorance
of the nature of what is occuring within the brain when these influences alter it's
functioning.


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: poopship]
    #577595 - 03/13/02 04:24 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

This has nothing to do with culture or Eurocentrism, to equate the scientic method
with a perceived social ill is a non-sequitur and does nothing to bolster your
arguments. Do you assume that only European cultures have scientifically
minded people? If so, then you have a very narrow viewpoint of the world.
As the easiest example, a quick perusal of the nature of the development
of some martial arts would open your eyes that other cultures have applied
scientific methods to their endeavors.

It makes no sense that you should insist on trying to bolster your arguments by
relying on the straw man of Eurocentrism. You know nothing of me or my
degree of introspection, you just find it convenient to throw out labels and
platitudes that have no relevency to the object of persuading others to see
your point of view. I did not put the label PC on something that challenges my
beliefs. I placed it on the concept of placing blame on Eurocentrism.
You are projecting onto me things which are way off base, you have no idea
about me and it shows. Bringing up the idea that "we... force other societies
to conform to our practices and look down on those who do not resemble our
culture"
says a lot about you but says nothing about me.

I am willing to listen if you would actually attempt to present a persuasive
argument. You're not preaching to the choir. So stop, take a deep breath
and ask yourself, "how can I frame my argument so as to prompt a scientifically
minded person to pause and consider what I have to say?"


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #577794 - 03/13/02 12:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"This model can be greatly distorted by altering brain chemistry"

This assumes that you know the model you are "distorting" it from has anymore validity than the "distorted" state. We don't.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Xlea321]
    #577847 - 03/13/02 01:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

What I stated previously still applies, "... observations are often colored by
preconceived notions, personal desires, prejudices and biochemical/
neurological states. This is where the application of scientific methods
are of value, they can help you test your perception of experiences
and explanations you may have come up with regarding the experiences."

These principles are applicable to normal mental states as well as altered
mental states. There are certain groups of Catholic believers who 'see'
a statue of the virgin Mary crying or a crucifix bleeding. These individuals
are experiencing this reality without any outside chemical or physical
influences.The statue or crucifix can easily be tested to verify the validity
of their perceptions.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #577865 - 03/13/02 02:14 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The analogy doesn't really work. If you assume there is no water running down the statue from some source then it isn't a repeatable verifiable fact. Mushrooms or ayahuasca produce scientifically repeatable experiences accessible to pretty much everyone whenever they so desire. That isn't the same as one person saying they can see something that most people can't.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Xlea321]
    #578252 - 03/14/02 12:01 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Alex123:
"The analogy doesn't really work. If you assume there is no water running
down the statue from some source then it isn't a repeatable verifiable fact."


I'm not sure what you mean. The point of the example was merely to illustrate
that you should apply the same principles to a 'normal' mental condition, not
only altered states of consciousness. This was in reference to your earlier
statements:
"This assumes that you know the model you are "distorting" it from has
anymore validity than the "distorted" state. We don't."

-----

Alex123:
"Mushrooms or ayahuasca produce scientifically repeatable experiences
accessible to pretty much everyone whenever they so desire"


Yes, most pharmacological substances produce scientifically repeatable
experiences. Are you suggesting that because of this, those experiences
should be the basis of an individual's belief system? Putting electrodes in
certain areas of a person's cerebral cortex will cause that individual to
'hear' a sound. This could be repeated with other humans as well. Is the
sound that these people experience actually there?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #578355 - 03/14/02 02:27 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The point of the example was merely to illustrate
that you should apply the same principles to a 'normal' mental condition

Yes but we're not talking about lunatics with mental conditions. We're talking about sane people.

I'm not saying it should be the basis of your belief system, i'm saying you should look at what we have available and make your own mind up. No scientist has the foggiest clue about why life exists, why consciousness exists, why the universe exists. They don't even begin to address the question. Meanwhile we have a very mysterious 13 billion cell structure in our heads that has a scientifically repeatable structured experience stored somewhere in it that offers knowledge which is accessible by mushrooms. Now you can either write that off as "It's all an accident, a hallucination", just like the universe was just an accident and life was just an accident and consciousness was just an accident. Or you can realise that perhaps human beings havn't worked out all the answers to the universe in 400 years.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinepoopship
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Registered: 02/26/02
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ]
    #579068 - 03/14/02 09:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

evolving
i first of all, please accept my apology for anything i implied about you, you're right, i don't know you (for all i know you're a 12 year-old french girl!). i guess i've just been cooped up in the house for too long with nobody to talk to for a few days, so my rants were a little on the fiesty side. anyhow, i do wish to offer an apology. now, back to the "argument"...
here is where i am coming from: science has enabled us to make progress in many areas that were unthinkable even just a century ago. these advancements have had some impact, positive and negative, on our lifestyles. thats all fine and dandy. but for somebody to argue against things because they can't be tested with the scientific method involves no less faith than any other individual's faith system. if one argues that only things that can be measured using the scientific principle (i.e. physical things) then that person has a faith in materialism. materialism can't be proven with science, because those are exactly the bounds of science. therefore, one must recognize the limitations of the system they are using. using science, we cannot answer "why" questions, only "how" questions. thus, to say that, just because we can't find certain answers with science, they can't be found at all, is to completely leave out all kinds of exploring you can do beyond the bounds of logic and reason. take meditation for example. "the proof is in the pudding" my hinduism professor would say. its an endeavor that is right there for you to practice and experience for yourself, revealing many things that can't be touched with science, only pure experience. well, thats how i see it anyway. your criticism of this is welcome

all aboard
poopship


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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Registered: 07/15/01
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Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: Swami]
    #584436 - 03/20/02 06:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)





That is all fine, but the idea MUST originate from somewhere and have some compelling reason to adopt such an outlook. I wasn't talking about proving, but in basing one's outlook and approach to life on something ephemeral.

It would be nice, aye? IF you want the source, you'll have to look for it in your own way. Yes, it would be. There many ways to feel and experience. It really depends on the person's level of understanding to express them as best as she/he can. Hopefully, people gradually refine it from maturity, see with clarity for what it is or not.

**I see it as remembering the 'ephemeral' moments as timeless to me.

[]bIf it is just parroting what you were taught in church/temple or book; if you are merely adopting another's view, to me that is a sign of weaknes and laziness.

Nope, it is not. I rarely see any material about "Souls" in the religions I've seen here. I don't see it as a weakness if adopting views will help the person. It's only clinging to or using defective views is problematic.

I can go with that, but others have talked about highly SPECIFIC communication which is what I challenged.

I'm out of the loop here. I could see that personal specifics are the domain of the communicators. Any details outside is debatable.

Here you are incorrectly identifying science with the brain-washing that goes on in medical schools and institutions. Yes, science is taught there, but so are prevailing and limiting attitudes which have nothing to do with science, but social acceptance and in maintaining the "priesthood" status of being a doctor.

Ahh, but they're trained one way logically. I do not mean it as brain-washing, more limited, through training, their style of providing medical care. All I can say they suck in the intuitive department.

However, note that western science is generally FAR more efficacious in treating trauma and illness than your local "intuitive" shaman (entheogenic or otherwise).

The people here come across as neither more nor less advanced than any other group of people that I have met. (see my second quote.)


Our health care system sucks lemons [Canada]. It's great for efficacy in the name of Western Science, but the problem is availability and effectiveness. Generally, when sick people are fed up with the medical community, they have no choice but to look into alternatives. It's pretty much a leap of faith since hard evidence and facts of such modalities are hard to come by. And I'm not comparing about who's better or not. It's about gifted *intuitives* I've came across. I usually agree with them instead of the docs' diagnosis. It's not that I prefer it. Those intuitives pick up facts that I already know, without me telling them.

Potential? What the hell does that mean? Where are the ACTUAL benefits? Not some maybes, mights and coulds, but some REAL postitve changes?

It means it's up to the person to cultivate it. I cannot give you a definite methodology of "How to get the benefits." The drug is just a tool. The potential can be bad or good, or both. The drug is the *potential* catalyst, while the rest of the potential really depends on the person. And what is that potential? Shortcut to SATORI.


Timeleech: You got it.. Who knows... Kundalini-powered spaceships. Chaos magick-derived warp engines. Total Psionic-driven navigation. hehe


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Swami/Shroomism relations [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #584589 - 03/20/02 09:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

[bIt means it's up to the person to cultivate it. I cannot give you a definite methodology of "How to get the benefits."

Let me rephrase the question. What specific benefits have YOU gotten from your journeys? I would like to hear of something positive that affected other areas of your outward life. Not just something like, "Now I appreciate life more.", but more like "Because of my increased apprectiation for the sancitiy of life, I did or experienced such and such...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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